Hail Mary

[BibleWords]

I hear “Hail Mary” as well. 
It is nothing less than the worship of Mary.

What did Jesus say to Satan?

Matt. 4:10–“Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence , Satan for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.”

I worship no one but the Lord God.

No “Hail Mary” for me.

[Roymond]

On 5/2/2023 at 3:55 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I repeatedly hear, “Hail Mary, full of grace.”

 

^{. . . .}

Where in the Bible does it teach Mary is full of grace, replacing Jesus?

 

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I don 't know where you got "replacing Jesus", but "Hail Mary, full of grace" is a quote from Luke 1:28 with Mary's name inserted so the quote tells us who the angel is talking to.  The Greek word is κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitoemenay); the "chari" in the middle is "charis", the word for grace;  it's a perfect passive participle and can be translated in several ways; back when translations were first being made into English it would have been best translated as "[you] having been perfectly filled with grace".

This is one of the places where scripture seems to treat grace as something that has substance of some kind since if you can be perfectly filled with grace then presumably you can be only mostly filled or poorly filled.  Later translations rendered it as "highly favored one" or "highly favored with grace".

The problem with taking the salutation in English without the context is that it gives the impression that maybe Mary was naturally filled with grace because it leaves out the passive aspect of the participle which indicates that the one being addressed was filled with grace not by her own nature but from outside, specifically by God (since use of the passive in such a sentence was used by the ancient Hebrews to suggest that God was at work).

It's also one of the sources of the silly notion that Mary had to have been born sinless on the basis that a sinner couldn't be perfectly filled with grace.  What's overlooked in that is that she was literally filled with grace the moment Jesus arrived as a single cell in her womb since He's the one through whom all grace comes -- so the greeting is also the instrument of her being filled with grace:  Gabriel said it, and it was so since he was passing on God's declaration.

[ChristB4us]

On 5/2/2023 at 6:55 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I repeatedly hear, “Hail Mary, full of grace.”

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast. [emphasis mine]

Grace - ⓐ     act., that which one grants to another, the action of one who volunteers to do someth. not otherwise obligatory χάρις θεοῦ ἦν ἐπʼ αὐτό Lk 2:40.

          •        —Esp. of the beneficent intention of God and of Christ, who give (undeserved) gifts to people; God:

          •        δικαιούμενοι δωρεὰν τῇ αὐτοῦ χάριτι Ro 3:24.

          •        Cp. 5:15a, 20f; 6:1; 11:5 (ἐκλογή 1), 6abc; Gal 1:15 (διά A 3e); Eph 1:6f (KKuhn, NTS 7, ’61, 337 [reff. to Qumran lit.]); 2:5, 7, 8; ^[1]

In short, unmerited and undeserved favor.

⁴ Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. ⁵ His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Where in the Bible does it teach Mary is full of grace, replacing Jesus?

 

---

^[1] Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000: 1079. Print.

Nowhere does the Bible even hints that Mary will replace Jesus as the God to pray to.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

That leaves out the patron saints and the indwelling Holy Ghost even though the Holy Ghost is God of the Triune God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

It is by the only way of the Son, we can pray to God the Father by as Jesus Christ is given the power to answer prayers.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth....20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

For some that may contend that they have received answers to prayers and even supernatural phenomenon will visit them by praying to the Holy Ghost, BUT do remember that Catholics have said the same for the "virgin" Mary & the departed saints.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Let no thief come in between you and the Bridegroom les you commit spiritual adultery and that includes tongues for private use.

[Roymond]

On 5/3/2023 at 4:52 AM, Neighbor said:

With credit to EWTN comes the following presentation from Pope Francis who addressed the question. [No I am not Roman Catholic. I am simply sharing of a answer given by a Roman Catholic Pope.]

Why Mary Is Full of Grace

Author: Pope Francis

It Is Sin That Makes Us Old

Pope Francis

The Pontiff explains why Mary is full of grace

"What does 'full of grace' mean? That Mary is filled with the presence of God ... there is no room within her for sin". The Pope explained this at the Angelus which he recited with the faithful in Saint Peter's Square on Friday, 8 December [2017], the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. The following is a translation of the Holy Father's reflection, which he delivered in Italian.

Dear Brothers and Sisters, Good morning and happy Feast Day!

Today we are contemplating the beauty of Mary Immaculate. The Gospel, which recounts the episode of the Annunciation, helps us to understand what we are celebrating, above all through the Angel’s greeting. He addresses Mary with a word that is not easy to translate, which means “filled with grace”, “created by grace”, “full of grace” (Lk 1:28). Before calling her ‘Mary’, he calls her full of grace, and thus reveals the new name that God has given her and which is more becoming to her than the name given to her by her parents. We too call her in this way, with each Hail Mary.

What does full of grace mean? That Mary is filled with the presence of God. And if she is entirely inhabited by God, there is no room within her for sin. It is an extraordinary thing, because everything in the world, regrettably, is contaminated by evil. Each of us, looking within ourselves, sees dark sides. Even the greatest saints were sinners and everything in reality, even the most beautiful things, are corroded by evil: everything, except Mary. She is the one “evergreen oasis” of humanity, the only one uncontaminated, created immaculate so as to fully welcome, with her ‘yes’, God who came into the world and thus to begin a new history.

Each time we acknowledge her as full of grace, we give her the greatest compliment, the same one God had given her. A beautiful compliment to give to a woman and to tell her, politely, that she looks youthful. When we say full of grace to Mary, in a certain sense we are telling her this too, at the highest level. In fact we recognize her as forever youthful, because she never aged through sin. There is only one thing that makes us age, grow old interiorly: not age, but sin. Sin ages, because it hardens the heart. It closes it, renders it inert, withers it. But she, full of grace, is without sin. So she is always youthful; she is “younger than sin” and is “the youngest of humankind” (G. Bernanos, Diario di un curato di campagna, ii, 1988, p. 175).

The Church today compliments herself with Mary by calling her ‘all fair’, tota pulchra. Just as her youth does not lie in age, her beauty does not consist in her outward appearance. Mary, as today’s Gospel reading shows us, does not stand out in appearance: from a simple family, she lived humbly in Nazareth, a village practically unknown. And she wasn’t well-known: even when the Angel visited her, no one knew of it; there were no reporters there that day. Nor did Our Lady have a comfortable life, but worries and fears: she was “greatly troubled” (v. 29), the Gospel says, and when the Angel “departed from her” (v. 38), her troubles mounted.

However, she, full of grace, lived a beautiful life. What was her secret? We can understand it by looking again at the scene of the Annunciation. In many paintings Mary is depicted as seated before the Angel with a small book in her hand. This book is the Scripture. Thus, Mary was accustomed to listening to God and interacting with him. The Word of God was her secret: close to her heart, it then became flesh in her womb. By dwelling with God, in dialogue with him in every circumstance, Mary made her life beautiful. Not appearances, not what is fleeting, but the heart directed toward God makes life beautiful. Today let us look joyfully at her, full of grace. Let us ask her to help us to remain youthful, by saying ‘no’ to sin, and to live a beautiful life, by saying ‘yes’ to God. 

L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English 
15 December 2017, page 7

 

The real problem is in the words I highlighted in purple and bold and larger text:  it's bad Christology no matter how they repackage it, because it makes God cruel:  if God could make Mary born without sin, He could do the same for everyone and thus free us of the suffering that sin causes in us.  It's also bad because it means that Mary is an alien in terms of human experience, and is no example for us at all.  If she was without sin, then her choice to accept Gabriel's announcement is meaningless because there was no indecision to overcome, no resistance to the plan.  If she was without sin, then she is  no example of accepting the will of God, and certainly not an example for all the rest of us whose sinly flesh rebels at submission; in fact her submission is meaningless for us because it is something totally different than the submission we have to make.  In short, if Mary was without sin her receiving her Savior is meaningless to us and we must look elsewhere for our example.

An argument could be made that once the Incarnate Word manifested in her womb she was made sinless since bearing within her the Word made flesh was like being the Holy of Holies, but as with the Temple which was not holy until God's presence filled it she was no more holy than the rest of us until Christ was conceived within her.  And such an argument would make her a supreme example of submission to God, showing us that a sinner like us can indeed become a temple of God, not in the same way she was but still a temple.

There's another common phrase from Roman Catholic prayers:  "Mother Mary, pray for us".  But if she was sinless from conception, how can she be in any way our mother?  We are born infected with death and thus with sin, which would not be the case if she was our mother if she had no sin.  And if she was sinless, of what use are her prayers, since she has no understanding from her own experience of what we live in and with every hour of every day?  But if she was an ordinary sinner right up until Gabriel announced God's plan to her, then she knows exactly what we deal with and on top of that she knows what it is to be fully sanctified!  It's no use arguing that since Jesus was sinless then He couldn't understand our condition; that would only be true if he never had to deal with sin, which He actually did even before He had a human brain to think with because His Mother was an ordinary sinner up to His arrival in her womb -- and He could grasp the reality of that with His divine mind that didn't need a brain to understand with.

I like to think of Mary as my mother in the faith because as a sinner her decision is the same one we all have to make, to surrender to God's will and to have our Savior 'born' in us, and as the first to do so she is the pioneer of our path, the example for us every single moment as we must continually say, "Let it be done to me according to Your word".  I even find it edifying to think of her as never sinning again once Jesus was conceived in her because it makes her an example of what Christ's presence in us will ultimately do.  But if she was sinless, then she isn't any of that and is useless to me.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Roymond
somehow there were over a hundred blank lines following my answer so I had to delete them

[Roymond]

On 5/3/2023 at 5:28 AM, BibleWords said:

I hear “Hail Mary” as well. 
It is nothing less than the worship of Mary.

What did Jesus say to Satan?

Matt. 4:10–“Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence , Satan for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.”

I worship no one but the Lord God.

No “Hail Mary” for me.

There's nothing wrong with "Hail, Mary" -- it's just really old language for "Hi, Mary", or as a seminary professor I knew put it once, "Yo, Mary!"  There's not even anything wrong with calling her "full of grace", since that's right out of Luke.  The problem arises when it comes to the words "pray for us sinners", because that phrase suggests that she wasn't a sinner.

Here's the full text of the prayer:

Quote

Hail, Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death. 
Amen.

The first four lines are taken from scripture.  The fifth line is derived from scripture.  The sixth line is just a request we could make of any other Christian, except for that last adjective because it strongly suggests that we are sinners but she wasn't (of course she isn't now, but that's true of anyone who has died in the Lord).  But while the seventh line is even something we might put in a prayer request to another Christian, in the context of the idea that Mary wasn't a sinner it transforms into near-idolatry as though her prayer would be the one we really, really need.

Sure, she's Jesus' mom, but does that make her requests of God more impactful than those of any other believer?

[ChristB4us]

29 minutes ago, Roymond said:

In short, if Mary was without sin her receiving her Savior is meaningless to us and we must look elsewhere for our example.

An argument could be made that once the Incarnate Word manifested in her womb she was made sinless since bearing within her the Word made flesh was like being the Holy of Holies, but as with the Temple which was not holy until God's presence filled it she was no more holy than the rest of us until Christ was conceived within her.  And such an argument would make her a supreme example of submission to God, showing us that a sinner like us can indeed become a temple of God, not in the same way she was but still a temple.

There's another common phrase from Roman Catholic prayers:  "Mother Mary, pray for us".  But if she was sinless from conception, how can she be in any way our mother?  We are born infected with death and thus with sin, which would not be the case if she was our mother if she had no sin.  And if she was sinless, of what use are her prayers, since she has no understanding from her own experience of what we live in and with every hour of every day?  But if she was an ordinary sinner right up until Gabriel announced God's plan to her, then she knows exactly what we deal with and on top of that she knows what it is to be fully sanctified!  It's no use arguing that since Jesus was sinless then He couldn't understand our condition; that would only be true if he never had to deal with sin, which He actually did even before He had a human brain to think with because His Mother was an ordinary sinner up to His arrival in her womb -- and He could grasp the reality of that with His divine mind that didn't need a brain to understand with.

I like to think of Mary as my mother in the faith because as a sinner her decision is the same one we all have to make, to surrender to God's will and to have our Savior 'born' in us, and as the first to do so she is the pioneer of our path, the example for us every single moment as we must continually say, "Let it be done to me according to Your word".  I even find it edifying to think of her as never sinning again once Jesus was conceived in her because it makes her an example of what Christ's presence in us will ultimately do.  But if she was sinless, then she isn't any of that and is useless to me.

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary needed the Saviour as much as anyone else did for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Quote

There's another common phrase from Roman Catholic prayers:  "Mother Mary, pray for us".  But if she was sinless from conception, how can she be in any way our mother? 

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.  47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

So Jesus has more than one mother.

The problem here is Jesus is the only Mediator between God and men because all power has been given unto Him for Him to answer prayers so that the father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.... 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Who did Mary pray to after His ascension?  Jesus Christ as He alone is at that throne of grace by Whom we pray to God the Father by.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Mary cannot do what Jesus can do because she is not God.

The truth is she was a good wife to Joseph and had other children by him after Jesus was born so that notion of her remaining forever a virgin is pure fiction.

Matthew 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Mark 6:1 And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him. 2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. 4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

So Mary did not stay a virgin after the birth of Jesus as she was a good wife and good mother to Jesus and the children after Him.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Apparently the Catholic Church had forgotten that as well as what happens when they stop honoring only Jesus Christ in worship.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Mary honored Jesus Christ and so should we.  There is no necessity to honor Mary when that is not how we are to honor the Father, but there is necessity to only honor the Son if we wish to honor the Father in worship, prayer, and fellowship as Jesus is the only way to the Father for all things for He is God.  Mary is not God.

 

[Vine Abider]

I have the local RCC channel as a preprogrammed button on my car radio, and will listen to it from time to time if there's nothing on any of the other Christian radio stations.  From time to time the speaking can be pretty good and doesn't get into the Mary thing.  Being steeped in scripture for 30-40 years has made me learn the real thing pretty well, to the point that when a counterfeit is presented it is usually apparent.  But when they start with the Mary thing, or telling someone to ask a particular patron "saint" to intercede on a matter, it really doesn't take much discernment to know how anti-scripture this stuff is!  It is full-on heresy that the RCC just made up, and now the erroneous traditions of men have completely supplanted scripture.

We love those in the RCC, but the system is not of God.

[Sower]

1 hour ago, Roymond said:

There's another common phrase from Roman Catholic prayers:  "Mother Mary, pray for us".

One we learned as young catholics was "To Jesus through Mary with a smile"
Implying our prayers had to first go through Mary before they reached Jesus.
Took me years to get that phrase outta my head.

[other one]

56 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

We love those in the RCC, but the system is not of God.

Amen to that

[Starise]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:05 AM, Selah7 said:

The whore is actually a city.   It’s Babylon (confusion)!  It’s a “city”!  

A city within a city a country withing a country. The vatican.