How could the unbelieving world receive salvation and be saved in the great tribulation ?

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There's nothing wrong with honest history. It is simply a recording of what happened. Not everything is recorded in the Bible! Some things are recorded in extrabiblical, historical books. Even histories by those considered enemies of Christianity, like Josephus, can be valuable sources of information. First and Second Maccabees are not considered canonical, but they give valuable information about the time of the oppression of the Seleucid Empire under Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" and the opposing Hasmonean dynasty. This was at a time BETWEEN the Old and New Testaments; so, neither Testament writes about that time period!

I disagree.  

 

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

OSAS is simply the wrong wording. It should be OJBGAJBG - "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God!" It's not something that we could affect either way! It's ALL about God's choice!

Is that what you get from this? 
 

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

because I don't.  I believe God sets before SOME OF US life or death and says 'choose'

BUT even with that, I ALSO believe there are those who have been pre ordained, they are not the same as those who hear the WORD and come to faith...

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's not "eternal life in the Lake of Fire'; it's ETERNAL DEATH in the Lake of Fire!

Agreed

 

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There's no "pretribulational rapture," because we're already IN the tribulation! Thus, a rapture BEFORE the tribulation is impossible, now!

and I believe there is no 'pre the 'last week' rapture, which I don't believe has begun and even when it has many won't know until the 'deadly wound' and the image set up to worship.  

 

 

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The believing Gentiles are grafted into the children of Israel, through the blood of the Messiah. He is Jewish; so, we are also in the tribe of Yhudah. Therefore, we are part of the ORIGINAL church (ekkleesia), which went through the wilderness for forty years.

Again, AGREED.  How much fun is that!

 

 

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

A person is only ONE body, and that body happens to be physical. It was called a "soomata psuchikon" or an "air-breathing body." When it is TRANSFORMED, it's still the same body, but its DESIGN has changed! Now, it's not just an "air-breathing body"; it is a "soomata pneumatikon" or an "air-BLASTING body!" It was translated as a "natural body" and a "spiritual body," but it might just as easily be called a "natural body" and a "SUPERNATURAL body." Nevertheless, BOTH bodies are still PHYSICAL!  What did Yeeshuwa` tell His disciples?

That was short.  

There is nothing of this earth body that rises up to heaven EXCEPT 'a grain' of it 
 

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

the 'perishable' body 'made of the dust of the earth' goes back to 'the dust of the earth'

and is replaced by 

the non perishable body, the body of the spiritual realm, the 'invisible' to us now in this realm rises.

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


And it is raised SOON after the first body dies, IF we have come to faith and FOLLOWED HIM to be where He is because

we never die aka go to the place of the dead.  WE don't die because we KNOW the way and the RESURRECTION.  

The DEAD on the other hand, don't know the way as they have never been 'born from above' like we have, so they descend, not having received THE GIFT OF SALVATION.  BUT not to worry, when Christ returns, both the just and the unjust DEAD will rise (not all of them but only those who have never received Gods Truth and so have never chosen between life and death) and will have 1000 years to get their names in the book of life.  So, THEY TOO, will be raised up in a spiritual body.  


44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And yes, they are BOTH physical and both 'air breathing'...


Christs body, in death and resurrection is different than ours because HIS NATURAL body DIDN'T GO back to dust like OURS DOES because SATAN wasn't getting any part of Him.  You have to admit HAVING GOD as His Father made Him to be 'in the likeness' of flesh but still not completely the same.  We don't have to go to hell to free those in bondage like He did.  So while we are RAISED in glory and will be like Him it won't be because God raised up 'dust' for a sinful flesh that has become a carcass.  

How can we be sure this 'body' has no meaning after the first death?  


 

 

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

You're not paying attention to the parable. He gathers OUT of the Messiah's Kingdom all things that offend AT THE TIME OF HARVEST! Then, the children of the Kingdom are gathered into the FATHER'S Kingdom!

Remember:  "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

There are TWO DIFFERENT KINGDOMS in view here! The Messiah's Kingdom will be a thousand years older than the Father's Kingdom. Armageddon happens AT THE BEGINNING of the Messiah's Kingdom, and it is then that its borders go from the Euphrates to the "River of Egypt." AT THE END of the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom, there will be the Fire, the 2nd Resurrection = the Resurrection of the Unjust, and the Great White Throne Judgment with the judged being sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

It is at this point in time that the Father's Kingdom begins as the Father forms the New Earth, its New Sky, and the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth. Then, the Messiah is subject to His Father, and turns over the Empire to Him, as the Messiah goes on to reign just over the Land of Israel, which is now the New Jerusalem, stretching from the southern border of Egypt to the middle of the Black Sea, and from almost half of the Mediterranean Sea to the northwest quadrant of Iran!

Now from my understanding ,The occupants of the kingdom are burned up at the time Messiah recieves his kingdom.That being the land between the Euphrates to the Nile.Only those who recieve rain in that land are not consumed.

At least that is the kingdom the US is to destroy and innihilate many.

Daniel 11:44

⁴⁴ But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.

 

It is at that time that kingdom  becomes the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ.

 

15

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Oh, and one more thing: There was only ONE Creation, and God did it in SIX DAYS, RESTING ON A SEVENTH DAY. HaSatan was the "original serpent" and he was a CREATED being, created on Day Six with other land animals and the Man.

Disagree.  

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:2 KJV



"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3 KJV



To save you the trip  


1909 [e]    ἐπ’
ep’    in    Prep
2078 [e]    ἐσχάτου
eschatou    last    Adj-GNS
3588 [e]    τῶν
tōn    -    Art-GFP
2250 [e]    ἡμερῶν
hēmerōn    days    N-GFP
3778 [e]    τούτων
toutōn    these    DPro-GFP
2980 [e]    ἐλάλησεν
elalēsen    has spoken    V-AIA-3S
1473 [e]    ἡμῖν
hēmin    to us    PPro-D1P
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    in    Prep
5207 [e]    Υἱῷ,
Huiō    [His] Son,    N-DMS
3739 [e]    ὃν
hon    whom    RelPro-AMS
5087 [e]    ἔθηκεν
ethēken    He appointed    V-AIA-3S
2818 [e]    κληρονόμον
klēronomon    heir    N-AMS
3956 [e]    πάντων,
pantōn    of all things,    Adj-GNP
1223 [e]    δι’
di’    through    Prep
3739 [e]    οὗ
hou    whom    RelPro-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    also    Conj
4160 [e]    ἐποίησεν
epoiēsen    He made    V-AIA-3S
3588 [e]    τοὺς
tous    the    Art-AMP
165 [e]    αἰῶνας·
aiōnas    ages,    N-AMP                                    Plural

and since we haven't gotten to the Lords Day or the New Heaven and New Earth in which WE WON'T REMEMBER this world aka another 'in the beginning' is coming AND those haven't been yet...


and 

4102 [e]    Πίστει
Pistei    By faith    N-DFS
3539 [e]    νοοῦμεν
nooumen    we understand    V-PIA-1P
2675 [e]    κατηρτίσθαι
katērtisthai    to have been formed    V-RNM/P
3588 [e]    τοὺς
tous    the    Art-AMP
165 [e]    αἰῶνας
aiōnas    universe    N-AMP                                           PLURAL
4487 [e]    ῥήματι
rhēmati    by [the] word    N-DNS
2316 [e]    Θεοῦ,
Theou    of God,    N-GMS
1519 [e]    εἰς
eis    so that    Prep
3588 [e]    τὸ
to    which    Art-ANS
3361 [e]    μὴ
mē    not    Adv
1537 [e]    ἐκ
ek    from [things]    Prep
5316 [e]    φαινομένων
phainomenōn    being visible,    V-PPM/P-GNP
3588 [e]    τὸ
to    the things    Art-ANS
991 [e]    βλεπόμενον
blepomenon    being seen    V-PPM/P-ANS
1096 [e]    γεγονέναι.
gegonenai    have been made.    V-RNA


third of course...the AGE that watched the EARTH being created

7442 [e]    בְּרָן־
bə-rān-    When sang    Prep-b | V-Qal-Inf
3162 [e]    יַ֭חַד
ya-ḥaḏ    together    Adv
3556 [e]    כּ֣וֹכְבֵי
kō-wḵ-ḇê    the stars    N-mpc
1242 [e]    בֹ֑קֶר
ḇō-qer;    morning    N-ms
7321 [e]    וַ֝יָּרִ֗יעוּ
way-yā-rî-‘ū,    and shouted for joy    Conj-w | V-Hifil-ConsecImperf-3mp
3605 [e]    כָּל־
kāl-    all    N-msc
1121 [e]    בְּנֵ֥י
bə-nê    the sons    N-mpc
430 [e]    אֱלֹהִֽים׃
’ĕ-lō-hîm.    of God    N-mp


fourth what appeared IN HEAVEN and so is not what will be appearing on earth for the final week of natural bodies....

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


as we can see is DIFFERENT than what is coming to the earth when they are kicked out of heaven....

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

AT THE END of the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom, there will be the Fire, the 2nd Resurrection = the Resurrection of the Unjust, and the Great White Throne Judgment with the judged being sentenced to the Lake of Fire.

Wouldn't one have to be ONE OF THE DEAD to be resurrected 'when the DEAD rise'?  

How does what you said not conflict with 

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (THOSE WHO SLEPT, and were 'DEAD' because of the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH, who were currently paying the PENALTY of sin but were about to have their graves opened, when He descended and they HEARD THE GOOD NEWS which set them FREE from that bondage and so He leads that 'captivity'  to heaven, their sins being washed clean NOW REDEEMED, the ransom paid)


 

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

THE NEW COVENANT of being under GRACE so that even if one DIES with sin that would have sent them to hell NO LONGER go to hell HAVING RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION...

Everyone who has the gift of salvation when they die IS SAVED from going to hell, NO PENALTY do they have to pay.   Their spirit leaving the natural body sown, their spirit in their spiritual body rises and FOLLOWS HIM to go be where He is  aka NEVER DIE.  


1680 [e]    ἐλπίδα
elpida    a hope    N-AFS
2192 [e]    ἔχων
echōn    having    V-PPA-NMS
1519 [e]    εἰς
eis    in    Prep
3588 [e]    τὸν
ton    -    Art-AMS
2316 [e]    Θεόν,
Theon    God    N-AMS
3739 [e]    ἣν
hēn    which    RelPro-AFS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    also    Conj
846 [e]    αὐτοὶ
autoi    they    PPro-NM3P
3778 [e]    οὗτοι
houtoi    themselves    DPro-NMP
4327 [e]    προσδέχονται,
prosdechontai    await,    V-PIM/P-3P
386 [e]    ἀνάστασιν
anastasin    [that] a resurrection    N-AFS                                 SINGULAR, NOT 2
3195 [e]    μέλλειν
mellein    there is about    V-PNA
1510 [e]    ἔσεσθαι
esesthai    to be    V-FNM
1342 [e]    δικαίων
dikaiōn    of [the] just    Adj-GMP
5037 [e]    τε
te    both    Conj
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
94 [e]    ἀδίκων.
adikōn    of [the] unjust.    Adj-GMP


A SINGULAR RESURRECTION OF JUST BOTH AND UNJUST



Let's get technical   

in THESS we have AT THE COMING OF THE LORD


 

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

THOSE WHO FOLLOWED HIM ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM 

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

THOSE WHO DIE/SLEEP DON'T WAIT FOR ANYONE, LET ALONE FOR THOSE WHO WILL ENDURE TO THE END TO 'RISE UP'.  The 'last day' resurrection is for THE DEAD, not for those who NEVER DIE.  
 

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Why it says 'IN CHRIST' here I can ONLY speculate as to them being those who are THE JUST and who BY WORKS over the next 1000 years will get their names in the book of life BUT I CAN'T SAY 'I KNOW' that to be GODS TRUTH, I am just guessing but FOR THE SAKE OF THIS ARGUMENT it is DISTINGUISHED FROM 

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

who I would speculate might be those who at the end of the 1000 years end up in the Lake of fire for the 2nd death BUT EITHER WAY they 

are THE DEAD and they are NOT in Christ as written here.  


And what do we know about the DEAD who are raised up from the corruption 

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

THAT just like THIS FLESH AND BLOOD BODY isn't 'raised up' to heaven but only 'quickens' the seed for the 'spiritual tabernacle' 

those who rise up from the corruption (THINK THE OFFERING OF CAIN) won't be receiving their IMMORTALITY...at least not unless they get their name in the book of life before the GWTJ.  


BUT I do agree, there will be ANOTHER 'resurrection' of the dead at the end of the Lords Day which would be of the angels held in chains, those made for destruction and those who chose death as they didn't have to be resurrected as there were NO WORKS they could have done, there are no second chances...

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by DeighAnn

[Strict Machine]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:11 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Doesn't have to be your last time; your opinions are always welcome here. (Even when I don't agree with them.)

Huh??? We're not told ANYWHERE that "the AOD is destroyed by the brightness of the return of Christ!" That's just TOO WEIRD!

Titus wasn't the AOD; he ERECTED that which was considered an AOD! It was an abomination that desecrated the Temple grounds, and led to the devastation - the desolation - that emptied out the Temple and the city!

And the Messiah said He wouldn't return until the children of Yhudah can say, "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHWH."

That is NOT what is written. First of all, the "A O D" is not a person. The "abomination of desolation" is the detestable thing that leads to barrenness. It is a thing erected, not a person standing!

Second, Yeeshuwa` SPLIT the last Seven in half! The first half was the 3.5 years of His First Advent's "Ministry" - His offer of the Kingdom to His own tribe, Yhudah ("Judah"), the Jews! The second half will be the 3.5 years of His offer of the Kingdom to Yhudah again, and it picks up right where He left off when He comes the second time. Thus, the TRUE tribulation period is SANDWICHED between the two halves of the 70th Seven ("Week"), for HE is the One who "shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by being the LAST Sacrifice God would accept), and for the overspreading of abominations (by the Pharisees)  he shall make it (the city) desolate (empty), even until the consummation (the end), and that determined (the tribulation; the Time of Jacob's Trouble, in the meantime) shall be poured upon the (ones left) desolate," (i.e., the Jews)!

There's nothing wrong with honest history. It is simply a recording of what happened. Not everything is recorded in the Bible! Some things are recorded in extrabiblical, historical books. Even histories by those considered enemies of Christianity, like Josephus, can be valuable sources of information. First and Second Maccabees are not considered canonical, but they give valuable information about the time of the oppression of the Seleucid Empire under Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" and the opposing Hasmonean dynasty. This was at a time BETWEEN the Old and New Testaments; so, neither Testament writes about that time period!

OSAS is simply the wrong wording. It should be OJBGAJBG - "Once Justified By God, ALWAYS Justified By God!" It's not something that we could affect either way! It's ALL about God's choice!

Yeeshuwa` DID accomplish what we human beings could NEVER pull off on our own! However, we are His SLAVES and owe Him EVERYTHING! So, we DO have to work and do whatever He demands of us.

It's not "eternal life in the Lake of Fire'; it's ETERNAL DEATH in the Lake of Fire!

There's no "pretribulational rapture," because we're already IN the tribulation! Thus, a rapture BEFORE the tribulation is impossible, now!

The believing Gentiles are grafted into the children of Israel, through the blood of the Messiah. He is Jewish; so, we are also in the tribe of Yhudah. Therefore, we are part of the ORIGINAL church (ekkleesia), which went through the wilderness for forty years.

A person is only ONE body, and that body happens to be physical. It was called a "soomata psuchikon" or an "air-breathing body." When it is TRANSFORMED, it's still the same body, but its DESIGN has changed! Now, it's not just an "air-breathing body"; it is a "soomata pneumatikon" or an "air-BLASTING body!" It was translated as a "natural body" and a "spiritual body," but it might just as easily be called a "natural body" and a "SUPERNATURAL body." Nevertheless, BOTH bodies are still PHYSICAL!  What did Yeeshuwa` tell His disciples?

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE." 

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And HE TOOK IT, AND DID EAT BEFORE THEM.

And, we also have this Scripture:

1 John 3: 1-3 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

One should understand, however, that His body was still physical! He could be handled, and He could consume food. There's NOTHING WRONG with the physical when it has been REDESIGNED as a SUPERNATURAL body that is no longer corruptible! It will NEVER DECAY AGAIN!

Oh, and one more thing: There was only ONE Creation, and God did it in SIX DAYS, RESTING ON A SEVENTH DAY. HaSatan was the "original serpent" and he was a CREATED being, created on Day Six with other land animals and the Man.

i liked your post about how the tribulation started in the 1st century, this makes sense because of all the historical events accurately predicted anywhere from hundreds of years before they happen up to over a thousand years before, especially the "number" prophecies like daniel and the 2520 and the parts of Revelation that have specific numbers of days/years attached to them.  we only need to be watching for the events of the very end, such as the drying of the Euphrates because this means Jesus is coming soon, and by soon i mean within months, weeks, or maybe even hours

[Marilyn C]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:39 PM, R. Hartono said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 3%3A10&version=KJV 

At circa 85 AD Jesus warned about the coming Great Tribulation that will test the whole unbelieving world. He called it the HOUR of Trial. Not just the trial.

How could the left behind be saved from the destruction of 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials ?

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/293940-the-7-apocalyptic-trumpets/

Adding to that there will be global persecution of people who refuse to worship the beast and refuse to receive its 666 Mark shall be killed. Billions might perished.

Any chance of salvation and safety ?

God is a God of mercy even amid His judgments upon the earth.

`After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number.....These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.` (Rev. 7: 9 & 14)

[Retrobyter]

31 minutes ago, Strict Machine said:

i liked your post about how the tribulation started in the 1st century, this makes sense because of all the historical events accurately predicted anywhere from hundreds of years before they happen up to over a thousand years before, especially the "number" prophecies like daniel and the 2520 and the parts of Revelation that have specific numbers of days/years attached to them.  we only need to be watching for the events of the very end, such as the drying of the Euphrates because this means Jesus is coming soon, and by soon i mean within months, weeks, or maybe even hours

Shalom, Strict Machine.

Thank you for that, but I always try to remind people genuinely accepting God's truth that we are not going to see our Lord return until His people can WELCOME Him back! THAT'S the real key! Now, this is going to be long, but it's RICH with the truth of how the languages of Hebrew and Greek were translated (or transliterated) into English.

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you DESOLATE. (See Daniel 9:27.) 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.' (Psalm 118:26)."

Here's Psalm 118:26 in context: (It's a long song, but it is ONE SONG!)

Psalm 118:1-29 (KJV)

1 O give thanks unto the LORD (YHWH); for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
2 Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
3 Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
4 Let them now that fear the LORD (YHWH) say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
5 I called upon the LORD (YHWH) in distress: the LORD (YHWH) answered me, and set me in a large place.
6 The LORD (YHWH) is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
7 The LORD (YHWH) taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.
8 It is better to trust in the LORD (YHWH) than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the LORD (YHWH) than to put confidence in princes.
10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD (YHWH) will I destroy them.
11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD (YHWH) I will destroy them.
12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD (YHWH) I will destroy them.
13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD (YHWH) helped me.
14 The LORD (YHWH) is my strength and song, and is become my salvation (Hebrew: לִ֝֗י לִֽישׁוּעָֽה  = "liy li-Yshuw`aah" = "to-my to-Yeeshuwa`").
15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD (YHWH) doeth valiantly.
16 The right hand of the LORD (YHWH) is exalted: the right hand of the LORD (YHWH) doeth valiantly.
17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD (YHWH).
18 The LORD (YHWH) hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD (YHWH):
20 This gate of the LORD (YHWH), into which the righteous shall enter.
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation (Hebrew: לִ֝֗י לִֽישׁוּעָֽה  = "liy li-Yshuw`aah" = "to-my to-Yeeshuwa`").
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S (YHWH'S) doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD (YHWH) hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: הֹושִׁ֘יעָ֥ה נָּ֑א = "Howshiy`aah naa' " = Greek:  Ὡσαννὰ "Hoosanna" = "Rescue-us now!"), I beseech thee, O LORD (YHWH): O LORD (YHWH), I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 BLESSED BE HE THAT COMETH IN THE NAME OF THE LORD (Hebrew: בָּר֣וּךְ הַ֭בָּא בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהוָ֑ה = "Baaruwkh habaa' bsheem YHWH" = "Welcome the-Comer in-name of-YHWH"): we have blessed you (welcomed you) out of the house of the LORD.
27 God is the LORD (YHWH), which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.
28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.
29 O give thanks unto the LORD (YHWH); for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Immediately after He said this, according to Matittyahuw ("Matthew"), He said in the Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 24:5-14 (KJV)

5 "For many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am Christ' ('I am the Messiah'); and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (literally, Then shall they deliver you up into TRIBULATION), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the end come."

His discourse is interesting in the Greek: He uses a "sawtooth pattern" when He reveals the future in this prophecy. He starts out talking directly to the men sitting in front of Him when He says "you" or "ye" (in Greek, "humeis," "humas," "humin," or "humoon," [where 'oo' represents an omega]) And then, He moves off farther and farther into the future, and then He snaps back to the present again, again using these pronouns.

Verse 14 is key: The gospel (good news) of the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the world for a witness unto all nations must be done first, and THEN the end shall come!

This gospel of the Kingdom is NOT "the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord," for Yeeshuwa` Himself heralded that good news AT THE BEGINNING of His "ministry!" (Mark 1:14-15.) Many didn't even KNOW that He was the Messiah, let alone would die and rise again!

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

Paul gives the Romans quotes from Scripture that clear this up:

Romans 10:13-15 (KJV)

13 For "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Joel 2:32.)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Isaiah 52:7.)

This is frequently used to win someone to the Lord in the "Romans' Road" to "salvation," but look at the context of these two verses:

Joel 2:28-32 (KJV)

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD (YHWH) come."

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (YHWH) shall be delivered: for "in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance," as the LORD (YHWH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (YHWH) shall call.

And,

Isaiah 52:1-10 (KJV)

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. 2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. 3 For thus saith the LORD (YHWH),

"Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money."

4 For thus saith the Lord GOD (Adonay YHWH),

"My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 5 Now therefore, what have I here," saith the LORD, "that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl," saith the LORD; "and my name continually every day is blasphemed. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I!"

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, "Thy God reigneth!"

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD (YHWH) shall bring again Zion!

9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD (YHWH) hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

10 The LORD (YHWH) hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (DELIVERANCE; RESCUE; Hebrew: יְשׁוּעַ֥ת = "Yshuw`at") of our God.

The Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, IS God's "Holy Arm!"

Therefore, we must herald or announce this good news about the Messiah's coming KINGDOM BEFORE He returns! We've hardly BEGUN to do this!

[Strict Machine]

Byter,

the number of messianic jews is growing, i know this is the key to Jesus return.  i am part hebrew myself, my grandfather was full jewish on both sides and my family is famous in europe because hitler almost killed them all in the holocaust, so i am eager to see the jews accept Jesus.  other than praying, i don't think we can speed this up.  those verses are good, you have done a very good examination of the bible

[luigi]

On 8/5/2023 at 6:39 AM, R. Hartono said:

 

Adding to that there will be global persecution of people who refuse to worship the beast and refuse to receive its 666 Mark shall be killed. Billions might perished.

 

Billion of people will perish during the reign of the Beast. According to the angel in Revelation 17:8, the Beast ascends from the bottomless pit, which is opened in Revelation 9. In Revelation 9:15-19 we see four angels who are released to influence the kings of the earth to utilize their combined worldwide armed forces, totaling 200 million, to enact genocide, killing 1/3 of mankind. When you put one and one together; the 1/3 of mankind who are killed during the Beasts reign would be those not participating in the Beasts system.

Edited August 19, 2023 by luigi

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

Billion of people will perish during the reign of the Beast. According to the angel in Revelation 17:8, the Beast ascends from the bottomless pit, which is opened in Revelation 9. In Revelation 9:15-19 we see four angels who are released to influence the kings of the earth to utilize their combined worldwide armed forces, totaling 200 million, to enact genocide, killing 1/3 of mankind. When you put one and one together; the 1/3 of mankind who are killed during the Beasts reign would be those not participating in the Beasts system.

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

ONE ENTITY consisting of 7 heads which utilize the power of 10 kings.  Agreed or not? 
 

2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

IT COMES up QUICK like a leopard
It is oppressive like the feet of a bear
It has a mouth that can rip and tear to pieces like a lion
stuff like that and it has all the power and authority of Satan, the devil, the dragon, that old serpent
AKA the '10 toes' of the Statute kingdoms the last on earth before Christ returns, AGREED?


3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

2296 thaumázō (from 2295 /thaúma, "a wonder, marvel") – properly, wonder at, be amazed (marvel), i.e. astonished out of one's senses; awestruck, "wondering very greatly" (Souter); to cause "wonder; . . . to regard with amazement, and with a suggestion of beginning to speculate on the matter" (WS, 225).

 

4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

3528 nikáō(from 3529 /níkē, "victory") – properly, conquer (overcome); " 'to carry off the victory, come off victorious.' The verb implies a battle" (K. Wuest).

DO YOU SEE PHYSICAL DEATH in one who is 'overcome'?   If one is DECEIVED then one believes LIES OVER THE TRUTH and without truth one would worship another, aka 'fall away', right? 

 

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9If any man have an ear, let him hear.


 

When you say 'killing' are you speaking of a Spiritual death or Physical one? 

If they all were to all be 'physical' WHO is doing all the killing?   


So, if it is physical then how does this fit? 

12Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

WOULDN'T GETTING PREPARED for no buying and selling BE A PART OF HAVING DONE ALL????

14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

as for Rev 9 

NOT SURE HOW YOU SEE CHRISTIANS AS BEING THE ONES 'KILLED' be it physical or spiritual 

 

12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.


SO THESE ARE ANGELS OF GOD BEING LOOSED, CORRECT? 

15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

OF GODS ARMY, CORRECT?  NOT SATANS, CORRECT?

17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

LOF WHAT DOES IT CONSIST OF?
 

18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

WORDS come out of the mouth, correct?

19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.


 

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues

yet repented not

of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.



WITH THAT, I DON'T FOLLOW WHAT YOU PUT FORTH.  COULD YOU EXPLAIN THE CONTRADICTIONS PLEASE.


you see PRE TRIB RAPTURE makes everything dark and confusing,

what can one expect when

THE LIGHT is put UNDER A BASKET 

or the salt doesn't salt the earth and get trampled

AND THEN how is God to judge?