Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[Anne2]

Just now, farouk said:

@Anne2 It's interesting to see that believers now who are in the church are inheritors of promises in Christ because of faith, although this does not make them Israelites. I would see the church and Israel as distinct (1 Cor. 10.32).

my post is not about that farouk.

It concerns Paul, as well as the law focusing on what was promised Abraham. The nation of Israel, every circumcised Jew have not had their Calling revoked.

A covenant each born Jew enters into by the faith of his father, keeping the covenant of circumcision, the fathers work of faith a work which keeps that covenant. That call was in Isaac. What I am focusing in on as God being the God of all men, and God being the judge of all the earth. I think we cloud things by focusing on Israel like we do. Israel was a man, that became twelve tribes, in the patriarchs. 

The Israel of God, which sit on twelve thrones. The church of the firstborn 

Gods promises to Isaac will be done because God will keep his promise to abraham. If not they won't have it either. It was the same promise. Co-heris

This is the ideas and parameters of this post. Right or wrong. Cant know until someone sees otherwise to show it.

[Your closest friendnt]

39 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Anne2 It's interesting to see that believers now who are in the church are inheritors of promises in Christ because of faith, although this does not make them Israelites. I would see the church and Israel as distinct (1 Cor. 10.32).

As distinct, as one or two? 

[Your closest friendnt]

@Anne2

We must understand that the disciples and everyone else including the Jews wanted the Christ of not to die.

Their test was that if Jesus dies then he is not the Christ. 

This was contrary to the beliefs of Abraham and David who were looking forwards to the death of Jesus Christ...

Those with Abraham and Abraham wanted Jesus Christ to die but those who lived did not want Jesus to die...

John the Baptist realized and believed that Jesus also had to die...because there was not anyother way for the Christ of God to descend to where they were and bring them the bread and the wine of the Christ of God...

Edited June 14, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said:

We must understand that the disciples and everyone else including the Jews wanted the Christ of not to die.

Their test was that if Jesus dies then he is not the Christ. 

I do not want to get into this too much, as I think it will go off track of the thread. Though I think it is an important discussion to have.

There was a teaching concerning two Messiah's as well among the Jews. Messiah ben Joseph would suffer and die

Messiah ben Joseph would be Triumphant.

But that was just speculation on the prophets.

Jesus however spoke often about Moses and what Moses said of him. their mistake was not judging and determing all of it by Moses.

1. John a prophet sent from God testified to them

2. Jesus his works (in him by the father) testified of him.

(a prophet like moses performing the mighty works of God)

3. And they seen the repentance of sinners, but would not repent themselves to believe him.

Had they listened to the lawful authority given them to determine him they would have believed him. But they did not. As Judges over the people were they given jurisdiction to teach doctrine from the prophets?

 I dont  think so.

There is alot more concerning these things but to long to go into, 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Anne2

[Your closest friendnt]

9 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I do not want to get into this too much, as I think it will go off track of the thread. Though I think it is an important discussion to have.

There was a teaching concerning two Messiah's as well among the Jews. Messiah ben Joseph would suffer and die

Messiah ben Joseph would be Triumphant.

But that was just speculation on the prophets.

Jesus however spoke often about Moses and what Moses said of him. their mistake was not judging and determing all of it by Moses.

1. John a prophet sent from God testified to them

2. Jesus his works testified of him.

3. And they seen the repentance of sinners, but would not repent themselves to believe him.

Had they listened to the lawful authority given them to determine him they would have believed him. But they did not. As Judges over the people were they given jurisdiction to teach doctrine from the prophets?

 I dont  think so.

There is alot more concerning these things but to long to go into, 

 

I did not understand your post...

What I said is that Abraham and Devid were in the right track they believe that the Christ of God will come to them and they were dead and they knew and believed that he also the Christ of God to come to them he would have to die first...and they were waiting for him...to come to right after he died...

They believe that the Christ had to die....

Those who were living they believe that the Christ will not die...

When Abraham and David and everyone with them they were celebrating the coming of Jesus Christ to them...

At that specific time the Jews and even the disciples were saying that Jesus died ...that he was not the Christ...because to them the Christ of God is not supposed to die...

Just reporting...just an observation. 

[Anne2]

1 minute ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I did not understand your post...

What I said is that Abraham and Devid were in the right track they believe that the Christ of God will come to them and they were dead and they knew and believed that he also the Christ of God to come to them he would have to die first...and they were waiting for him...to come to right after he died...

They believe that the Christ had to die....

Those who were living they believe that the Christ will not die...

When Abraham and David and everyone with them they were celebrating the coming of Jesus Christ to them...

At that specific time the Jews and even the disciples were saying that Jesus died ...that he was not the Christ...because to them the Christ of God is not supposed to die...

Just reporting...just an observation. 

Ok, I misuderstood your post. Sorry!

Blessings

[AdHoc]

@Vine Abider @Anne2 @Your closest friendnt @farouk and others,

I don't know how appropriate the "firstborn" is to the thread, but it has peaked the interest of all participators. My understanding is as follows.

After the events that caused the immersion of the world "that then was" in Genesis 1:2, God set out in six days to make a new beginning. The earth was restored to pristine, even utopian, condition and a new creature, man, was created. This man was supposed to bring God's government to replace the previous one. We know the gloomy history. The once pristine creature was subject to corruption - again.

God does not fix broken things. He is "Creator". He is unlimited. So God set about replacing the "old" Creation. Again He sets aside six days to recover things to pristine condition - six of His days at 1,000 years a piece. Our Lord Jesus, not born of Adam does not partake of the old creation via Adam. But because He is "Seed of the woman" He does. He has no sin, but His past is bound with that which God will replace. According to Romans 6, immersion serves two purposes. (i) It buries the old and (ii) it is the platform for the new. So our Lord Jesus, though He has no sins to remit, goes down into the "terminating" waters of Jordan "to fulfill all righteousness".

What would be "righteousness" if a sinless man allowed Himself to be buried in water? It would be an act of agreeing with and participating in God's plan to make all things new. God is about to make things new and our Lord Jesus would have preeminence in the New Creature. In Colossians 1 our Lord is declared preeminent in the old creation and preeminent in resurrection - the solution to death. But He is also preeminent in ALL things, so He is the firstborn of the New Creature.

This New Creature is not made in a day. It starts with our Lord symbolically coming out of the flood (the Jordan), being honored, anointed and declared by the Holy Spirit, to physically going through death and bringing forth the New Man which has no past, to renewing the minds of the chosen ones and then giving them a new body. But the work is by far not finished. There is new government on earth, a new dispensation and God's enemies are subdued and subjected to conform with God's righteousness. Then the New is tested by men and angels at the end of the seventh 1,000 by the largest army ever - Magog.

When their best effort to disrupt and corrupt the New Order, God gives all men new bodies (at the White Throne) and ushers in the New Heaven and the New Earth. And the crowning achievement is an all encompassing City which embodies all that is New - New Jerusalem.

Of this whole grand plan, Jesus is the Firstborn.

[Anne2]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I don't know how appropriate the "firstborn" is to the thread, but it has peaked the interest of all participators. My understanding is as follows.

After the events that caused the immersion of the world "that then was" in Genesis 1:2, God set out in six days to make a new beginning. The earth was restored to pristine, even utopian, condition and a new creature, man, was created. This man was supposed to bring God's government to replace the previous one. We know the gloomy history. The once pristine creature was subject to corruption - again.

I hope you all do not mind addressing a point here for the purpose of finding harmony of thoughts in agreement where possible. My intent, is not to challenge, and create a dichotomy of scriptural rights and wrongs at all. I think it is important. If you all do not, I will not bring up this again.

Your mention of "God's government".Could this be the same as rule, or reign?

If so, could it be helpful to speak of kings? Is Noah spoken of as a ruler as king? 

A king was a judge of his people, We see this with the kings of Israel as well. Solomons wisdom in judging the causes which came before him for his wisdom.

1Sa 8:5  And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

Noah, condemned the world.
Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

2632 κατακρίνω katakrino kat-ak-ree’-no

from 2596 and 2919; v; TDNT-3:951,469; {See TDNT 412}

AV-condemn 17, damn 2; 19

1) to give judgment against, to judge worthy of punishment
1a) to condemn
1b) by one’s good example to render another’s wickedness the more evident and censurable 

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (heirs of the same promise Gen 17, kings for seed)

These are Gods' anointed ones.....prophets

Reproved kings

1Ch 16:21  He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,
Ps 105:14  He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;

Did God's prophets also not speak from God? and not private?

Abraham, called God, the judge of all the earth, who does right in judgement.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Anne2

[debrakay]

God does fix broken things.  I was broken and then I was restored when I chose Jesus as my savior, redeemer, healer, my King and my Lord.  I am a new creation and have been fixed (renewed).

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

John 3:5 - 'Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

James 1:18 - He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Galatians 6:15 - Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

Colossians 1:15 - The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

 

 

 

[debrakay]

On 6/6/2023 at 3:17 PM, Vine Abider said:

So the Creator put sin in Adam from the beginning?

Good question.  I believe the Father put free will into his creation of mankind (also, made in His image).  I do not believe He created mankind with sin inside of him.  Sin came into the hearts of mankind later when mankind decided, by free will, to disobey the Father.  Mankind chose self instead of God. This is when sin appeared.