Alive Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.49 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, other one said: that's what free will is all about. It's not that we are stronger than God, but that he gives us permission to say no. He's looking for people who will be loyal to him and not rebel as Lucifer did. Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,250 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,981 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2023 8 minutes ago, Alive said: Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways. It is by his choice, but you can say no. If not, what's this all about? If it's his choice and we have no input, then none of this even matters. He either made us for heaven or hell from the start..... It would be kind of terrible to think God could create anything just to be punished forever without any choice or input on our side of things. I don't think I could believe he made people just to burn them forever. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,682 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,094 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted July 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, Alive said: Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways. Well I claim to be a Freewill Calvinist. For though I did not want I received. I did not want God, any god. Yet I received because Jesus is faithful to answer prayer. He interceded with His Father to answer prayers of others for my own salvation. God the Holy Spirit then confronted me and I had no choice but to concede. I of my own freewill succumbed, bowed a knee to Jesus, It was all foreknown and predestined to happen; irresistible grace. Fact it happened even before I was, as I fight a battle that has already been won. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 958 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,682 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,094 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, other one said: It would be kind of terrible to think God could create anything just to be punished forever without any choice or input on our side of things. The other side of that particular coin is; how grand is it that God has saved out any of creation? He is the self declared jealous God. His wrath is real and fearsome to behold. He flooded an entirety of His son's creation in His wrath against sin filled humanity, saving but one family from which we all must be descendants. None deserve salvation, for all have sinned against God. Yet God has shown mercy from everlasting to everlasting. He saves out some by that mercy, mercy unmerited at all by anyone or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,350 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,542 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Alive said: Salvation is either by God’s choice or it is not. Can’t have it both ways. This is problematic in logic... it is called a false dilemma false dilemma - Search (bing.com) As it limits God's sovereignty as such: God cannot create an autonomous free willed creature and remain sovereign... Anyone with Bible sense can see the eternal control of God with autonomous free willed creatures by placement in separation from God called hell or joining with God called heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,350 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,542 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Neighbor said: The other side of that particular coin is; how grand is it that God has saved out any of creation? He is the self declared jealous God. His wrath is real and fearsome to behold. He flooded an entirety of His son's creation in His wrath against sin filled humanity, saving but one family from which we all must be descendants. None deserve salvation, for all have sinned against God. Yet God has shown mercy from everlasting to everlasting. He saves out some by that mercy, mercy unmerited at all by anyone or anything. This would be fine if God had not declared otherwise: This even speaking to the elect Israel Ezekiel 33:11 (KJV) [11] Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? and this to NT era 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) [9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Here you will undoubtedly excuse yourself to mystery... but that is denied by God Himself in His Word Isaiah 1:18 (KJV) [18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NConly Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,341 Content Per Day: 2.75 Reputation: 615 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2023 (edited) I have been wondering Edited July 10, 2023 by NConly correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.49 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted July 10, 2023 3 hours ago, other one said: It is by his choice, but you can say no. If not, what's this all about? If it's his choice and we have no input, then none of this even matters. He either made us for heaven or hell from the start..... It would be kind of terrible to think God could create anything just to be punished forever without any choice or input on our side of things. I don't think I could believe he made people just to burn them forever. These matters are only difficult when the entire word of God is not taken into account on a few key issues...all that God has revealed on any given subject. There are no contradictions, when this is done. What is missing with most folks, is the unwillingness to set aside closely held doctrinal high towers (assumptions). This is the result of 'proof texting', to the exclusion of all of scripture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,250 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,981 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Alive said: There are no contradictions, when this is done. The contradictions I have experienced and worked through are usually not really understanding something or some things just don't translate well. Since I discovered my Church of Christ people were telling me things either against scripture or leaving some scripture out at the age of 17, I tend not to get too excited about what other people say about most subjects. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG** Posted July 10, 2023 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 541 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 207 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/06/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 Supplement to the article: What about those in non-Christian lands in say 1600 A.D. who died having never heard a single world of the gospel message? Is God good and just to abandon such persons to Gehenna? And does He actually do that? It is important to find a reasonable solution to the problems raised by these three questions because the notion that God consigns to Gehenna for all eternity all people (past, present, and future) who lived and died without ever hearing the gospel, characterizes God as unreasonable, mean-spirited and cruel (which He most certainly is not). Many who hold the view that God does do exactly that, have not paused to seriously consider what they so readily believe about the character of God. Akua Adisa was born in 1600 A.D. in Africa and he lived to an old age and died without ever hearing a single word of the gospel. Are you going to proclaim that God will consign Akua to sternal Hell and at the same time tell everybody that "God is love?" Remember, on the traditional view of Hell, when Akua has suffered in agony in Hell for 999 trillion (to the power of 500) years, he is no nearer to the end than when he first entered Hell. It is not possible to reconcile such as this with 1 John 4:8 "God is love." Thought Experiment: How long is an Eternity of agony in Hell? Let us say a sparrow is magically assigned the task of cutting the Earth in half and the sparrow is to fly by the Earth every 100 years and brush one of its wings against the ground surface of the Earth. How many years would it take the sparrow to cut the Earth in half? For argument's sake let us say it took in years 999 trillion to the power of 999 trillion. So? So Akua Adisa, after being in agony in Hell for as long as it took that sparrow to cut the Earth in half, would be no closer to the end of his agony than when he first entered Hell. Such as this is not possible to reconcile with 1 John 4:8 "God is love" or with the general character of God as presented in the Bible. We need a solution to this problem and a good start in finding one is God's Middle Knowledge as presented in this article. JAG [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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