Standing one's ground?

[AnOrangeCat]

12 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Of course, if they're just after my wallet, then they can have that. No sense killing someone over money. But I'm not going to let them harm me or my family.

So do stand your ground laws have their downsides? Yes. They're not perfect. But I'd rather have them then not.

I agree here. Unfortunate stuff happens like someone being high as a kite and then an unnecessary death happens. It gets plastered all over the news. But we hear about it a lot less on instances where people are actually saved because of this law and the the person who had to shoot someone else is protected because they acted in defense of themselves or others.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, FJK said:

I can't find any official sources for that fact, only opinions, and generally opinions being expressed for political or other agenda driven reasons.  (Remember that you stated "most" and not "some".)

Hi, You might look up George Zimmerman whose victim was Trayvon Martin, Curtis Reeves who shot Chad Oulson, Jimmy Paiz who shot  a 15 year old through his front door,   Andrew Lester who shot Ralph Yarl,  Susan Louise Lorincz who shot Ajike Owens as examples of real life happenings.

Each is somewhat different however, so many have a racial fear/biase/hatred component that underlies the use of stand your ground thinking on the part of the shooter. I do wonder has this law unleashed violence born of a racial angst nature?

I don't have a conclusion that satisfies me, but I do  question the effect of this stand your ground principle has on those that are scared deranged or simply mean spirited looking for opportunity to express in lethal violence their meanness. so far I do not see a lot of instances in fact none that do not have a racial fear/hatred component.

One question  I have now is: Is there a direct relationship between the law and race bias or is it coincidental?

[FJK]

5 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, You might look up George Zimmerman whose victim was Trayvon Martin, Curtis Reeves who shot Chad Oulson, Jimmy Paiz who shot  a 15 year old through his front door,   Andrew Lester who shot Ralph Yarl,  Susan Louise Lorincz who shot Ajike Owens as examples of real life happenings.

Each is somewhat different however, so many have a racial fear/biase/hatred component that underlies the use of stand your ground thinking on the part of the shooter. I do wonder has this law unleashed violence born of a racial angst nature?

I don't have a conclusion that satisfies me, but I do  question the effect of this stand your ground principle has on those that are scared deranged or simply mean spirited looking for opportunity to express in lethal violence their meanness. so far I do not see a lot of instances in fact none that do not have a racial fear/hatred component.

One question  I have now is: Is there a direct relationship between the law and race bias or is it coincidental?

I don't see any profit for either of us in continuing this conversation, so lets just let it drop.

[Neighbor]

25 minutes ago, AnOrangeCat said:

I agree here. Unfortunate stuff happens like someone being high as a kite and then an unnecessary death happens. It gets plastered all over the news. But we hear about it a lot less on instances where people are actually saved because of this law and the the person who had to shoot someone else is protected because they acted in defense of themselves or others.

Well here is one still in the NY Post.  https://nypost.com/2022/05/25/florida-grandmother-virginia-morrison-shoots-and-kills-home-intruder/

BUT note even this person went outside to re-engage the person she then killed. I suspect that if she were put on trial an di was on the jury I could not vote to convict her. Yet she did  also become an aggressor it seems. The more I see the more i think stand your ground is flawed as presently in effect.

Do I have the answer? No!

[ladypeartree]

Here where firearms are not common we have the case of a farmer Tony Martin who shot two burglars that had broken into his house ( they had done so several times before ) He used his shotgun .. a legal gun normally used to protect livestock . One young man died and Tony Martin was convicted of murder even though they had both broken into his house armed with knives and batons with the intent to steal and were still in his house when he shot In the USA he wouldnt even have been tried  but in the UK he was jailed for life for defending himself ... not sure which law I would prefer  

[Neighbor]

28 minutes ago, ladypeartree said:

Here where firearms are not common we have the case of a farmer Tony Martin who shot two burglars that had broken into his house ( they had done so several times before ) He used his shotgun .. a legal gun normally used to protect livestock . One young man died and Tony Martin was convicted of murder even though they had both broken into his house armed with knives and batons with the intent to steal and were still in his house when he shot In the USA he wouldnt even have been tried  but in the UK he was jailed for life for defending himself ... not sure which law I would prefer  

Hi, That situation makes for a very good point. It is I believe the reason for the newer stand your ground laws of the state of Florida USA that are still evolving, now a constitutional carry State not even requiring Conceal Carry permit. Yet the State just sent me a renewal notice for my own permit- go figure, I can't.

BTW each State has differing laws. There is no universal USA gun law regarding these type of situations.  I can cross State after State line with  weapons risking misadventure for myself, if I do not follow exactly the law of each State I go through. Some reciprocate, some do not with Florida law, well older Florida state USA law; who knows about the new ones, I don't.

I can't even figure out why  reapply  for a Conceal Carry permit if having one isn't even part of the State's requirement, as of this year? With all that confusion I see more and more agitation occurring and more people deciding to go Rambo, becoming an army of one, so to speak regardless of the multitude of law(s).

What I do see is  a number of mean people, sitting locked in behind their front doors, that are willing to shot whatever disturbs them, now that they feel freer to use stand your ground as excuse.  I suppose it is going to become more prevalent as long as many of us think killing might be a good answer to a non lethal problem like noisy kids of the neighborhood, or someone simply knocking on the front door  of the home. 

I remember when  the reaction to a knock was "Who is it?" Apartment buildings had speaker tubes even; but then I am a geezer too.

Today  there are cameras and speaker systems galore yet  we are encouraged to also have guns and go out and challenge the bad guys having their own guns, and heaven help them if they look different  than me. 

[The_Patriot21]

52 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, You might look up George Zimmerman whose victim was Trayvon Martin, Curtis Reeves who shot Chad Oulson, Jimmy Paiz who shot  a 15 year old through his front door,   Andrew Lester who shot Ralph Yarl,  Susan Louise Lorincz who shot Ajike Owens as examples of real life happenings.

Each is somewhat different however, so many have a racial fear/biase/hatred component that underlies the use of stand your ground thinking on the part of the shooter. I do wonder has this law unleashed violence born of a racial angst nature?

I don't have a conclusion that satisfies me, but I do  question the effect of this stand your ground principle has on those that are scared deranged or simply mean spirited looking for opportunity to express in lethal violence their meanness. so far I do not see a lot of instances in fact none that do not have a racial fear/hatred component.

One question  I have now is: Is there a direct relationship between the law and race bias or is it coincidental?

Zimmerman was well within his rights to shoot. He didn't pre plan or seek that out, martin, a criminal with a history of violence assaulted him. All Zimmerman was doing was driving the neighborhood looking for crime, and unfortunately crime found him.

 

[Neighbor]

22 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Zimmerman was well within his rights to shoot. He didn't pre plan or seek that out, martin, a criminal with a history of violence assaulted him. Afront door  of the home. and unfortunately crime found him.

 

Zimmerman thought so too. But he was seeking out opportunity to confront, he envisioned himself a  bit of a Rambo  and yes he found his opportunity. His life has been a mess every sense ( See https://www.wesh.com/article/where-is-george-zimmerman-now/39204924 ) and so has the lives of many around him. That case predates the present Florida State laws bu tis a motivator toward those very laws that take effect July 1  this year. do they help or hurt, I don't know. They certainly confuse.

Whether Florida or Georgia or elsewhere  there seems to me to be a misuse occurring where more reasonable solution to one's anxiety is available Too many are now needlessly being shot at and killed.  The shooter even if not prosecuted for murder does not really win anything.  They still have to face the reality of today's noisy disruptive world. Kids are still going to play in neighborhoods and they will not all be looking like each other either.

There is also civil liability where standards may differ from criminal punishment. It is a nightmare unleashed in part by  Stand your Ground encouragement - that is what I see at this point. Too  many severely stressed individuals are able to  get and use guns.

I do not  like to acknowledge it, but it is staring me in the face that  there is a racial fear/ hatred component to these shootings too. Can't get more obvious than this latest one.

[The_Patriot21]

8 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Zimmerman thought so too. But he was seeking out opportunity to confront, he envisioned himself a  bit of a Rambo  and yes he found his opportunity. His life has been a mess every sense ( See https://www.wesh.com/article/where-is-george-zimmerman-now/39204924 ) and so has the lives of many around him. That case predates the present Florida State laws bu tis a motivator toward those very laws that take effect July 1  this year. do they help or hurt, I don't know. They certainly confuse.

Whether Florida or Georgia or elsewhere  there seems to me to be a misuse occurring where more reasonable solution to one's anxiety is available Too many are now needlessly being shot at and killed.  The shooter even if not prosecuted for murder does not really win anything.  They still have to face the reality of today's noisy disruptive world. Kids are still going to play in neighborhoods and they will not all be looking like each other either.

There is also civil liability where standards may differ from criminal punishment. It is a nightmare unleashed in part by  Stand your Ground encouragement - that is what I see at this point. Too  many severely stressed individuals are able to  get and use guns.

I do not  like to acknowledge it, but it is staring me in the face that  there is a racial fear/ hatred component to these shootings too. Can't get more obvious than this latest one.

Really, can you read his mind? Or know his heart? 

The answer is no, so there is absolutely no way you can know what he invisioned himself as. 

The facts are he was patrolling the neighborhood as a neighborhood watch, something that is common nation wide. He saw someone out of place so he stopped and questioned him, again something that is common and not against the law.

Even if he did invision himself as a rambo, and was a little more confrontational then he should have been, he did nothing to provoke the reaction he got. The average law abiding citizen isn't going to react by trying to beat the tar out of the person stopping them.

Zimmerman did nothing wrong or illegal. I myself have stopped people whom I didn't recognize in my neighborhood, usually in a friendly manner, just to see who they are.

Zimmerman was a prime example of stand your ground laws working the way they are supposed to, and the liberal main stream media taking it and twisting it into something it wasnt just to make law abiding gun owners look bad.

 

[Neighbor]

15 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Really, can you read his mind? Or know his heart? 

The answer is no, so there is absolutely no way you can know what he invisioned himself as. 

 

Actually I closely followed the arrest and trial.So the answer is I have no need to read minds.  I need not read his mind, but only hear his words. 

The point of this thread's opening post however is not any one case nor incident. Those criminal cases were mentioned in response to another's question.

The whole concept of stand your ground is in my opinion now being seriously abused by those that are prone to wanting to create havoc rather than prevent it. Mean people are using it to kill and then claim they had to right to do so, when they could have easily deescalated the situations instead, or avoided them entirely in the first place.

But you and I will never see it alike and that is okay, least it is with me.