Return Native Lands & Provide Reparations for Slavery?

[Vine Abider]

(read this while playing "Beds are Burning" by Midnight Oil . . . just a bit of my warped humor there . . )

This past week we in the USA celebrated our independence from Briton.  On the 4th of July Ben & Jerry's ice cream (I love Cherry Garcia BTW) sent a tweet that the US should give back lands taken from native tribes.  On the tweet it had a picture of Mount Rushmore.  A few days later, a native tribe demanded that Ben & Jerry's give back the tribal land in Vermont that its HQ sits on. So far there is no answer from Ben & Jerry's . . .  https://nypost.com/2023/07/07/ben-jerrys-hq-is-on-native-american-land-vermont-chief/

And the whole reparations for slavery idea seems to keep gaining traction in various places.

In a conversation with my wife about this, we remarked that if all the native lands were given back and slavery reparation payments were made, the country would be vastly different - to say the least - and it may not even survive. (not just the financial impacts, but the myriad of other, less quantifiable affects as well)  My woke friends remind me this this is just me coming from my perspective, as a middle class white male (WASP).

To be sure, the US government did many native American tribes wrong, broke many treaties and did many other lamentable things to the native people already here.  Regarding slavery, it goes without saying that it was reprehensible, and an extremely bloody war was fought to execute the US Constitution's ideal that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." And also reprehensible was the history of how most blacks were treated even after that freeing was initiated . . .

Here's what I wonder --> So let's say we take those two big steps and give back the tribal lands and make slavery reparations.  This will start to clear things up from the last 400 years in America, right? But why stop there? Why not go to Europe and Asia and Africa and keep going back until we have righted all the wrongs that have happened in all of human history!?

Yes, that sounds pretty absurd, at least to me.  This is Adam trying to play God and right all the wrongs his race has done.  Do we think for a moment man could get this right?   And how about what Christ had to say about forgiving one another?  (I know my woke friends - I'm a white man talking about forgiveness when I have been the beneficiary of all the unrighteous acts of my forefathers.)

Here's my bottom-line: Man's efforts are futile. Only One has the "pay grade" to do all this, and it's Jesus Christ.  He will do it righteously on a foundation of love for all of us!  Praise Him!  

[teddyv]

Several years ago, the PM made an official apology to the First Nations of Canada for the role the federal government had in many of the abuses carried out on these people. It was part of many recommendations but the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (modelled after the one in South Africa). The basic act of acknowledgment was greeted gratefully and gracefully. There is a long road ahead in dealing with all the aspects of reconciliation. We are know in that difficult time of sorting it all out and how it will look going forward. 

 

[ayin jade]

Reparations are a bad idea.

Giving the land back to the native americans wont work either. My native american husband, born and raised on the reservation, and I have had many conversations on this topic. The reservation system needs to be overhauled, but not by giving the land back. All that would happen is the land would be bought out cheaply by outsiders to pillage for minerals etc and the natives left with nothing. 

[ayin jade]

My husband also believes that whats past is past and its time to move forward.

[FJK]

Wars of ethnic clashes are on the horizon over things like this, and wars are either winner takes all or they just set the stage for the next one as the issues raise their heads again in the future.

Nation against Nation and Kingdom against Kingdom on a scale not yet seen in this world, this is the way it is prophesied to be and what is prophesied is what will take place.

[other one]

9 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Reparations are a bad idea.

Giving the land back to the native americans wont work either. My native american husband, born and raised on the reservation, and I have had many conversations on this topic. The reservation system needs to be overhauled, but not by giving the land back. All that would happen is the land would be bought out cheaply by outsiders to pillage for minerals etc and the natives left with nothing. 

I agree, it would only work if everyone else left them alone. As I see it the reason the reservations constantly fail is because the Federal Government is still in control, and they are not concerned about the Indian population.  Still the program seems to be to keep natives down.

 

I might add that the Chickasaws did quite well as long as the Federal Government left them alone.  We even leased out land to the white folks and both prospered until the Government looked in and decided that wasn't good and broke up the Chickasaw nation up into individual owners where exactly happened what you say.

My question is where would the decedents of the slaves go if all the land went back to the Natives.

[JimmyB]

13 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

(read this while playing "Beds are Burning" by Midnight Oil . . . just a bit of my warped humor there . . )

This past week we in the USA celebrated our independence from Briton.  On the 4th of July Ben & Jerry's ice cream (I love Cherry Garcia BTW) sent a tweet that the US should give back lands taken from native tribes.  On the tweet it had a picture of Mount Rushmore.  A few days later, a native tribe demanded that Ben & Jerry's give back the tribal land in Vermont that its HQ sits on. So far there is no answer from Ben & Jerry's . . .  https://nypost.com/2023/07/07/ben-jerrys-hq-is-on-native-american-land-vermont-chief/

And the whole reparations for slavery idea seems to keep gaining traction in various places.

In a conversation with my wife about this, we remarked that if all the native lands were given back and slavery reparation payments were made, the country would be vastly different - to say the least - and it may not even survive. (not just the financial impacts, but the myriad of other, less quantifiable affects as well)  My woke friends remind me this this is just me coming from my perspective, as a middle class white male (WASP).

To be sure, the US government did many native American tribes wrong, broke many treaties and did many other lamentable things to the native people already here.  Regarding slavery, it goes without saying that it was reprehensible, and an extremely bloody war was fought to execute the US Constitution's ideal that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights." And also reprehensible was the history of how most blacks were treated even after that freeing was initiated . . .

Here's what I wonder --> So let's say we take those two big steps and give back the tribal lands and make slavery reparations.  This will start to clear things up from the last 400 years in America, right? But why stop there? Why not go to Europe and Asia and Africa and keep going back until we have righted all the wrongs that have happened in all of human history!?

Yes, that sounds pretty absurd, at least to me.  This is Adam trying to play God and right all the wrongs his race has done.  Do we think for a moment man could get this right?   And how about what Christ had to say about forgiving one another?  (I know my woke friends - I'm a white man talking about forgiveness when I have been the beneficiary of all the unrighteous acts of my forefathers.)

Here's my bottom-line: Man's efforts are futile. Only One has the "pay grade" to do all this, and it's Jesus Christ.  He will do it righteously on a foundation of love for all of us!  Praise Him!  

Reductio ad absurdum!

[Vine Abider]

11 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Reparations are a bad idea.

Giving the land back to the native americans wont work either. My native american husband, born and raised on the reservation, and I have had many conversations on this topic. The reservation system needs to be overhauled, but not by giving the land back. All that would happen is the land would be bought out cheaply by outsiders to pillage for minerals etc and the natives left with nothing. 

 

11 hours ago, ayin jade said:

My husband also believes that whats past is past and its time to move forward.

Mankind is fascinated with the idea that we can somehow correct all the past wrongs and somehow create a utopia - utter folly!  It is akin to a child trying to perform brain surgery, and I can think of several other gruesome, medical analogies as to what could/would transpire.   There is only One capable of doing this!

"Therefore let us not judge one another any more." "God will judge the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." "The Father . . . has committed all the judgement to the Son . . . [He] has given Him authority to execute judgement also, because He is the Son of Man" (Rom 14:13 & 2:16, John 5:22)

 

1 hour ago, other one said:

I agree, it would only work if everyone else left them alone. As I see it the reason the reservations constantly fail is because the Federal Government is still in control, and they are not concerned about the Indian population.  Still the program seems to be to keep natives down.

I might add that the Chickasaws did quite well as long as the Federal Government left them alone.  We even leased out land to the white folks and both prospered until the Government looked in and decided that wasn't good and broke up the Chickasaw nation up into individual owners where exactly happened what you say.

My question is where would the decedents of the slaves go if all the land went back to the Natives.

What can be said about this?!  The Federal government involvement . . . what could possibly go wrong?!

There are so, so many layers to this thing.  Yes, I admit that us white folk have gained from the past actions of greed, and it would be extremely painful to give everything back.  But, if that happened and as Christians, we would have to say, "Lord, Your graceful supply is always sufficient for us!"

And confessedly one could say, "You're only preaching forgiveness of these sins of your forefathers, because it would benefit you."  Could be . . .

But to then try and correct what our ancestors (on all sides) experienced and did, how does that work!?  Does any real good come out of it?  And again, why then stop at going back 400 years in America  -let's keep going!

My hypothesis is that man playing God in this matter, will cause much more harm to both sides.

[teddyv]

11 hours ago, ayin jade said:

Reparations are a bad idea.

Giving the land back to the native americans wont work either. My native american husband, born and raised on the reservation, and I have had many conversations on this topic. The reservation system needs to be overhauled, but not by giving the land back. All that would happen is the land would be bought out cheaply by outsiders to pillage for minerals etc and the natives left with nothing. 

I can only speak for my area, but it's not about giving the land back, its about having a meaningful say in what happens on the land. This matter affects my industry significantly (mineral exploration and mining). 

There are several examples of large hydroelectric dams being put in place back in the '50's and '60's. The first that the local First Nations heard about it was when the water started rising in the reservoir area. There was no meaningful consultation or suitable compensation for drowning vast areas of traditional lands. This lack of dialogue or consultation was pretty standard until several significant lawsuits back in the late '90's.

[other one]

Actually most Chickasaws are doing OK these days and we are taking the proceeds of the casinos to buy back the Chickasaw Nation that was broken up into individual ownership.

I overheard the Chickasaw governor tell two attorneys that he didn't care what it cost, if it was part of the original nation in Oklahoma buy it; they'll never take it away from us again.   They took it from us mainly due to alcohol, and we'll get it back with their addiction to gambling.

I didn't know whether to be proud or disgusted.   but it is what it is.   Most of the Chickasaws I know, and all of my wife's family, but one, are believers