613 Laws : We Read in the New Testament about Sins that will Keep Us from Heaven : How do those Sins connect to the 613 Laws?

[farouk]

1 hour ago, NConly said:

Did I say other wise?

There is one book.

There are two Covenants, imo they are mutually exclusive.

what is the worth of writing them in ones heart if they return to the written law.

@ Corin 3:

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

Very interesting and far reaching passage there................

[NConly]

1 hour ago, farouk said:

Very interesting and far reaching passage there................

I think so many times I give the wrong impression of what I believe. I don't won't to make long post that no one reads. Seems my short post  don't give enough information. I do not have any training I just read for myself to learn and decide what I believe. I am open to being corrected.

[farouk]

14 hours ago, NConly said:

I think so many times I give the wrong impression of what I believe. I don't won't to make long post that no one reads. Seems my short post  don't give enough information. I do not have any training I just read for myself to learn and decide what I believe. I am open to being corrected.

@NConly Likewise ppl sometimes don't get where I am coming from during discussions, but as discussions proceed during which Christians encourage and help one another, seeing other ppl's viewpoints will involve complexity sometimes and I find I often need patience, right?

[Neighbor]

16 hours ago, farouk said:

There are two Covenants, imo they are mutually exclusive

Hi, I suggest that there are at least seven covenants, some unilateral, some conditional. All require the will of God, but not necessarily the will of man to do Gods will. 

Are any exclusive, are all exclusive? I guess that depends a bit upon one's vantage point from which to see them all. I see the work of my Lord and savior yeshua to be a stepping up in demand by God to a freedom for sure, but a higher responsibility too. For even the thought of doing the sin is now declared a sin. Oops, how do I not think sinfully? I likely break most of the ten commandments on a daily basis  in my mind's thoughts. My salvation from that  plight is Yeshua his covering my shame in His own blood shed  upon the earth at Calvary.

In that and by that alone I am freed of my sin's price which is death, eternal death. Little else matters much by comparison.

[farouk]

Just now, Neighbor said:

Hi, I suggest that there are at least seven covenants, some unilateral, some conditional. All require the will of God, but not necessarily the will of man to do Gods will. 

Are any exclusive, are all exclusive? I guess that depends a bit upon one's vantage point from which to see them all. I see the work of my Lord and savior yeshua to be a stepping up in demand by God to a freedom for sure, but a higher responsibility too. For even the thought of doing the sin is now declared a sin. Oops, how do I not think sinfully? I likely break most of the ten commandments on a daily basis  in my mind's thoughts. My salvation from that  plight is Yeshua his covering my shame in His own blood shed  upon the earth at Calvary.

In that and by that alone I am freed of my sin's price which is death, eternal death. Little else matters much by comparison.

@Neighbor I see what you mean to some extent; I was really thinking in the contrast between the old and the new in for example Hebrews 7, where we see the law was changed (7.12) and what we now have is better than the law (7.19).

[Neighbor]

Just now, farouk said:

@Neighbor I see what you mean to some extent; I was really thinking in the contrast between the old and the new in for example Hebrews 7, where we see the law was changed (7.12) and what we now have is better than the law (7.19).

And yet; without my knowing of the master that was the law of Moses Covenant,  and that I am  freed from it by my Lord's mercy and sacrifice I would be hanging in thin air so to speak.

There would be no reason known  to me for the sacrifice willingly made by Yeshua,  the sacrifice that has paid the total price of my shame and sin against God. My reliance on the faith of Jesus ( Yeshua) would have little  or no basis in fact. It would be without any basis at all, just a kind of wishful thinking or mere fanaticizing.

With the entirety of the Word of God  and the reveal of Jesus   called the Bible, I  do have basis for my reliance on the faith of Jesus. Did I know of it all from the beginning of my own sojourn when the Holy Spirit turned me about ? No! But it was there for me to learn and to enable me to grow in and under that grace that mercy from everlasting to everlasting of God extended to me, me personally!

[Retrobyter]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:25 PM, JimmyB said:

I think that I agree with you, but I'm not sure.

You wrote "The laws Jesus wants to write onto our hearts are the same laws written in the Hebrew Bible", then ended your post with "We are not under the Law. We are under Christ, who is the Lawgiver".  To me, these statements are contradictory.

Shalom, JimmyB.

Actually, the two statements are not contradictory. It's just that the Law written upon our hearts, containing the same commandments as written in the Hebrew Bible were kept IN CHRIST! IN THE MESSIAH! HE kept them all without breaking any! The only commandments which Christ "gave," or rather, "emphasized" are the ones to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love others as oneself, which are ALSO written in the Hebrew Bible!

Because the Messiah kept all the commandments and still died as our sacrificial Lamb of God, He became our "SIN" on the cross and suffered God's wrath poured out on SIN! Now, we can become His "RIGHTEOUSNESS" (actually, GOD'S "RIGHTEOUSNESS" in the Messiah), and God can JUSTIFY us completely for ALL our sins, past, present, and FUTURE, DECLARING us to be His "RIGHTEOUSNESS!" We are not "Just" on our own merits; we are "JUSTIFIED" by God!

On 5/12/2023 at 1:25 PM, JimmyB said:

To me, we are under under the law -- a set of written instructions that define how we should behave -- or we are guided by the Holy Spirit.  The first is external, the second is internal, i.e., "written on our hearts".  Personally I find it very difficult to refer to an external rulebook to determine which actions are appropriate and which are not.  That is being governed by my mind.  Instead, I let my conscience guide me, which I believe is consistent with what is meant by being guided by the Holy Spirit.

It helps to understand what "Torah" means. "Torah" doesn't mean the "Law"; it means "INSTRUCTION!"

For instance, when Noach came off the ark, we read,

Genesis 9:1-5 (KJV)

1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which isthe blood thereof, shall ye not eat. 5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man."

Now, mankind could eat meat. Before the Flood, it wasn't that way:

Genesis 1:29-30 (KJV)

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat": and it was so.

Then, in the giving of the Law, God put further restrictions on what the children of Israel could eat (clean) and what they could not eat (unclean)! Pork, for instance, was considered an unclean meat, the flesh of a pig. This includes what we now call ham, bacon, sausage, pork chops, many barbecue dishes, etc. 

But, the life cycle and anatomy of the tape worm, for instance, was not described until 400 years ago:

"Surprisingly, it was not until the late 17th century that the detailed anatomy of the worm was described, first by Edward Tyson, an English physician (258), and shortly afterward by the Italian Francesco Redi, who described the worms in his book Osservazioni Intorno Agli Animali Viventi che si Trovano Negli Animali Viventi, one of the first books on parasitology (223). These two publications, together with that of Tyson on the tapeworms of humans (257), can be considered to mark the beginnings of the subdiscipline of helminthology, which reached a peak in the 19th century."

And,

'The scientific study of the taeniid tapeworms of humans can be traced to the late 17th century and the observations of Edward Tyson on the tapeworms of humans, dogs, and other animals (257). Tyson was the first person to recognize the “head” (scolex) of a tapeworm, and his subsequent descriptions of the anatomy and physiology of the adult worms laid the foundations for our knowledge of the biology of the taeniid tapeworms of humans. Although by this time it had become clear that there were differences between the broad tapeworm (see below) and the other tapeworms that we now know to be taeniids, the distinctions between T. solium and T. saginata were not obvious. These worms continued to be confused long after the work of Tyson, and although Goeze (see below) in 1782 had suspected that there were two species (98), it was not until the middle of the 19th century that Küchenmeister is credited with recognizing the differences between T. solium and T. saginata based on the morphology of the scolex (144). In 1784, the first indications that intermediate hosts were involved in the life cycles of taeniid tapeworms emerged from the detailed studies of the pork tapeworm by a German pastor, Johann August Ephraim Goeze, who observed that the scolices of the tapeworm in humans resembled cysts in the muscle of pigs (99, 136). Some 70 years later, Küchenmeister, in much-criticized experiments, fed pig meat containing the cysticerci of T. solium to criminals condemned to death and recovered adult tapeworms from the intestine after they had been executed (143, 145, 146). Shortly afterward, in 1868 to 1869, J. H. Oliver observed that T. saginata tapeworm infections occurred in individuals who had eaten “measly” beef (207), and this was confirmed by the Italian veterinarian Edoardo Perroncito in 1877 (214).

'The adult stages of T. solium and T. saginata rarely cause any overt signs or symptoms, and there are no early descriptions of diseases that might be caused by these tapeworms. On the other hand, humans are host to two important kinds of larval tapeworm, cysticerci of the pork tapeworm T. solium and hydatid cysts of the dog tapeworm Echinococcus granulosus. The encysted larvae, cystercerci, of T. solium in the flesh of pigs, known as “measly pork,” were well known to the ancient Greeks and are referred to by Aristotle (384 to 322 BC), who, in the section on diseases of pigs in his History of Animals, gives a detailed and accurate account of “bladders that are like hailstones” (202). Although the cysts in the muscle cause no obvious illness in humans, cysts in the brain can cause symptoms resembling epilepsy, and these must have been apparent in early civilizations. However, there is nothing in the encyclopedic works of Hippocrates to suggest that the Greek physicians knew that humans harbored such cysts or suffered from any conditions associated with them. There is, however, indirect evidence from different cultures that people were aware of the possible dangers inherent in eating the flesh of pigs. Küchenmeister comments that infections with cysticerci are not found in those, such as Jews and Muslims, whose religious beliefs forbid the consumption of pork (144), but as we have already seen, similar arguments have been put forward with respect to Trichinella spiralis infections.'

See History of Human Parasitology.

These studies have shown the link between tapeworms in humans and the eating of infected pigs.

The American FDA does a phenomenal job of keeping tainted meat out of human consumption, but it's still possible to injest it from meat that "slipped by" or by hunting boars and eating their meat (which is still a popular sport among rednecks here in Florida).

So, God's INSTRUCTION to the children of Israel was to LIMIT what kinds of meat they could eat, and although He doesn't give His reason for why He did, I still believe that it's because God was protecting them from these parasites.

On 5/12/2023 at 1:25 PM, JimmyB said:

Is what I am doing motivated by my love for others or by my seeking what is best for me personally?  I strongly believe that all my needs are fulfilled by Christ, so that I have the ability and the strength to make the lives of others better.  That starts with the family that God has given me and extends from there to others.

All of our needs ARE fulfilled by the Messiah; however, He also gave us a brain and a history of medical knowledge that says, "Yeah, you can technically eat whatever meat you want, but it's a GOOD IDEA to follow God's INSTRUCTION!" And, it's also a good idea to follow many other commandments in God's Law found in the Torah.

[NConly]

15 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, I suggest that there are at least seven covenants, some unilateral, some conditional. All require the will of God, but not necessarily the will of man to do Gods will. 

Are any exclusive, are all exclusive? I guess that depends a bit upon one's vantage point from which to see them all. I see the work of my Lord and savior yeshua to be a stepping up in demand by God to a freedom for sure, but a higher responsibility too. For even the thought of doing the sin is now declared a sin. Oops, how do I not think sinfully? I likely break most of the ten commandments on a daily basis  in my mind's thoughts. My salvation from that  plight is Yeshua his covering my shame in His own blood shed  upon the earth at Calvary.

In that and by that alone I am freed of my sin's price which is death, eternal death. Little else matters much by comparison.

Hi Neighbor

I would not want someone else being looked upon for something I said. If Im not mistaken I am the one that posted the mutually exclusive remark.

[farouk]

7 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

And yet; without my knowing of the master that was the law of Moses Covenant,  and that I am  freed from it by my Lord's mercy and sacrifice I would be hanging in thin air so to speak.

There would be no reason known  to me for the sacrifice willingly made by Yeshua,  the sacrifice that has paid the total price of my shame and sin against God. My reliance on the faith of Jesus ( Yeshua) would have little  or no basis in fact. It would be without any basis at all, just a kind of wishful thinking or mere fanaticizing.

With the entirety of the Word of God  and the reveal of Jesus   called the Bible, I  do have basis for my reliance on the faith of Jesus. Did I know of it all from the beginning of my own sojourn when the Holy Spirit turned me about ? No! But it was there for me to learn and to enable me to grow in and under that grace that mercy from everlasting to everlasting of God extended to me, me personally!

@Neighbor The great blessing is that all believers can "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 3.18)

[farouk]

18 hours ago, NConly said:

2 Corin 3:

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

 

 

@NConly I find the reference to ink there interesting...Like the passage refers to the need for the heart to have the Scriptures written on it by the Holy Spirit....merely having a Scripture injected into the skin with ink - when the heart is not first changed through the Spirit and the Scriptures - won't do the person any good. (I'm sure you would agree....)