The Hard Sayings of Jesus

[angels4u]

13 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

This is why...I am not going to elaborate on anything right now but if you ask me I will be more than glad to do so. 

These events took place some time after the Events that happened in Jerusalem about the death of Jesus and the preaching of the Gospel that followed. First Peter established that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and that they are the first instance witnesses chosen to be so by God...Peter then established that Jesus was in his body the same body when he died...even though his body had changed Jesus was in the same body when he died on the Cross...(Jesus had the marks of his deadly wounds to prove it and the mark of the spear of the Roman soldier who peirce the side of Jesus seeking proof whether or not Jesus was dead at that time...and testify by signing the Roman diaries that Jesus was dead..

Peter specified that Jesus after his raising from the dead ate and drunk with them prooving that he was not in the Spirit Form or a ghost.) 

This is from Acts 10:41-44 NIV. 

41. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 

(When Peter said that to the Romans they must have been shook up....to them it meant that Jesus had defeated the powers of the underworld and they gave up the people to be Judge by Jesus Christ as everyone from that time on would be Judge by Jesus Christ...Pete had understand by that time that the dead had heard the Gospel from Jesus Christ those three days and they will be judged also accordingly to having believe in Jesus Christ or not...

The Romans understood that their forefathers would have to go through that and for that reason they could not know where they were if they had believed in Jesus Christ or not...they understood that they were given the chance to believe in Jesus Christ and have their sins forgiven in his blood...in his name. 

42. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 

(This is what they were waiting to hear...that they were included in the "everyone" that they can have the forgiveness of their sins in the same way as the Jews by faith in his name) 

(By faith through his name as they were Pomans and to remain Romans...no need to be procylites like in the Covenant of Sinai.) (No need to be Circumcised and visit the Temple..)

43. The prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

while this was something new to Peter and the other believers who were with him Jesus did something to astonished them He pour the Holy Spirit upon them in the same power as in the day of Pentecost....Peter and the others must have freaked out that the Holy Spirit had fallen on uncircumcised and unbaptized (water baptized) and unconfesed and without asking forgiveness and without beating their chest asking for mercy.)

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 

I don't see what that has to do with James?

 

[Your closest friendnt]

To say that you must know what James said...regarding the same issues the visit of Peter brought up...

Can you tell where James deferred from Peter preaching to the family of the Romans?  

And where James deferred from the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles from the apostle Paul. 

And where Peter and Paul agree and James disagree..

At that time anyway...I can not say anything for the later time of his life...it does not mean that the Lord did not loved him...

You are not making questions for discovery...I am not judging....but you should bring your matters of objection up for discussion...that's what the people want...they want to understand and they are tired of taking sides...it's the new thing they want to experience Jesus and the Holy Spirit in their quidance in their understanding...wondering when it will finally happen to be taught something by God...

The way Peter was taught by God with his visit to Cornelius the Roman Centurion.

And the way Philip was taught by God on his going to the dessert to meet the Ethiopian Prince. 

We can learn from them and their experiences with the Holy Spirit...their guidance from the Holy Spirit. 

God bless 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Vine Abider]

19 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

To say that you must know what James said...regarding the same issues the visit of Peter brought up...

Can you tell where James deferred from Peter preaching to the family of the Romans?  

And where James deferred from the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles from the apostle Paul. 

And where Peter and Paul agree and James disagree..

It might be interesting to look at those perceived differences between James' writings and other NT authors. I as well used to not "cotton" to the book of James so much, as is the case with many others.  But the last time the ekklesia here went through his epistle, I got some fresh realization why those differences are not as big as I previously thought.

In any case, may I suggest you start a new topic, so as to not derail this one?

cc: @angels4u

[Your closest friendnt]

@Vine Abider

It is known that you seek to understand the Gospel and its values on a higher level. 

I have posted the scriptures of Peter's visit to the Roman Centurion and his family and associates. 

And I highlighted what Peter comunicated to them as an introduction before he tells them that God has provided the same way for their forgiveness of their sins as he did for them "by faith in Jesus Christ alone" as they were...they were born Romans and they can remain Romans. 

This was something new to Peter who was preaching the Gospel in the same way as the other disciples did who when Peter told them what happened they refused to believe him.

As we can see the new revelation to Peter caused a division among the disciples in General some believe Peter and some did not and continued in their usual ways..ignoring what Jesus was telling them through Peter and his visit to Cornelius...when the Holy Spirit said to Peter go there and I will put the words in your mouth what to say...

[Vine Abider]

14 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Vine Abider

It is known that you seek to understand the Gospel and its values on a higher level. 

I have posted the scriptures of Peter's visit to the Roman Centurion and his family and associates. 

And I highlighted what Peter comunicated to them as an introduction before he tells them that God has provided the same way for their forgiveness of their sins as he did for them "by faith in Jesus Christ alone" as they were...they were born Romans and they can remain Romans. 

This was something new to Peter who was preaching the Gospel in the same way as the other disciples did who when Peter told them what happened they refused to believe him.

As we can see the new revelation to Peter caused a division among the disciples in General some believe Peter and some did not and continued in their usual ways..ignoring what Jesus was telling them through Peter and his visit to Cornelius...when the Holy Spirit said to Peter go there and I will put the words in your mouth what to say...

Acknowledged . . . but I suggest that you please start a new thread on this topic if you want to discuss further.  Okay bro?

[Your closest friendnt]

18 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

It might be interesting to look at those perceived differences between James' writings and other NT authors. I as well used to not "cotton" to the book of James so much, as is the case with many others.  But the last time the ekklesia here went through his epistle, I got some fresh realization why those differences are not as big as I previously thought.

In any case, may I suggest you start a new topic, so as to not derail this one?

cc: @angels4u

I am not sure as to why you are trying to shut this conversation down the way you are attempting to do it.

I understand that you say that the issue can be isolated and discussed on another  thread.....but why do you have to say that?  Are you not seeing the relevance to the OP about things that Jesus said and do and people find hard to connect to them "at the first instance " till their understanding softens on later on.

And why do you need to go further and use the words "trying to derailed the threat". This is not a true statement and I think it was made in a great hurry...and it doesn't represents by intentions who having asked by another member to elaborate on something I obliged my self to do so...and I did briefly...as to be responsible for I said.

As everything started when someone said where in more that one scripture we can fine words to comunicate that : a few kind words are better than loud words in the face of someone else's.. and someone quoted Romans...

The member said "why so".

And I replied...and it could be in topic to a lot of people if not to all...

[Vine Abider]

6 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I am not sure as to why you are trying to shut this conversation down the way you are attempting to do it.

I understand that you say that the issue can be isolated and discussed on another  thread.....but why do you have to say that?  Are you not seeing the relevance to the OP about things that Jesus said and do and people find hard to connect to them "at the first instance " till their understanding softens on later on.

And why do you need to go further and use the words "trying to derailed the threat". This is not a true statement and I think it was made in a great hurry...and it doesn't represents by intentions who having asked by another member to elaborate on something I obliged my self to do so...and I did briefly...as to be responsible for I said.

As everything started when someone said where in more that one scripture we can fine words to comunicate that : a few kind words are better than loud words in the face of someone else's.. and someone quoted Romans...

The member said "why so".

And I replied...and it could be in topic to a lot of people if not to all...

If the OP wants to discuss this and doesn't think it's too far off topic, then go ahead.

[PATrobas]

9 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

If the OP wants to discuss this and doesn't think it's too far off topic, then go ahead.

I'm all for free speech. I am just reminded of Philippians 2:3-5 is all:

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. :4  Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. :5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

[Your closest friendnt]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:52 PM, PATrobas said:

Reminders – The Hard Sayings of Jesus

            Jesus said some hard things to those that didn’t yet have the ability to understand the meanings of His words. They heard and understood the language He was speaking but they lacked the power to comprehend His message. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus about new life, he understood Jesus’ words about physical birth, but he totally missed the message about spiritual birth and being “born again.” Jesus explained saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, you must be born again.” ^{John 3:5-7} Even after Jesus’ explanation, Nicodemus still did not understand, saying to Him, “How can these things be?” ^{John 3:9}

            After feeding the 5,000 with just five loaves of bread and two fish, a multitude followed Him, seeking to know how to get more free food. Jesus tried to tell them to look beyond physical food for life and to seek spiritual food for eternal life, saying, “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, …I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die, …Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” ^{John 6:27, 48-50, 53} Like Nicodemus, they were only thinking physically and they “quarreled among themselves, saying, How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” ^{John 6:52} Again, Jesus tried to explain the meaning of His words saying, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” ^{John 6:63} Even though He spoke plainly to them, we learn that “From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” ^{John 6:66-68} I don’t think Peter fathomed what Jesus meant any more than those that left, but he grasped enough to recognize the source of eternal life and remain with Him.

            Final Thoughts: To eat the raw flesh or drink the blood of an animal was an abomination to the Jews. To physically do what Jesus said was unthinkable, so they labeled Him a blaspheming heretic and had Him crucified. We, like Peter, know that the Word of God has the words of eternal life. But to unlock the meaning of those words that are written in the Bible and are heard in our hearts takes the power of the Holy Spirit. Let’s neither miss nor dismiss the meaning of the words by failing to ask the author to reveal them, and then give us the faith to believe. Only then, can we do the hard sayings of Jesus.

 

Hello, brother @PATrobas and thank you for the post.

I am not sure if I should comment about Nicodemus or about Jesus comments in the second part of your post.

I will give it a try with Nicodemus. 

Nicodemus went to see Jesus because he wanted to know something from him.

He said to Jesus your works are making me believe that you are the Messiah even thought there are many things about what we expect from the Messiah to do and we are wondering how you are going to deal with them. 

He looked at Jesus and his disciples and was puzzle how he is going to free the land from the Romans...they believed that the Messiah will have to free them from the Romans if not how he is going to be their King.

Jesus knowing what Nicodemus was thinking and the things they were expecting from Him according to their beliefs...He confronted Nicodemus and he started telling him what his mission was and the path that God has chart ahead of him.

Jesus finished by revealing to him who he really is as he portrait him self as the Bronze Serpent the one God had asked Moses to raised up on a stick in the dessert..so the people of God who had committed the unpardonable sin and had died to the Lord and the Lord also punish them with physical death just like the disobedience of Korah in earlier days.

There was nothing in the Law to forgive this sin only Judgment. They had to die, they were poluted and they had nothing to do with the Holy Nation of God. 

Jesus was projecting himself as the healer and the life Giver...he healed those who were cut off from the congregation because of their sins "the lost sheep of Israel" and he gave them Life by forgiving their sins..

Exactly what happened that time in the dessert the Bronze Serpent forgave their sin and he gave them Life back in the congregation of the Lord..

Jesus talked to Nicodemus who belong to the Nation of God because of his eligibility being the descendant of Abraham. 

Jesus said Flesh is flesh referring to the genealogy being the people of God because they were from the chosen seed of Abraham. 

"Our Father Abraham"

Jesus told him you are from the Nation of God because of your being the offspring of Abraham..

And then Jesus is saying something to him that he had never said to anyone before..according to the records...that soon God will have children according to the Spirit from God from above...that must have freaked out Nicodemus. 

Because no one can stand in the presence of God and live not even the High Priest and Jesus was telling him that the new children of God will have to be the Temple of God because they will receive from the spirit of God to identify them as heirs of the Heavenly things as heirs of the Heavenly Inheritance.."Our Heavenly Father", just like Jesus who also said at first "My Heavenly Father". The people were saying "Abraham is our Father" and Jesus was saying "the Heavenly Father is my Father", till the time after the resurrection when Jesus said to Peter "I am going to show my self to My God and your God to my Father and your Father". 

Abraham was the first the corner stone the Patriarch of the people of God. God clean his flesh so him and his chosen descendents can only be the people of God...God set apart Abraham and his chosen offsprings from the rest of the world. (and those who were adapted into his family).  By the Covenant of Cirumcision. (Only by obedience to th Covenant of Cirumcision) from Issac to Jacob and all the household of Jacob. Jesus brought to his attention that will happen when God will provide forgiveness of their sins in the same way he did that time in the dessert through the Bronze Serpent. 

"Unless you see the Son of Man lifted up..."

That time those who were dieing they were not asked to do anything or give any offering to the "Temple" no sacrifice or prayer from anyone not even Moses...

Everything was done out side the "Temple" and without the help of the Priests.

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Your closest friendnt]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:52 PM, PATrobas said:

Reminders – The Hard Sayings of Jesus

            Jesus said some hard things to those that didn’t yet have the ability to understand the meanings of His words. They heard and understood the language He was speaking but they lacked the power to comprehend His message. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus about new life, he understood Jesus’ words about physical birth, but he totally missed the message about spiritual birth and being “born again.” Jesus explained saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, you must be born again.” ^{John 3:5-7} Even after Jesus’ explanation, Nicodemus still did not understand, saying to Him, “How can these things be?” ^{John 3:9}

            After feeding the 5,000 with just five loaves of bread and two fish, a multitude followed Him, seeking to know how to get more free food. Jesus tried to tell them to look beyond physical food for life and to seek spiritual food for eternal life, saying, “Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, …I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die, …Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” ^{John 6:27, 48-50, 53} Like Nicodemus, they were only thinking physically and they “quarreled among themselves, saying, How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” ^{John 6:52} Again, Jesus tried to explain the meaning of His words saying, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” ^{John 6:63} Even though He spoke plainly to them, we learn that “From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.” ^{John 6:66-68} I don’t think Peter fathomed what Jesus meant any more than those that left, but he grasped enough to recognize the source of eternal life and remain with Him.

            Final Thoughts: To eat the raw flesh or drink the blood of an animal was an abomination to the Jews. To physically do what Jesus said was unthinkable, so they labeled Him a blaspheming heretic and had Him crucified. We, like Peter, know that the Word of God has the words of eternal life. But to unlock the meaning of those words that are written in the Bible and are heard in our hearts takes the power of the Holy Spirit. Let’s neither miss nor dismiss the meaning of the words by failing to ask the author to reveal them, and then give us the faith to believe. Only then, can we do the hard sayings of Jesus.

 

It's not easy to comment about as to why Jesus would say those things to people that follow him and were for him and not against him..

It is quite possibly that Jesus as he looked at them he show a vision of the same people shouting "Crusified him, Crusified him" and give us Barnabas and Crusified him".

This is the only reason for Jesus to specifically speaking like that to them looking forwards that those same people will be persuaded to not find their peace until they put him to death and shed his blood on the Cross. 

Jesus also referred to the type of death he will suffered.

It will not be by stoning the way it happened to Stephen or by beheading the way it happened to James or by pushing him down the gorge. Or by the Sword ...when he stopped Peter who endangered  him to die in a fight with Swords...

It must be also that for Peter to used the Sword it was from God because Jesus did not stopped him earlier but after  Peter used his Sword...this act and Jesus healing the ear of the Servant it was ordained by God as to positively identify Jesus Christ being the one they were looking for...because the people were seeking positive Identification and they would not let the other disciples go in case they were played out and someone took Jesus place and that Judas was part of that conspiracy to Identity someone else as Jesus. Jesus at that time he volunteered he healed the Servant's ear and thus he identified himself as the healer and the miracle man and they took him and let the disciples go...

Jesus vision those people who followed him at that time as the visious mob who would not rest till they put him to death. 

What Jesus said to them that time it was (prophetic) of what they will do to him that day on his way to the Cross.  

Jesus told them that this is the only way for the Life to come to people that there was not any other way and when they will remember his words after the fact they will realized that this was the preordained plan of God and they will find it in their hearts to forgive themselves and accept the forgiveness of Jesus Christ as it happened in the day of Pentecost. 

At that time he also show the role judah will play and caution the other disciples not to Joint him.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Your closest friendnt