Any thoughts on this?

[Still Alive]

On 8/6/2023 at 12:52 PM, Stan Murff said:

I go to a non denomination church that has teachings similar to some of the popular tv preachers out there such as Joel Osteen.

The question I have is why is it wrong for Christians to drink alcohol at home and get what some would classify as getting drunk?  I've done this on weekends after working hard all week for years.  Someone recently told me this was a sin?

Most of the preachers I have heard say that our future sins are already forgiven and once we get saved we have eternal life and nobody and take us away from the Lord.

What's the deal with this anyway?  I'm not hurting anybody and I don't drive while drinking or operate heavy machinery or anything dangerous to hurt me or my wife or kids.  I don't get falling down drunk, just buzzed real good.  I know others in my church that say they do the same and have no problem with it.

Should I be worried about this?  Or is it true that all future sins are already forgiven and it's no big deal?

I have no problem with other people drinking. I drank until last year, and I might find myself having a half oz of bourbon every now and then. 

But I look at it this way. We sin when we "break God's rules". And if one notices, all of God's rules are there to help/benefit us, just as a parent tells you to look both ways before crossing the street. You can violate your parent's rules or God's rules. It doesn't mean you are written out of the will, but It may harm you if you do.

I don't drink now because I had open heart surgery in March, and am still on a blood thinner and blood pressure medication. It's best if I "mostly" avoid alcohol. Getting "drunk" is not really healthy for a bunch of reasons. I understand that it is sometimes just getting a "buzz". Heck, I've not gotten really "drunk" for decades. I've forgotten what a hangover even feels like. 

Final note: When we moved from Seattle to rural Kentucky 12 years ago, we went to a few churches before finally settling on one. The others were baptist, and downright Muslim in their hatred of alcohol. They were also quite dogmatic in all their beliefs. There was really no room for disagreement. I did not want to "sew division" in those churches so I left. I finally ended up at a "Christian" church where folks would respect my different opinions on some subjects (e.g. I'm quite against the teaching of ECT). 

A pastor at a large Louisville church (near a Christian college with a lot of teachers and professors from that college in his congregation) that had experience with a lot of the very small rural churches in Kentucky made an interesting comment to me one day: The more people know about the bible and its origins, the less "sure" they are about their "lower level" doctrine beliefs.

And that's where I am with alcohol. You are not doing yourself any favors getting drunk, but I don't personally consider consuming alcohol to be a "sin", generally speaking. It depends on the individual. Remember, "sin" just means doing a "bad thing". And if you are an alcoholic that has gone dry, drinking is a sin for you. 

I live by this motto: In heaven, all the intersections have yield signs.😉

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

6 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

I have no problem with other people drinking

The Lord does... it's an evil thing with many places in scripture saying it's evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

2 Corinthians 6:17
come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

James 4:4
know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Plus, today's medical science has proven that alcohol is damaging to your body.  Sure, some element in wine are good for you but you can get the same thing from grape juice.  The alcohol content is damaging to our body.

And by the way, Jesus taught sinners would be tormented in hell for all of eternity because He said that hell was made for satan and his fallen angels so sinners going to hell will get the reward of their father the devil, eternal torment!

Those opposing the teachings of the Lord will be shocked one day to find out what happens when one stands in opposition to the Lord.  But, that's an entirely different convo.

 

18 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

The more people know about the bible and its origins, the less "sure" they are about their "lower level" doctrine beliefs.

Meh, that's just the devil doing to people what he did to Adam and Eve... "did God really say???"


 

[FJK]

2 Corinthians 6:17 is a powerful verse and one that we should keep in mind in everything that we do.

A secular saying someone once told me, it's been s long I don't remember who or why, was that  "If you hang around a barbershop long enough you'll end up getting a hair cut".

This is something I've found to be worthy advice, something I always try to keep in mind.

[Vine Abider]

27 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

The Lord does... it's an evil thing with many places in scripture saying it's evil.
 

What about Paul telling Timothy to have a little wine, or when Jesus drank wine?  I think the balanced word is: "Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."  (Eph 5:18)

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

14 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

What about Paul telling Timothy to have a little wine, or when Jesus drank wine?  I think the balanced word is: "Be not drunk with wine wherein is excess."  (Eph 5:18)

Yeah, a "little" wine as in fruit of the vine... this does not mean drinking alcohol and the context of what Paul is saying does not prove he is telling Timothy to drink fermented wine.

There are beneficial nutrients in grape juice (un-fermented) and well as in fermented grape juice (wine) that are good for one's digestive system.  They have a supplement one can take to get these nutrients without drinking booze called red wine grape seed extract (I take this myself frequently for nutritional purposes)

Many people get upset stomachs from drinking unclean water (which was prevalent back then) so Timothy apparently experienced this and drinking grape juice helped settled his stomach.

And of course the devil comes along and uses this to convince people it's OK to drink booze and get drunk (or course nobody admits to getting buzzed which is being drunk).

Many people claim they are not drunk unless they are slurring their speech or stumbling having a hard time walking.  They aren't fooling the Lord because He knows who's drunk and who isn't. 



 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Vine Abider]

4 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

Yeah, a "little" wine as in fruit of the vine... this does not mean drinking alcohol and the context of what Paul is saying does not prove he is telling Timothy to drink fermented wine.

There are beneficial nutrients in grape juice (un-fermented) and well as in fermented grape juice (wine) that are good for one's digestive system.  They have a supplement one can take to get these nutrients without drinking booze called red wine grape seed extract (I take this myself frequently for nutritional purposes)

Many people get upset stomachs from drinking unclean water (which was prevalent back then) so Timothy apparently experienced this and drinking grape juice helped settled his stomach.

And of course the devil comes along and uses this to convince people it's OK to drink booze and get drunk (or course nobody admits to getting buzzed which is being drunk).

Many people claim they are not drunk unless they are slurring their speech or stumbling having a hard time walking.  They aren't fooling the Lord because He knows who's drunk and who isn't. 



 

Nonetheless, the verse given stands.  No one in the bible is prohibiting anyone from having a drink.  To say that is the case, is to put a law or bondage on someone that isn't in scripture.  Of course, if people stretched what Paul said to mean they can get buzzed all the time, that's against what he was advocating.

And if a believer in Christ slips up and drinks too much, there's still no condemnation as per Romans 8:1.  (they just turn back to the Lord and ask for mercy and grace in time of need, and He - by His Spirit living in them - will help them not do it again)

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

29 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

And if a believer in Christ slips up and drinks too much, there's still no condemnation as per Romans 8:1.

That's not true...

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those walking after the flesh are under condemnation because the Lord has condemned sin in the flesh as noted in Romans 8:3

Only those In Christ walking after the Spirit are not under condemnation.

Believers are called to to pout OFF the old man (walking after the flesh) and to put ON the new man (walking after the Spirit):

Ephesians 4:17-24
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

But, feel free to argue in favor of being able to live in sin and still be in right standing with thew Lord.  I would expect no less from the OSAS camp.

Drinking booze is an evil thing with many places in scripture saying strong drink is evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.

2 Corinthians 6:17
come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

James 4:4
know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.



 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

38 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Nonetheless, the verse given stands.

You do understand that this was Paul telling Timothy to drink a "little" wine for his stomach's sake?  This is not the Lord speaking thru Paul telling the entire Body of Christ to drink some booze.

In other words, this is not a word from the Lord to the Body of Christ.

Although drunkenness is a serious sin, it is not the only reason to abstain from alcohol. There are some twenty reasons listed for abstaining from intoxicants in God's Word:
 
1. It slows the thinking process (Proverbs 31:4–5).
2. It makes one dizzy (Job 12:25).
3. It is associated with self-centeredness (Hab. 2:5).
4. It causes sickness (Jer. 25:27).
5. It causes forgetfulness (Prov. 31:6–7).
6. It produces delirious dreams (Prov. 23:33).
7. It results in sleepiness (Gen. 9:20–25).
8. It produces complacence and laziness (Zeph. 1:12).
9. It numbs one’s feelings (Prov 23:31–35).
10. It leads to poverty (Prov 21:17).
11. It leads to brokenness (Jer. 23:9).
12. It results in sadness and depression (Isa. 16:9–10).
13. It causes sorrow (Prov. 23:29–30).
14. It produces blackouts (Gen. 19:33–35).
15. It leads to immorality (Joel 3:3).
16. It encourages sexual perversion (Hab. 2:15).
17. It results in guilt (Isa. 24:20).
18. It causes injuries (Prov. 23:35).
19. It can result in insanity (Jer. 51:7).
20. It makes one vulnerable to his enemies (1 Sam. 13:28)”

Drinking booze is not only wrong according to the above mentioned scripture passages, alcohol has been proven to be damaging to the body by modern medical science so it's something that clearly defiles the body

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.










.

 

[Vine Abider]

29 minutes ago, Stan Murff said:

You do understand that this was Paul telling Timothy to drink a "little" wine for his stomach's sake?  This is not the Lord speaking thru Paul telling the entire Body of Christ to drink some booze.

Yes, understood. Only reiterating what Paul said - don't drink in excess. 

And you do know Jesus drank wine, right?

[Vine Abider]

2 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

That's not true... Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But, feel free to argue in favor of being able to live in sin and still be in right standing with thew Lord.  I would expect no less from the OSAS camp.

Drinking booze is an evil thing with many places in scripture saying strong drink is



 

Well, I've been duly strawman categorized once again! If I was to revile in return, I would say something like, "That's just what I would expect from the OSNRS* crowd," but I won't say that because you're my brother . . . 

I thought you might interpret Romans 8:1 that way . . . thinking believers can get out of Christ, because the reality is, "It's of God that you are in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor 1:30).  Don't see that in the word bro - a more complete view is that God put us in Christ, and that's where we remain. (by sight, we may appear to jump out of Christ, but God's word says we're in Him and He's in us, and we can walk either after the flesh or the spirit now)

BTW - Most modern translations don't include that 2nd part to Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh . . ." because it's not in the original. 

*Once Saved but Never Really Saved