It is said that the heaven is not above and hell is not beneath the earth. Where are they located?

[Who me]

On 8/18/2023 at 1:15 PM, FJK said:

Until it does.

Non-recognition does not mean non-existence.

What is found is what is looked for.

Yes and atheistic evolutionary  science does not recognise the existence of the supernatural.

Because as far as they are concerned all there is is the material world, there explanations will on.y include natural material explanations.

[Know Jah]

the third heaven is figurative

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:09 AM, JohnD said:

It is said that the heaven is not above and hell is not beneath the earth.

Whoever said that was in error!

[choir loft]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:09 AM, JohnD said:

Cosmology is only recently catching up to the prophetic indications in scripture. That there is another universe which the Bible calls the third heaven (the first two being the sky above Earth and the universe around). Scientists theorize the existence of black holes which until recently they believed were essentially the vacuum cleaners of the universe… but now theorize are the portholes between two universes. Through which black holes on either side exchange matter and energy.

Hell appears to be in the core of the Earth:

Malachi 4:3 (KJV)

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

A little fuzzy on the GPS location thing I think.

First, there is no hell.  

The afterlife concept is a pagan myth adopted by the church so as to gain and keep members via fear mongering.  Your quote of Malachi refers to defeat of the enemy, not the location of his grave.  The enemies of God simply die.  They aren't victims of eternal torment because they are deleted - become extinct. (Ecclesiastes. 3:19 & Romans 6:23) The incineration of the 5 cities of the kingdom of Sodom is an example.

Second, you are correct in stating there are three heavens, but they aren't located above one another...one is INSIDE the other.

C.S. Lewis described this unusual configuration when he wrote that the spiritual inside of things is bigger than the outside. 

Consider the books of Exodus and Numbers.  They describe the Wilderness Tabernacle which provides a sort of template for ALL THREE heavens.  The entire layout is described in intimate detail.   When Solomon erected his temple it followed the same basic design as did Herod's temple.

Ezekiel's temple was never built and as a result there's considerable controversy as to whether it has physical meaning or whether its' interpretation is symbolic in some way.   Opinions vary.

Revelation's New Jerusalem is different than all the rest because it has no temple at all. (Rev. 21:22)

None of the three heavens is a separate universe - strictly speaking.  The idea of multiple universes is an expression of Einsteinian mathematical theory regarding PHYSICAL universes, not spiritual ones.   It's an occult assertion as well as science fiction story line that there are separate universes or  dimensions.   This is not the assertion made by Holy Writ.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 15, 2023 by choir loft

[WilliamL]

On 6/24/2023 at 3:09 AM, JohnD said:

there is another universe which the Bible calls the third heaven (the first two being the sky above Earth and the universe around).

I don't know of any Christian or Jewish mystic that would agree with the above statement.

" There is a lot of misunderstanding about the three heavens/worlds above this material world. They are not places, as we generally understand that word: they are spiritual states of consciousness. ...

" In the heavens, there is no distance in terms of space, because there is neither space nor time. Distance in the heavens is determined by similarity and oppositeness. For instance, the holier the spirit, the closer its proximity to the Divine; while spirits that rebel against God are by their very nature at vast “distances” (in appearance) from Him. Spirits that have an especial love for children are drawn closer to other spirits like themselves, and appear more alike in form, than are spirits that are especially gifted in doctrine.  ...

" In sum, the heavens represent degrees of holiness: soul, spirit, and very breath. The flesh must be purified by the soul [taught via the Sinai Covenant], the soul must be purified by the Spirit [brought via the Last Supper Covenant], and the spirit must be purified by the emanated breath-light of the Holy One, when the Lord appears in the light of his glory. " ...

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1027-the-three-heavens/

On 9/14/2023 at 8:44 PM, choir loft said:

First, there is no hell.  

If your are speaking of Hades, then you are denying the testimony of the Holy Spirit-inspired Scriptures.

Same if you are speaking of Gehenna.

 

[HAZARD]

Hell is mentioned in many dozens of Scriptures throughout the Bible.

There are five departments in the underworld of departed Spirits, not one of these places is associated with or is the grave where bodies are buried.

These five departments are;

One). Paradise, which we are speaking of here;

In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31). This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11). Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).

It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11. Jesus not only went into this prison but He also went into another prison, "Tartarus," and preached to the fallen angels being held there in their own special prison. Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11). Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18). Rightious souls who die now no longer go here. They go straight to Heaven when they die.

Two). Tartarus; This prison is the special prison for the fallen angels that sinned both before and after the flood. There is nothing recorded in Scripture that teaches demons or human beings ever go into this prison. In these passages it is clear that there is a real Hell that is not the grave and that Spirit beings are confined in chains until judgment (1 Pet. 3:19; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7).

Three). Hell itself; (Matt. 16:18; Luke 16:19-31). This is the torment part in the unseen world and was, still is, and will yet be the abode of all the wicked souls and spirits of men from Able to the end of the Millennium. Then, at this time all the wicked will be liberated out of this prison and will be given their own immortal bodies and be judged before being cast into the "lake of fire" forever (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).

Four). The Bottomless Pit or Abyss is the abode or prison of demons and certain angelic beings. No human being is ever thrown into the abyss. It is a very deep chasm in the lower parts of the Earth. It is translated "deep" (Luke 8:26-31; Romans 10:7) and "Bottomless Pit" in Rev. 9:1-3, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-10). All these Scriptures prove that there are prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for departed sinning spirits, and they are not and could never be the same as a grave on the surface of the Earth.

And Five). The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). There is no record in Scripture of anyone being the lake of fire at present. Scripture does show that the beast and the false prophet will be the first to be cast into it. This will happen before the Millennium (Rev. 19:20). They will still be there 1,000 years later when the devil and all other rebels will be cast into it (Rev. 20:10-15).

Scripture also teaches that there will be degrees of punishment in Hell as far as remorse and torment of the conscience is concerned (Matt. 10:15; 11:22; 12:41; 23:14; Mark 6:11; 12:40; Luke 10:14; 11:31, 32; 20:47).

 

In the near future, men on Earth will be able to look into a real burning Hell under the Earth. This is plainly stated in Isa. 66:22-24 where the prophet predicts that all natural men in the new Earth will be able to look into Hell upon the men that have sinned against God. Rev. 14:9-11 also proves that men will be tormented in the presence of God and the angels forever. These passages are literal and be understood just as they read.

 

Isa. 66:22-24.  

 

22, For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 

    23, And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 

 

    24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. 

Scripture teaches that the people who knew each other on Earth and end up in Hell will know each other there. 

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but THEN shall I know even as I am known" (1 Cor. 13:12). 

We are told in 1 Cor. 15:25-58. and Phil. 3:20 - 21, that every person will be resurrected with the same kind of body that was sown in the ground and every person will have "his own body"; so naturally if we know each other here we shall know each other in Heaven or Hell. In Luke 16;19:31, the rich man while in Hell knew Lazarus; so will anyone else know whomever he sees whom he knew on Earth.

[HAZARD]

Scripture indicates that Gods heaven exists far beyond what we can see in the visible universe. In 2 Cor. 12:2-3,  the apostle Paul refers to “the third heaven" far beyond the first heaven (the immediate Earth's atmosphere) and the second heaven (the realm of the stars). He also speaks of the Lord having “ascended higher than all the heavens,"

Eph. 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

From a study of the Scriptures with an open and honest heart, we see that heaven is located in the Northern part in our universe.

When they would offer the sacrifices in the Old Testament they would offer them northward toward the Lord. Notice what Moses said in Leviticus 1:11, "And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar." The implication is clear that the Lord is in the north. "Northward before the Lord," says God's Word.

North is always the same direction from this planet no matter what time of day. If you were to point to the north in the morning, twelve hours later you would still be pointing in the same direction. No matter where the earth is in its orbit about the sun, north is always the same direction in relationship to the earth. So no matter what time of day or what time of year, north is always the same direction.

The Bible also implies that salvation comes from the north. In Psalms75:6 we read, "For promotion (salvation) cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south."

Therefore, we conclude that salvation comes from the north since it is the only choice left. God and heaven must be located in the north of our universe. Does that sound reasonable? Well we can either believe what is written in the Word of God or not believe what is written in the Word of God, or we can make up our own pet theory as to where God's Heaven is, Its our choice.

[FJK]

We speak of many things as above and below, higher and lower, not intending those words to apply to physical elevation.

An example would be that an appeal to a higher court does not mean to a court at a higher elevation above sea level, situated on a mountain or such.

[choir loft]

On 10/2/2023 at 6:09 PM, FJK said:

We speak of many things as above and below, higher and lower, not intending those words to apply to physical elevation.

An example would be that an appeal to a higher court does not mean to a court at a higher elevation above sea level, situated on a mountain or such.

"We" also speak of things that are not strictly Biblical - accepting pagan myths as spiritual truth.  

Lies lies lies are everywhere and church types swallow them whole.  Madness is the result.  The whole world sees it and laughs.....lies and madness and hypocrisy.  Church attendance shrinks every week and nobody knows why....because nobody will admit to knowing reasons obvious to everyone else.  What happened to the historic gospel?  The post-modern church knows it not.

The aforementioned reference to the divinely appointed court system has no parallel to the reality of the three heavens mentioned in scripture. See my explanation below......

The aforementioned reference to Tartarus is a myth.   Look it up.  

Tartarus is a reference to the prison pen of the Titans.  These pagan Greek demi-gods were supposedly imprisoned in the afterlife or underworld (take your pick).  2 Peter 2:4, the ONLY REFERENCE to Tartarus, can be rendered as hell too.   NEITHER IS <Biblically> REAL.  

One of the best rules for interpreting scripture is to verify its use in the context of the entire Bible.  This process is called exegesis.   (Look it up.)

On the other hand, what is most often seen is a false dogma using scripture for validation.  This process is called eisegesis.  (Look it up.)  Eisegetical logic has been used by every false teacher and despot in history.  It appears to be alive and well here as well.

Want proof?  God back and read THE ENTIRE passage from 2 Peter 2 1-5.  It's directed at FALSE TEACHERS.

Hell as it is commonly known is based on the Norse demi-god "Hel".   This female entity was charged with guarding the gateway to the underworld - the place of the dead (as if the dead could escape the grave anyway).  It's a reference TO A PERSON NOT A PLACE.

Translators of Biblical text used the reference to "Hel" to attempt to describe DEATH to those who knew the difference between Sheol and life.  Todays post-modern Christians are so confused they don't even know the difference between a man and a woman.  Don't bother trying to explore the depths of Holy Writ.  You'll never figure it out with an attitude like that.  

Returning briefly to the divinely appointed Biblical court system we note that Moses was initially directed to appoint JUDGES over God's people Israel.  (see the book of Exodus) Later in the actual book of Judges we read how a Theocratic judicial system worked in ancient Israel.  By the time of Jesus these courts were called Sanhedrin and every village and city had one.  The Great Sanhedrin was assembled in Jerusalem where it acted in a similar manner to the present US Supreme Court.

The word 'Sanhedrin' also means 'gathering'.  According to Mosaic LAW the 'gathering' was limited to members of the tribe of Levy or to Levite priests.  By the time of Jesus, active members of local Sanhedrins as well as the Great Sanhedrin were NOT all Levites or Levite priests.   In other words, the Great Sanhedrin where Christ was judged was AN ILLEGAL ASSEMBLY. According to Mosaic LAW - NONE of its judgments against Christ were valid by reason of an illegal 'gathering'.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited October 10, 2023 by choir loft

[RdJ]

 

Matthew 12:40

 

⁴⁰ For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.