Adam & Eve - Christ & The Church

[Retrobyter]

On 6/7/2023 at 5:32 AM, AdHoc said:

@JimmyB @Vine Abider

I have followed the exchange with interest. I think the dilemma has merit. How did Eve succumb to temptation if she did not have the sin-nature? But equally, if we believe that God made Adam (and Eve who was IN Adam) with a sin nature, we attribute sin to God (perish the thought). The answer lies, I believe, in the offerings.

Shabbat shalom, AdHoc.

I think that the dilemma lies in thinking that anyone has a "sin-nature." That's not a biblical thing. That's a philosophical and theological thing, which are frequently filled with the errors of human thinking.

Our actual nature is one of self-preservation, self-betterment, self-improvement, and the key word, of course, is "self!"

On 6/7/2023 at 5:32 AM, AdHoc said:

You might have noticed that until the Law of Moses was given, the prevailing offering is the burnt offering - not the sin offering. There are five main offerings and their order is crucial. (i) Burnt Offering, (ii) Meal Offering, (iii) Peace offering, (iv) Sin Offering and (v) Trespass Offering. I've no doubt that if the order were left to us, we would reverse them. Our experience is that we sin (or trespass) because we have the "sin-nature" and this destroys our peace with God. the result of these three is because we have a fallen humanity and this fallen humanity is is not fully for God.

But for God the problem lies in reverse. And here we get an inkling of Eve's problem BEFORE the fall. She was not fully for God. No sin had yet been committed, but Eve looked at the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and desired it more than God. If you read through the whole Bible you will see that the three things that tempted Eve are LEGITIMATE things. To eat when hungry is legitimate. To desire a beautiful thing is legitimate (see Song of Songs). To be made wise is suggested by God Himself. The question though is, WHAT IS MY SOURCE?

Shall I be beholden to Jehovah, or shall I acquire these things from another source? This is what faced our Lord Jesus in the wilderness. But I Lord refused them at their SOURCE. All three items of the temptation would Jesus later acquire, but at the hand of His FATHER. Eve's decision was not based on a sin-nature any more than our Lord's temptation. Both possessed a sinless nature. But our Lord Jesus, hungry, unrecognized for Who he was, and faced with an horrendous road to gain the kingdoms of this world, said in His heart that he would wait for the Father to give them, whereas Eve did not care to put the Father's interests first.

Jesus was fully for the Father. He is the Burnt Offering. Eve was fully for Eve. And so the problem of the sin-nature is not not traced back to a sin-nature. It is traced back to man's legitimate desires GAINED FROM A SOURCE OTHER THAN GOD. Thus, we have, besides the temptation of Eve and Christ, the admonition that if we love the world (and all that is in it), the love of God cannot be in us. Notice the grammar in 1st John 2;

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

It does not say that God does not love him. It says that he does not love the Father. Satan's job was to convince Eve that God was withholding legitimate things. This he accomplished with Eve, but not with our Lord Jesus.

Right. The summary of the Law that Yeeshuwa` provided for us all was ...

Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him,

"Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 

39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 

40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

YHWH God was trying to get Adam and Chavah to this point; however, He knew that the road would be long and hard for them. He set them up a contest "of sorts": I believe that they knew where the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was, but they did NOT know where the Tree of Life was. They only knew OF the Tree of Life. First, we are told,

Genesis 2:8-9 (KJV)

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then, we read,

Genesis 2:15-17 (KJV)

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

All of this happened before Chavah was formed. After God formed Chavah from Adam's rib, Adam was responsible to tell God's commandment to Chavah, and she had heard it.

However, God's commandment was embellished by either Adam to her or by her own words, for to the serpent, she repeated,

Genesis 3:2-3 (KJV)

2 And the woman said unto the serpent,

"We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said,

"'Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'"

Of course, it's also possible that God repeated Himself with this addition to Chavah directly.

Regardless, the fact remains that God's commandment was only against eating from this ONE tree. The Tree of Life was just one of the MANY trees from which Adam and Chavah could freely eat.

Maybe, the serpent only presented the commandment as a challenge to Chavah and helped her to PERCEIVE it was a competition!

In either case, as a competition, Chavah had a choice: She could take the long way to the goal and obey God's commandment, OR she could take the shortcut to the goal, and eat from the tree that would make her wise like God! She chose to take the shortcut, and gave the fruit to Adam, as well. He likewise chose to disobey God, and I believe that He chose to eat so that their fates would be the same. He chose to be with His wife rather than obey God.

It's important, however, to understand that the NAME of the tree, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, does not mean that the tree had any special powers. It was a name of IRONY!

Before, they ate from the tree, they were good like God was good. There was no difference (except in quantity).

AFTER they ate from the tree, they were now evil, and they could now perceive how different they had become from the perfectly righteous YHWH God! They could now perceive that they were guilty, and they felt that guilt as if God was seeing it within them  with His penetrating gaze! They were naked and ashamed! And, they tried to hide that guilt with some sort of covering. All they knew were leaves, and they chose the biggest, thickest leaves they could find to cover their nakedness.

So, HAVING the Knowledge of Good and Evil was not what it was cracked up to be!

[NConly]

Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Seems to me Free will is nothing without a choice between good and evil. God is making sure we have a choice Our choice to be with Him or not be with Him. Its our choice not His that is free will.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, AdHoc.

I think that the dilemma lies in thinking that anyone has a "sin-nature." That's not a biblical thing. That's a philosophical and theological thing, which are frequently filled with the errors of human thinking.

Our actual nature is one of self-preservation, self-betterment, self-improvement, and the key word, of course, is "self!"

Right. The summary of the Law that Yeeshuwa` provided for us all was ...

Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him,

"Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 

39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 

40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

YHWH God was trying to get Adam and Chavah to this point; however, He knew that the road would be long and hard for them. He set them up a contest "of sorts": I believe that they knew where the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was, but they did NOT know where the Tree of Life was. They only knew OF the Tree of Life. First, we are told,

Genesis 2:8-9 (KJV)

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then, we read,

Genesis 2:15-17 (KJV)

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

All of this happened before Chavah was formed. After God formed Chavah from Adam's rib, Adam was responsible to tell God's commandment to Chavah, and she had heard it.

However, God's commandment was embellished by either Adam to her or by her own words, for to the serpent, she repeated,

Genesis 3:2-3 (KJV)

2 And the woman said unto the serpent,

"We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said,

"'Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'"

Of course, it's also possible that God repeated Himself with this addition to Chavah directly.

Regardless, the fact remains that God's commandment was only against eating from this ONE tree. The Tree of Life was just one of the MANY trees from which Adam and Chavah could freely eat.

Maybe, the serpent only presented the commandment as a challenge to Chavah and helped her to PERCEIVE it was a competition!

In either case, as a competition, Chavah had a choice: She could take the long way to the goal and obey God's commandment, OR she could take the shortcut to the goal, and eat from the tree that would make her wise like God! She chose to take the shortcut, and gave the fruit to Adam, as well. He likewise chose to disobey God, and I believe that He chose to eat so that their fates would be the same. He chose to be with His wife rather than obey God.

It's important, however, to understand that the NAME of the tree, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, does not mean that the tree had any special powers. It was a name of IRONY!

Before, they ate from the tree, they were good like God was good. There was no difference (except in quantity).

AFTER they ate from the tree, they were now evil, and they could now perceive how different they had become from the perfectly righteous YHWH God! They could now perceive that they were guilty, and they felt that guilt as if God was seeing it within them  with His penetrating gaze! They were naked and ashamed! And, they tried to hide that guilt with some sort of covering. All they knew were leaves, and they chose the biggest, thickest leaves they could find to cover their nakedness.

So, HAVING the Knowledge of Good and Evil was not what it was cracked up to be!

Interesting, very interesting indeed. 

[Vine Abider]

To everyone posting here I want to respectfully ask - is what you are posting specifically in line with the subject of this thread?

From my observation, I think I'm justified in showing this sign: 

If your answer is "no," you might (please) consider starting another thread.  Thanks!

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

I think that the dilemma lies in thinking that anyone has a "sin-nature." That's not a biblical thing. That's a philosophical and theological thing, which are frequently filled with the errors of human thinking.

Great subject and I agree - let's start a thread on this topic! (interesting in that I was just thinking of doing that, before reading your post!)

Okay, I just posted a new thread on General Topics called: "Do Christians Have Two Natures (a sin nature & a divine nature)?"  Lets talk about his over there.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Vine Abider
Mentioned new thread

[Anne2]

10 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

Hi and Blessings Anne .

   I don't believe the thread is about Watchmen Nees book but please do not go by my lil comments to Vine Abider regarding his reference to it...His Topic seemed appropriately Titled and it seems you are likely on Topic,I've not followed the Thread so I'm probably not the one to address this issue

Anne,I didn't even make it to page 3 here... I was interested in the OPs train of thoughts considering the Body of Christ and tye Bride if Christ,I never got past that but no doubt there was much more to talk about,I left....

Again,please don't go by my comment,I've not read what you wrote about the Church so I certainly have no say about what's on Topic here.

That's the thing when jumping in to respond to an OP after 32 pages of dialog has gone on....it ends up having nothing to do with the present  discussion,

With love in Christ,Kwik

 

Ok thanks kwik, it does appear scattered for lack of a better term. Just gonna keep my yap quiet for a bit to see how it flows LOL.

Blessings

[Your closest friendnt]

On 6/2/2023 at 3:22 PM, Vine Abider said:

Last night I was reading in Watchman Nee's book, "The Glorious Church" and read something I'd not really thought about.  This is regarding how Adam and Eve were a picture of Christ and the church.  A rib was taken out of the first Adam to make his counterpart, Eve.  And we are told in Ephesians by Paul that husbands and wives are a demonstration of Christ and the church. Eve came out of the first Adam and the church came out of the last Adam (Christ - 1 Cor 15:45).

But the point that got me in Nee's writings was this: The picture of God "building a woman" (lit Hebrew of Genesis 2:22) from Adam's rib happens in chapter two, which is before the fall.  Therefore, sin was not involved with Eve being produced.  He goes on to say that the church is produced apart from sin.  That is, Christ's atonement and redemption is so thorough and complete that now the church is produced totally outside the realm of sin.  WOW - interesting thought!

So I'm chewing on what that means and am curious as to others' thoughts . . .

Jesus said: "I will build My church."

"That He might present her to Himself as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Matthew 16:18 & Ephesians 5:27

Greetings @Vine Abider, 

The people of God in the Old Testament begging with Moses had the Lord God as their Lord and they had enter into a Covenant with him ...he was everything they needed. 

Everything they needed they had to go to him.

The Lord God was everything they needed through the Covenant of Sinai. 

They were the eligible children of Abraham and the people of God through their obedience to the Sinai Covenant...which Moses gave to them or God gave to Moses to give it to them. 

And then it was given to their children and their children's children "the bread of Life in the Sinai Covenant with their Lord their God their blesser and their Judge...if they did not keep their Covenant they were cut off from him.

Their life with him was mantain through their obedience to the Covenant. 

In the New Covenant of Jesus Christ all the people of the earth are eligible to be included in the people of God through the obedience to the truth that Jesus is the Christ of God who died for the forgiveness of our sins.

And if they continued believing that about Jesus Christ...they will never be cut off from him and their Inheritance with him. 

Many of them they are his people because of their obedience to believe in him but not all of them are in dedicated obedience to him in this life...without prejudice not all who are his by faith in him and who are eligible to be part of his body and Jesus being the head of this body are part of the body of Jesus Christ unless they do his will.

They have to do the things that Jesus wills them (us) to do...they are the body of Jesus Christ who is their head and he is not on earth as he was before the Cross and when the Heavenly Father was his head...when he was doing what the Father was asking him.

The Father was not here and he was asking Jesus to do the things that he would do if he was on earth and was in a body...so Jesus was the body of the Heavenly Father (figuratively speaking) to bring to pass the things the Heavenly Father was doing. 

And when that happened not all the time...as Jesus also had his own life..with his disciples and himself..

Jesus was also his own individual but he was ready in season and out of season ready to "be the body of his Father " to represent God on the things that God wanted to do here on earth and do them for him.

A similar situation is with us the believers in Jesus Christ we have to do the will of Jesus Christ here on earth on what we understand on our on and in what we understand what he wills for us to do...perhaps a parent believes that the will of Jesus Christ for them it is to teach their children the faith of Jesus Christ as they are able to or not to prevent them to get closer to Jesus Christ...with the Godly discipline..

They are in the body of Jesus Christ they do not have to be in the body of the inner sircle of the servants of the Gospel...to be in the body of Jesus Christ...but some are in Christ and have big problems in their lives that makes one wondering but what they do is not always the truth indication withered they believe or not...it is when in their quiet time they pass by a church or they read something about Jesus Christ and they say to them selfs that they also believe by looking only in their faith in him at that time...their works another time as believers and not as unbelievers.

For us is not the pastor or a friend who is our head even though they are times that they are when we give our dependency to them or when they want to Lord it over us...Paul reminds us to look to Jesus Christ from whom all blessings flow and not to idolize other people and give a blind obedience to them...

Jesus Christ even when we read the old scriptures who did not have Jesus Christ to remember that we need to call upon Jesus Christ our head and not upon the head of the pre-Christ people of God, not in the same way they did...but God has given us Jesus Christ to be our Lord and our head...in him we have the fullness of all things...

Of course we help one another and as we help unbeliever so it is that unbelievers are helping us.

For us who are in the Blood of Jesus Christ should only look to him to help us ...call only upon his name...but if we do not do he want get angry but he will be wondering why we thank someone else for what he is doing to us...

 

[Vine Abider]

43 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Greetings @Vine Abider, 

The people of God in the Old Testament begging with Moses had the Lord God as their Lord and they had enter into a Covenant with him ...he was everything they needed. 

Everything they needed they had to go to him.

The Lord God was everything they needed through the Covenant of Sinai. 

They were the eligible children of Abraham and the people of God through their obedience to the Sinai Covenant...which Moses gave to them or God gave to Moses to give it to them. 

And then it was given to their children and their children's children "the bread of Life in the Sinai Covenant with their Lord their God their blesser and their Judge...if they did not keep their Covenant they were cut off from him.

Their life with him was mantain through their obedience to the Covenant. 

In the New Covenant of Jesus Christ all the people of the earth are eligible to be included in the people of God through the obedience to the truth that Jesus is the Christ of God who died for the forgiveness of our sins.

And if they continued believing that about Jesus Christ...they will never be cut off from him and their Inheritance with him. 

Many of them they are his people because of their obedience to believe in him but not all of them are in dedicated obedience to him in this life...without prejudice not all who are his by faith in him and who are eligible to be part of his body and Jesus being the head of this body are part of the body of Jesus Christ unless they do his will.

They have to do the things that Jesus wills them (us) to do...they are the body of Jesus Christ who is their head and he is not on earth as he was before the Cross and when the Heavenly Father was his head...when he was doing what the Father was asking him.

The Father was not here and he was asking Jesus to do the things that he would do if he was on earth and was in a body...so Jesus was the body of the Heavenly Father (figuratively speaking) to bring to pass the things the Heavenly Father was doing. 

And when that happened not all the time...as Jesus also had his own life..with his disciples and himself..

Jesus was also his own individual but he was ready in season and out of season ready to "be the body of his Father " to represent God on the things that God wanted to do here on earth and do them for him.

A similar situation is with us the believers in Jesus Christ we have to do the will of Jesus Christ here on earth on what we understand on our on and in what we understand what he wills for us to do...perhaps a parent believes that the will of Jesus Christ for them it is to teach their children the faith of Jesus Christ as they are able to or not to prevent them to get closer to Jesus Christ...with the Godly discipline..

They are in the body of Jesus Christ they do not have to be in the body of the inner sircle of the servants of the Gospel...to be in the body of Jesus Christ...but some are in Christ and have big problems in their lives that makes one wondering but what they do is not always the truth indication withered they believe or not...it is when in their quiet time they pass by a church or they read something about Jesus Christ and they say to them selfs that they also believe by looking only in their faith in him at that time...their works another time as believers and not as unbelievers.

For us is not the pastor or a friend who is our head even though they are times that they are when we give our dependency to them or when they want to Lord it over us...Paul reminds us to look to Jesus Christ from whom all blessings flow and not to idolize other people and give a blind obedience to them...

Jesus Christ even when we read the old scriptures who did not have Jesus Christ to remember that we need to call upon Jesus Christ our head and not upon the head of the pre-Christ people of God, not in the same way they did...but God has given us Jesus Christ to be our Lord and our head...in him we have the fullness of all things...

Of course we help one another and as we help unbeliever so it is that unbelievers are helping us.

For us who are in the Blood of Jesus Christ should only look to him to help us ...call only upon his name...but if we do not do he want get angry but he will be wondering why we thank someone else for what he is doing to us...

 

Thanks.  Forgive me bro, but I got lost in reading your post . . . can you summarize please?

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks.  Forgive me bro, but I got lost in reading your post . . . can you summarize please?

In a few words: we are the body of Jesus Christ, we have to do the works of Jesus here on earth the physical works and the speaking on his behalf...like if he wants to give a glass of water to someone and he won't send an Agel to do it unless he does so...he has commission us to do it to be his servants...

We should be involved in his ministry...and in giving the bread of Life to others...the word of encouragement to others..the building up in the faith...

And we know that the Holy Spirit is here with us to help us and grow in the faith and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. 

And he is the head the provider we are his servants and we should call upon to Jesus for everything we need.

God has appointed Jesus Christ to help us for all our needs...all our needs are with him.

He is by God to be our Lord and our judge..not to confuse Jesus Christ with the old Testament Covenant people and call upon their God...God gave us Jesus to call upon to. 

When we read the old Testament that's what they had..the Lord God that was for them.

God has given Jesus Christ to us and without him we are nothing...

As those who call upon the name of God without faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Retrobyter]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:46 AM, Your closest friendnt said:

Shalom, @Retrobyter

God said to them that this tree is the tree of Knowledge of what is good and what is not good...and the only way to have that knowledge is if you eat from the fruit of that tree...you cannot have that knowledge from me, I cannot give it to you...

But if you decided to do that and have that knowledge it will come with the "surely die" 

This is what Adam and Eve gave to their children the "surely die " together with "the knowledge of good and not good". 

They did not sin and they did not born their children with sin...Abel was in the "surely die" state inherited from Adam and he never sin and died without any sin.. 

He was only in the "surely die" mode because Adam was in that mode. 

 

Shalom, Your closest friendnt.

I've got to go back and correct something:

First, the tree is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not just what you said.

Second, as far as saying "They did not sin, and they did not born [bare] their children with sin," is concerned, that's not what Paul said:

Romans 3:9-26 (KJV)

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written,

"There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes."

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without (outside of) the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 5:12-21 (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, AND DEATH BY SIN; AND SO DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since BY MAN CAME DEATH, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For AS IN ADAM ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Therefore, it is not true that "Abel never sinned!" He was indeed a son of Adam (which was the name of the first couple), and as such inherited their tendancy to sin and the resultant death that accompanies that sin. We were just not told about his sin. But, if one thinks about it, what could his sin have been? How about a little self-satisfaction and smugness? For some reason, they talked in the field when Qayin ("Cain") rose up and slew his brother Hevel ("Abel"). Did he unwittingly "egg him on?" We don't know, but it's possible, and "Hevel" means a "vapor," a "breath," or "vanity" (as it is translated in Ecclesiastes 1:2).