No One Has Ascended Into Heaven But He Who Descended Out Of Heaven, The Son Of Man, Who Is In Heaven.

[Your closest friendnt]

10 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Yes, the resurrection of Jesus Christ who led captivity captive and all the old testament saints that were in the upper regions of hell (Abraham's bosom) temporarily until the new birth became available... when Jesus led them all to Heaven.

Until the forgiveness of sins in the blood of the Slain Lamb of God was shed. 

IN OTHER WORDS they needed to be justified by the shed blood of the Lamb of God.

(At first beginning with Abraham they were in obedience to the Covenant of Circumcision till the Law was given and then they were in obedience to the Sinai Covenant.) 

When the Sinai Covenant would be set aside, the Covenant of Circumcision will also be set aside at the time when the Sinai Covenant was ratified but the Circumcision was included in the Sinai Covenant for eligibility reasons only. 

The difference it can be seen that in the Covenant of Sinai anyone with the Circumcision if they did not keep the Law they were cut off from the people of God and they were cut off because of sins not forgiven in the Sinai Covenant. 

And this is because their sins in the Sinai Covenant were counted against them and they had to seek the forgiveness of their sins in the sacrifices done in the Temple to have their sins Atone by the blood of the sacrificial animals according to the book of Leviticus.  

It is a good study read very carefully and you will find out that their sins in the Covenant of Circumcision were not held against them. 

But also note that the Lord did not enter in the special relationship with them they had in the Sinai Covenant.

Exodus 6:2-3

2 God also said to Moses, “I am the Lord.  3. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself fully known to them. 

Note that in the Covenant of Circumcision they did not have the Priesthood.

Abraham lost no one in the Covenant of Circumcision. 

But he began loosing his children who were disobedience to the Sinai Covenant specifically those who committed unforgivable sins...sins that could not be Atone under the Law...

With the Sinai Covenant we begin to have the Lost children of Israel-Jacob.  

Abraham began to loose his chosen children with the Covenant of Sinai. 

Also note that in the Covenant of Circumcision they were not given the Sabath day which came with the Covenant of Sinai. 

For that reason Abraham did not loose any of his chosen children for not keeping the Sabath. 

 

10 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

You can read in the Book of Acts where all these folks coming up out of the grave with Jesus walked around on the earth for a while before going with Jesus to Heaven when He placed His shed Blood on the mercy seat.

Now, when a believer dies their body goes in to the ground but the person themselves go to be where Jesus is in Heaven.  Paul spoke about that saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Once thing for sure, there is no such thing as soul sleep even for those that are not saved.  For them to be absent from the body is to be present in hell.

 

[Revelation Man]

31 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Until the forgiveness of sins in the blood of the Slain Lamb of God was shed. 

IN OTHER WORDS they needed to be justified by the shed blood of the Lamb of God.

(At first beginning with Abraham they were in obedience to the Covenant of Circumcision till the Law was given and then they were in obedience to the Sinai Covenant.) 

Actually the law came 430 years after "THE PROMISE" as Gal 3:16-18 tells us the Promise justified Abraham, the circumcision was to show Abraham and his seed were "Separated or Called out" from all other men. Its semantics, but the point is Abraham never needed a law it was only added because Israel could n9t live by faith, they always turned to other gods. The the same reason we need no law now is why Israel would not have needed the law, if they could have lived by Faith, so the Law was added to point out their transgressions (lack of faith). 

So, I think the original covenant was the PROMISE, that is the whole point, all Israel had to do was trust in the promise and they would have never needed the law. Most people get ot backwards and think the Promise is the New Covenant, its not its the original covenant. 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Actually the law came 430 years after "THE PROMISE" as Gal 3:16-18 tells us the Promise justified Abraham, the circumcision was to show Abraham and his seed were "Separated or Called out" from all other men. Its semantics, but the point is Abraham never needed a law it was only added because Israel could n9t live by faith, they always turned to other gods. The the same reason we need no law now is why Israel would not have needed the law, if they could have lived by Faith, so the Law was added to point out their transgressions (lack of faith). 

So, I think the original covenant was the PROMISE, that is the whole point, all Israel had to do was trust in the promise and they would have never needed the law. Most people get ot backwards and think the Promise is the New Covenant, its not its the original covenant. 

Paul and the Bereans discussed similar matters without having the Epistles of Paul. The point is that we do not need the epistles of Paul to look in the history of Abraham and the Patriarchs and Israel...

We can do the same thing and leave Paul alone and not with disrespect but to do what Paul did studying the books of Genesis and the book of Exodus and Numbers. 

So please support your arguments from Genesis if it is something about Abraham..this way we look in the context as it is recorded in the book of Genesis and I say that because I have found errors in your posting and by looking in the book of Genesis you may come to the Knowledge of what is there and we can discuss the issues at hand from the book of Genesis.  

[DeighAnn]

12 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Yes, the resurrection of Jesus Christ who led captivity captive and all the old testament saints that were in the upper regions of hell (Abraham's bosom) temporarily until the new birth became available... when Jesus led them all to Heaven.

I slightly disagree.  Hell is the place of the dead.  Heaven is the place of the Living.  Hell is the place of torment, Heaven is the place of comfort. 

Abraham would have had to have been dead to be in hell.  He was ON THE OTHER SIDE, the side of the Living.  
 

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
 

Chose life or death, heaven or hell.  Ascend or descend. 


I agree, the 'captivity' would have had no more sin, so no longer a price to pay for sin, so no longer could be kept in bondage because of sin nor the grave/hell/death.  The GRAVES had to be opened.   The last day of the OLD Covenant had come.  The promises of a Saviour had to be fulfilled to those it was promised to.  They had to be given the same NEW Grace now given to the world.  They believed, repented and were set free.  And the words of God show that to be HIS TRUTH.  


 

[garee]

4 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I slightly disagree.  Hell is the place of the dead.  Heaven is the place of the Living.  Hell is the place of torment, Heaven is the place of comfort. 

Abraham would have had to have been dead to be in hell.  He was ON THE OTHER SIDE, the side of the Living.  
 

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
 

Chose life or death, heaven or hell.  Ascend or descend. 


I agree, the 'captivity' would have had no more sin, so no longer a price to pay for sin, so no longer could be kept in bondage because of sin nor the grave/hell/death.  The GRAVES had to be opened.   The last day of the OLD Covenant had come.  The promises of a Saviour had to be fulfilled to those it was promised to.  They had to be given the same NEW Grace now given to the world.  They believed, repented and were set free.  And the words of God show that to be HIS TRUTH.  


 

I would offer the subject matter of the parable "no man can serve two good teaching master" has been is the the subject matter of the last two chapters.  Man wisdom "mammon"  verses God's wisdom his living word signified as "Moses and the prophets" repeated three time  in that context. all thing written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

It is not after we take our last breath we desire some literal water and not the gospel .this  even y though the tongue has returned to the dust. .  it cry out /.It must be treated as a parable   no necromancy communing  with the dead relatives and heros .

We pray as communion the one manner our Holy Father in heaven . . . .  hallow be his name . .not 500,000 and beyond  thousand dead relatives .

Like that of Rachel who hid the idol image from  her father by which she communed  with the dead workers with familiar spirit gods . Claiming they are closer to God and fill in the void between the dead and living .

 

Hell sufferings unto death (not dead) is the daily  sufferings we experience living in the bodies of death. Our daily bread can lighten the sufferings of born again mankind. All look to the new in coruptible body  no one has received.

There is no need to image there will be sufferings after we take our last breath of oxygen .All die once and their corruptible bodies return to the dust .  I would think it would give us any relief in our sufferings by thinking  too will continue the same kind of sufferings separated from God    jesu know what it is like  when two suffered working as one  suffer unto death Not dead God does not take dead sacrifices 

[DeighAnn]

9 minutes ago, garee said:

I would offer the subject matter of the parable "no man can serve two good teaching master" has been is the the subject matter of the last two chapters.  Man wisdom "mammon"  verses God's wisdom his living word signified as "Moses and the prophets" repeated three time  in that context. all thing written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

It is not after we take our last breath we desire some literal water and not the gospel .this  even y though the tongue has returned to the dust. .  it cry out /.It must be treated as a parable   no necromancy communing  with the dead relatives and heros .

We pray as communion the one manner our Holy Father in heaven . . . .  hallow be his name . .not 500,000 and beyond  thousand dead relatives .

Like that of Rachel who hid the idol image from  her father by which she communed  with the dead workers with familiar spirit gods . Claiming they are closer to God and fill in the void between the dead and living .

 

Hell sufferings unto death (not dead) is the daily  sufferings we experience living in the bodies of death. Our daily bread can lighten the sufferings of born again mankind. All look to the new in coruptible body  no one has received.

There is no need to image there will be sufferings after we take our last breath of oxygen .All die once and their corruptible bodies return to the dust .  I would think it would give us any relief in our sufferings by thinking  too will continue the same kind of sufferings separated from God    jesu know what it is like  when two suffered working as one  suffer unto death Not dead God does not take dead sacrifices 

Life continuing on after I take my last breath in this body is just as REAL as this life.  I don't spiritualize away what I can take literal.  I believe GOD literally parted the sea, just like I believe Christ literally went to hell and literally ascended to heaven and literally came back and literally walked the earth until he literally rose again this time to A PLACE where God dwells along with the creatures, and the elders and the angels and He dwells in a temple and angels, ministers, souls go back and forth and Satan and angels are literally coming to the earth and there will literally be an image that will be set up that literally the whole world will worship and literally we will be seeing lying signs and wonders and literally Christ is returning and the KINGDOM of Heaven will offically be on earth for a literal 1000 years.....

Now I don't disagree there ARE ALSO spiritual messages to be had with all of those things that help us gain more understanding to GODS TRUTH and GODS TRUE NATURE.   But neither of them make the other any less REAL, at least no to me.  

I just want to be very clear on where I stand and what I believe, so although I do understand the points you are making, I think if you are going to make them you should not do so in such a manner as to call into question the truth of what is literally written.  EITHER GODS WORDS ARE PURE AND TRUE, or they are not.  I read and believe them as I believe them to be perfect as the Spirit leads what I see and what I don't when.  I have read passages a hundred times NEVER knowing that one day the Spirit would OPEN them up to me.  The simplest things I am sure everyone else got at the first read, I had no clue.  But once I got it it never leaves nor does anyone come up with Scripture that changes those things.  I KNOW they are not from MY THOUGHTS because my thoughts can and do get CHANGED.  

If it says something that is literal, I don't discard it in favor of a spiritual only meaning because that would make what was written UNTRUE and WOULD OPEN THE DOOR to everyone making the Bible say WHATEVER they wanted it to say.  At least that is how the words of God have been given to me by the word of God.   


I understand how evil spirits IMPERSONATE real people, but that doesn't mean real people are any less real when they go from this body to the next one.   Until the 2nd death, everyone is living and dying and ascending or descending all in Gods order for Gods purpose. 

Do you or have you ever believed as I do?    

 

[garee]

21 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I just want to be very clear on where I stand and what I believe, so although I do understand the points you are making, I think if you are going to make them you should not do so in such a manner as to call into question the truth of what is literally written.  EITHER GODS WORDS ARE PURE AND TRUE, or they are not.  I read and believe them as I believe them to be perfect as the Spirit leads what I see and what I don't when.  I have read passages a hundred times NEVER knowing that one day the Spirit would OPEN them up to me.  The simplest things I am sure everyone else got at the first read, I had no clue.  But once I got it it never leaves nor does anyone come up with Scripture that changes those things.  I KNOW they are not from MY THOUGHTS because my thoughts can and do get CHANGED.  

Yes either Gods word avording to his understanding of faith are true faith or not as no eternal faith that could please our Father .

According to the judgment of death "the letter of the law"  all are appointed once to die not twice .

Twice would be like Moses striking the Rock twice typifying him from not entering heaven as a parable to help us understand the letter of the law "death" will not be part of the new order."thou shalt not will not rise up"

And condemn though corruption/ dying ever again the old things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.no worshipping dead saints.necromancy we seek our living God for the dead 

The "death of death" associated with the living pangs of hell . God thoughts are not ours neither are his invisible spirit ways  ours we must compare the literal temporal  historical to the unseen eternal according to the prescription needed to rightly divide parables. no mixing no gospel (Hebrew 4:1-2) It would seem like some sayin I told you so you should of liteming  scaring them into believing the lie of breath of oxygen buried 6 feet under still can surfer other than the normal decomposition of the temporal sinful flesh 

Then 20/20 prescription needed to rightly divide the parables which without the Holy Spirit spoke not . don't leave earth without that valuable interpreting tool  write it on your forehead and new born agin heart 

2 Corinthians 4:18 King James Version While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Hebrews 4 King James Version Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith (the temporal with the eternal) in them that heard it.

Yoked with Christ we get a rest in our daily suffering.Give us this day moment by moment  the strengthening power of your will.

Look to the subject matter of the parable  no man can serve two good  teaching masters as one Lord Mankind resisting sola scriptura) the living abiding word of God. . . . the eternal spiritual understanding 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, garee said:

According to the judgment of death "the letter of the law"  all are appointed once to die not twice .

Absolutely as in ADAM all die, that would be the natural flesh body, the first death, not like the 2 which is of both body and soul

 

1 hour ago, garee said:

Twice would be like Moses striking the Rock twice typifying him from not entering heaven as a parable to help us understand the letter of the law "death" will not be part of the new order."thou shalt not will not rise up"

Yes, any one who does die twice or 2nd death is only by the Judgment of God

And once death goes into the LOF then comes the NHNE

 

1 hour ago, garee said:

And condemn though corruption/ dying ever again the old things will not be remembered or ever come to mind.no worshipping dead saints.necromancy we seek our living God for the dead 

hard to understand.  NHNE all tears wiped away, no more death no former things remembered...kinda like....In the beginning, isn't it.  No knowledge of former things, new bodies....nothing new under the sun, right? 

 

1 hour ago, garee said:

The "death of death" associated with the living pangs of hell . God thoughts are not ours neither are his invisible spirit ways  ours we must compare the literal temporal  historical to the unseen eternal according to the prescription needed to rightly divide parables. no mixing no gospel (Hebrew 4:1-2) It would seem like some sayin I told you so you should of liteming  scaring them into believing the lie of breath of oxygen buried 6 feet under still can surfer other than the normal decomposition of the temporal sinful flesh 

The natural body goes back to dust.  We are in spiritual bodies from that point on as we have moved on to the next realm, correct?  Surely God saying this natural body goes back to dust is exactly what He meant.   I know of no where that he says it is going to rise or be 'reconstituded' or 'dust upon dust reformed'  I think He makes it pretty clear that when our spirit leaves this body it is FOREVER with the BIRDS eating the flesh of all men from Kings on down to slaves when He returns, don't you? 
 

 

1 hour ago, garee said:

Yoked with Christ we get a rest in our daily suffering.Give us this day moment by moment  the strengthening power of your will.

Look to the subject matter of the parable  no man can serve two good  teaching masters as one Lord Mankind resisting sola scriptura) the living abiding word of God. . . . the eternal spiritual understanding 

I don't know what 'sola scriptura' means and up until today I don't think I had ever even seen the phrase before.  Please don't confuse me with someone who knows anything but the words of God because quite literally, that is all I know.
 

[garee]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, any one who does die twice or 2nd death is only by the Judgment of God

And once death goes into the LOF then comes the NHNE

Thanks 

Was the first death not sufficient enough to perform the letter of the law "thou shall not or in dying you will come to a end of the the breath of life". . that God breathed into dust  

The appointment is clearly die once. .  no retrial.. . double jeopardy. . The whole jury was hung by the letter and found guilty 

It seems you are disregarding the "letter death". . .  What is its  purpose other than death? 

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

The death of death and its daily sufferings of hell  both will be tossed into the judgment fire of God. The death of death and sufferings. 

It. Thous shall not or you will die and not go to purgatory or limbo and surfer with no end in sight .

The imaginary hell came about because of the corrupted unbelieving  Jew that passed that oral tradition down to Catholicism as a law of men .I heard it through the father grape vine .

They as false apostles, false prophets have a need to go beyond thier last breath called a Queen of heaven .it came about because of a women lib movement wanting a female deity  with full consent of thier hen pecked husbands 

They are taught the strange women as queen of heaven  revives them daily and she even visits the Protestants and  to strengthens them in thier agony according to  her (Catholic)  teaching. . . the strange woman .Not the bride of Christ . They receive the end of thier salvation from the first hearing of Faith .

No second trial for them they yoked with Christ do the mixing (Hebrew 4:1-2) 

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, garee said:

Was the first death not sufficient enough to perform the letter of the law "thou shall not or in dying you will come to a end of the the breath of life". . that God breathed into dust  

Yes, the first death did serve the letter of the law.  But we can't forget the promises made and why those under the law were saved after that death.  


Would you fall more under this catagory?  Or am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say?  
"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both." Acts 23:8 KJV


 

 

4 hours ago, garee said:

The appointment is clearly die once. .  no retrial.. . double jeopardy. . The whole jury was hung by the letter and found guilty 

And if there had been a law given THAT COULD GIVE LIFE, we would still be under the law, would we not?  

And yes, EVERYONE is to die the common death which is of the FLESH BODY but not the soul.  It is a change of spheres/realm, we merely go from the presently SEEN world into the presently UNSEEN world.  

This world/time/life is temporary, like a blade of grass.  BUT not one soul has been destroyed.  All souls go on living either in heaven with the God of the living or in hell as one of the dead in bondage to death. 


 

 

4 hours ago, garee said:

It seems you are disregarding the "letter death". . .  What is its  purpose other than death? 

I don't disregard the 'letter'.  It's purpose is to teach us RIGHT from WRONG.   It wasn't always written in our hearts, was it?  It was supposed to bring those who followed it to FAITH, as they did what was right they were blessed... 


"And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:53 KJV

Do you distinguish between the first and second death?  How could there be 2 if there is only one?  I think I have missed your point somewhere along the line. 

 

 

4 hours ago, garee said:

The death of death and its daily sufferings of hell  both will be tossed into the judgment fire of God. The death of death and sufferings. 

It. Thous shall not or you will die and not go to purgatory or limbo and surfer with no end in sight .

death doesn't die until the end of the GWTJ.  

That shall not or die came at the beginning of God giving His Laws to a people who said YES WE WILL.  AND THEY lived under his blessing and life was great.  THEN they thought they would do whatever and STILL live under those blessings.  Kinda like OSAS OF TODAY.  Well turns out GOD DOESN'T LIE, although He sure does suffer...

I believe when there is no soul and no body there is no end in sight because it has already come to an end.  You can't torment what isn't.  Just like the morning dew evaporates, so will the smoke of those who go into the lake of fire.  Some just don't seem to believe GOD is a CONSUMING fire, not a forever roasting one.