Having PROVED it is the dead and not the living who are raised at Christs return, what does that change?

[DeighAnn]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:23 AM, Keras said:

You miss the proper sequence of the end time events. You will find out how confused are as it all happens. 

I know the NHNE comes after the GWTJ.   I know the GWTJ comes after the short season Satan is released.  I know Satan is released at the end of 1000 years better know as the Lords Day.  I know the Lords Day begins when the BRIGHTNESS of CHRIST puts an end to the short season of Satan.  I know Satan comes right before the Lords Day.  


Let's see.

Jesus born died, and risen as Christ, sends the Holy Spirit
We have been living under grace while the white horse rider has been riding throughout time seeking to overcome and overcoming
There will be a war in heaven which will bring about
A season of woe to the earth 
There will be a multiheaded beast rise up,
there will be a deadly wound
There will be another beast rise up after
There will be an image set up
There will be TWO of Gods witnesses sent and then killed
Heaven will open, the world will see the two witness rise, in that hour
The LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS WILL COME AND DESTROY THE KINGDOM OF SATAN
The Lords Day will commence, the dead will rise, the alive and remaining changed, Satan bound in the pit
Satan will be loosed on last time
The armies that are against God will be called together
Fire from God will destroy them
The GWTJ will be set up
The dead will stand in judgment
Those who get their names in the book of life through their works will finally come TO LIFE ETERNAL
Those who don't will go into the lake of fire
Hell death and the sea will give up their dead to go into the lake of fire
Then will come the NHNE


AGAIN i ASK,


What did I miss?
 

[Keras]

The next Prophesied event that the world will experience will be the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17 Proved by how the first Five Seals were opened at Jesus’ Ascent to heaven. Revelation 6:1-11 All those things have happened, we have experienced wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty. Any more of those and humankind would have been wiped out.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, of cosmic and earthly events; graphically prophesied in the Bible over 100 times, will cause the earth to shudder and shake, and move out of her place....Isaiah 13:13, Isaiah 24:19-20, Revelation 6:14

It will be just a one Day event, as the Coronal Mass Ejection explosion of the suns surface, that the Lord will instigate, Isaiah 30:26a, Psalms 50:1-3, will quickly pass; travelling at 3.5 million mph. But the strike onto the earth of a multi billion ton mass, of superheated Hydrogen plasma, will literally cause all the prophesied effects of the virtual depopulation of all the Middle East region, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 66:17, and worldwide devastation.
It won't affect the daily rotation of the earth, ask any scientist to tell you how totally destructive a sudden change to the earths spin would be.

What it will do is speed up the earth’s orbit by pushing the earth as it moves now at 66,000 mph on its orbital track. Just imagine it; a mass approaching a fast moving object, some may initially hit direct, then the main mass; pressing on the trailing side. This will speed up our 365.24 day year to a 360 day year. Isaiah 13:13
Making the time periods as given by Daniel and Revelation fit exactly!

Regarding the darkness on that Day:  Amos 5:18-20, Joel 2:31,

The sun will be obscured by the approaching mass, then when it has passed, there will be smoke and ash clouds for possibly months.  Isaiah 60:2

 

The effects of the earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. plus the moon shining bright red and the earths atmosphere being pushed aside, are what a massive CME can and will cause.

Because this will be a seemingly natural disaster, those who disbelieve in God, will continue in their disbelief and when the Leader of the One World Govt demands worship of him, they will be happy to do so. Revelation 13:8

[DeighAnn]

25 minutes ago, Keras said:

The next Prophesied event that the world will experience will be the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:12-17 Proved by how the first Five Seals were opened at Jesus’ Ascent to heaven. Revelation 6:1-11 All those things have happened, we have experienced wars, famines, plagues and economic disasters aplenty. Any more of those and humankind would have been wiped out.
The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, of cosmic and earthly events; graphically prophesied in the Bible over 100 times, will cause the earth to shudder and shake, and move out of her place....Isaiah 13:13, Isaiah 24:19-20, Revelation 6:14

It will be just a one Day event, as the Coronal Mass Ejection explosion of the suns surface, that the Lord will instigate, Isaiah 30:26a, Psalms 50:1-3, will quickly pass; travelling at 3.5 million mph. But the strike onto the earth of a multi billion ton mass, of superheated Hydrogen plasma, will literally cause all the prophesied effects of the virtual depopulation of all the Middle East region, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 66:17, and worldwide devastation.
It won't affect the daily rotation of the earth, ask any scientist to tell you how totally destructive a sudden change to the earths spin would be.

What it will do is speed up the earth’s orbit by pushing the earth as it moves now at 66,000 mph on its orbital track. Just imagine it; a mass approaching a fast moving object, some may initially hit direct, then the main mass; pressing on the trailing side. This will speed up our 365.24 day year to a 360 day year. Isaiah 13:13
Making the time periods as given by Daniel and Revelation fit exactly!

Regarding the darkness on that Day:  Amos 5:18-20, Joel 2:31,

The sun will be obscured by the approaching mass, then when it has passed, there will be smoke and ash clouds for possibly months.  Isaiah 60:2

 

The effects of the earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. plus the moon shining bright red and the earths atmosphere being pushed aside, are what a massive CME can and will cause.

Because this will be a seemingly natural disaster, those who disbelieve in God, will continue in their disbelief and when the Leader of the One World Govt demands worship of him, they will be happy to do so. Revelation 13:8

Yeah, I'm a little bit more reserved.  I could see that on a much smaller scale since ONLY one head of the beast is wounded, not the whole thing.  I could see it knocking out communications and messing with the magnetic field, and throwing the world into chaos for a bit before the 2nd beast comes along and ALL IS MADE BETTER, aka "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" Revelation 13:4 KJV

along those lines anyway.  I believe the mountains are POWERS or kingdoms or nations and they are moved out of their places by Satan and his angels setting up shop, even though they willing give over their power, so a bit different there...

But, as you pointed out, I have no idea what is coming or order of events

so what could I possibly know 

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

I put forth in another thread why I believe this to be false, as the definition of "the dead" who are raised up at His return is MORTAL, NON-OPERATIONAL IN THE WAYS OF GOD, LIFELESS etc. and are referred to in a MASCULINE form where the 'church' is always written in the FEMININE and are operational in the ways of God and NEVER DIE.   

It seems the definition of the people who are raised, more the character and attributes, is as follows:

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Here the ones who are raised have come out from within GT and have washed their robes. I don't see non operational masculine, etc., etc.

Here scripture is even more specific:

 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

The only possible 'they' here are those who, "who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands."

And this 'they' "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." So it's not everyone from all time that comes to life and reigns with Jesus Christ for 1000 years. Like it or not. 

I think you are making the same assumption that many, many people make when it comes to the resurrection at the end:

"In the resurrection when Jesus arrives everyone must be, and in fact are, raised at that time." 

Scripture is clear that isn't the case. 

You know there are two resurrections. The second isn't only populated with those who died in the millennium, but populated by all those who were not raised because they did not come out from within GT, and were not beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, and who refused to worship the image and/or take the mark.

Do you think that because the rest of the dead are raised at the GWT they are all destined to the lake of fire? Is that the big motivator to misunderstand the scripture to resurrect everyone from all time when the gathering at Jesus return occurs? 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

Well, if it is just the spiritually dead that are raised at the end, that would mean

Why would the spiritually dead be raised when Jesus returns? No one I have ever listened to thinks or says that.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

They are raised up at the death of the flesh (1st death the one we are not to fear), rather than returning to be raised up from the grave.

I see no evidence of this idea in scripture. I'm not even sure what the idea is.

Where in scripture do we read anything akin to 'returning to be raised from the grave'??

 

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

12Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

There IS a resurrection of the dead as well as there will be A DIFFERENT KIND of resurrection when Christ returns, a resurrection FROM THE PLACE OF THE DEAD.  

 

Are you writing scripture now?

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

Christ was the FIRST

to be raised up from THE PLACE OF THE DEAD. 

HE descended into hell,

This is the Apostle's Creed, a blasphemous Catholic doctrine. Jesus' body was in the tomb. At the most Jesus preached to the angels that are now being held in the underworld, wherever and whatever that is, but wasn't raised from there. 

It's not like the Messiah was an equal partaker bound in darkness like the angels of old that rebelled. Jesus went there in spiritual form, as the Messiah, and preached, per 1 Peter 3:

"He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, 19in whome He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built."

This is a direct reference to:

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person"

And from Jude:

"And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling—these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. "

Jesus was made alive in the Spirit before going to visit the fallen ones and preach the Good News to them. [I assume, I don't what He said to them. Maybe, "I told you so."]

This isn't tantamount to a condemnation to the same hell as the fallen ones, but a mission in the Spirit as God to show the good news to every soul. 

So having said all that, where do these supposed 'never dies' go upon their 'death'? I see nothing in scripture as evidence to show where they dwell upon 'not death'.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

BY doing that FOR US, we are able to 'claim' the gift of Salvation in which WE in our spiritual body NEVER DESCEND but are raised up at the death of the flesh.  

 

I don't think this can be known. Maybe, but I doubt it. Why the fact of the 2nd resurrection then? Where are those souls that appear before the throne at the end of the Millennium, before they are resurrected to appear at the Judgment? 

As the sheep and goats judgement shows, some are invited in and some are not, at the great judgment of the GWT.

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

"The resurrection of the dead" we HOPE to attain is MUCH LIKE those who endure to the end of the age and are changed, 'the alive and remain', 

Not really scriptural though, is it?

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

EXCEPT in that we breathe our last breath and then rise, but they are changed before that last breath and rise. 

Again, rise to where? And whom exactly? It's not the same as Rev 7:9-14 and Rev 20:4-5. Not everyone is being raised at the time of Jesus return Per Rev 20:

At the same time these very specific people from all over the world are resurrected to live with Jesus:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Those who are not part of the above and who did not do what the above did either through weakness or inability as the conditions didn't exist for then to refuse the beast's authority are part of this:

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete.

Which means anyone who did not face the beast and kept their heads attached to their neck are not raised at all till the end of the millennium. And these would be all those who died outside the time of the beast's reign in the last 7 years, probably 3.5 years minimum.

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

If there wasn't a CHANGE made to the law of sin and death, if Christ didn't bring in the New Covenant, IF HE didn't become the Lamb of God, then there would be nor resurrection of the dead and CHRIST would not have risen..

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

And if Christ didn't rise, it would all be a lie and worth nothing
 

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

Christ rising up from the dead is the PROOF that the dead indeed do rise and ALSO that the death of the flesh isn't necessarily a FOREVER death but a death from this body and this realm only.  

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

If those who die in faith don't ALSO rise like Christ did, then FAITH and GRACE did them no good as they would go to the place of the dead to perish also.  In other words they wouldn't go to be with the GOD of the Living but with the king of the dead

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

What is the point of being SEPARATE/HOLY in this life if it doesn't extend BEYOND this realm and body.  What good does Grace and Faith and being SAVED do because we KNOW EVEN THE SPIRITUALLY DEAD will be rising when Christ returns

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But THEY SAW Christ risen from the dead, they SAW the graves opened, they SAW them that 'slept' UP AND ALIVE and in spiritual bodies.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Just like DEATH came upon the world when Adam fell, LIFE after that death came upon the world when THE LAMB of God was slain and the New Covenant was brought forth
 

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

ALL are going to be raised up from death at some point.  


23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I don't see any of the above truth square with your conclusions. How do you see it here but then believe as you do?

[Diaste]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, DeighAnn said:

the LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS and the army (all those who have FOLLOWED HIM) are returning

Incorrect. It's armies that follow Him. There is no proof it's a group of resurrected saints. In fact, scripture explicitly states He will fight 'for' them, not 'with' them; with many examples of this in the OT. 

The idea that 'holy ones' can only ever mean the 'church' and can not at any time mean another other group or individual is just nonsense.

"“I am Gabriel,” replied the angel. “I stand in the presence of God," You aren't standing in the presence of God unless you are 100% holy. Gabriel is a 'holy one'. That means other angels of God are also, like Michael. In reality here are thousands upon thousands of holy ones;

Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands. - Rev 5

There is already a holy army of millions of angels in heaven round about the throne. No need to force some idea of gathering up those who just died in a war to come back and start fighting the same war when scripture tells us the saints that are gathered at Jesus return are rescued from a hostage situation.

Who would think a hostage is rescued and then told. "Here's a gun, get up and let's go shoot up your kidnappers."

A rescued hostage is told, "Everything is alright. You're safe now. We're going to get you out of here. Just stay right there, I'll take protect you."

And in case you don't think that's the facts:

Harpazo:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 726: ἁρπάζω

 to seize, carry off by force:  John 10:12; to seize on, claim for oneself eagerly: to snatch out or away, proverbial, to rescue from the danger of destruction, Jude 1:23 (Amos 4:11; Zechariah 3:2); to seize and carry off speedily, John 6:15; Acts 23:10; used of divine power transferring a person marvelously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39; passive, Revelation 12:5; followed by ἕως with the genitive of place.

The gathering is to carry us away to safety, rescue us from destruction, not arm us to fight. If the gathering transports us out and away to another place, it's a contradiction to conclude we would go right back to that place to fight and face the destruction we were just saved out of.

 

 

 

[Shilohsfoal]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:29 PM, DeighAnn said:

I know the NHNE comes after the GWTJ.   I know the GWTJ comes after the short season Satan is released.  I know Satan is released at the end of 1000 years better know as the Lords Day.  I know the Lords Day begins when the BRIGHTNESS of CHRIST puts an end to the short season of Satan.  I know Satan comes right before the Lords Day.  


Let's see.

Jesus born died, and risen as Christ, sends the Holy Spirit
We have been living under grace while the white horse rider has been riding throughout time seeking to overcome and overcoming
There will be a war in heaven which will bring about
A season of woe to the earth 
There will be a multiheaded beast rise up,
there will be a deadly wound
There will be another beast rise up after
There will be an image set up
There will be TWO of Gods witnesses sent and then killed
Heaven will open, the world will see the two witness rise, in that hour
The LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS WILL COME AND DESTROY THE KINGDOM OF SATAN
The Lords Day will commence, the dead will rise, the alive and remaining changed, Satan bound in the pit
Satan will be loosed on last time
The armies that are against God will be called together
Fire from God will destroy them
The GWTJ will be set up
The dead will stand in judgment
Those who get their names in the book of life through their works will finally come TO LIFE ETERNAL
Those who don't will go into the lake of fire
Hell death and the sea will give up their dead to go into the lake of fire
Then will come the NHNE


AGAIN i ASK,


What did I miss?
 

Everything looks in order to me.But the mutiheaded beast has already appeared in the kingdom.The second beast has not arrived in Israel yet.

[DeighAnn]

We need to agree upon a foundation before we can agree upon anything else.  

So we need to know WHO IS WHERE on the Last Day

I PRAY TO GOD we agree that upon the earth there will be 2 GROUPS of people 

Those who have taken the mark of the beast 

Those who have overcome and endured to the end, 


As for UNDER THE EARTH I believe is ONE GROUP and that is THE DEAD WHO WERE BURIED, rather than raised.  NONE OF THEM RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION, NONE of them have ever been raised up.  

I don't believe there is ANY PART THAT ANYONE FROM HEAVEN IS COMING BACK TO GET TO BE RAISED AGAIN.

THE REASON WHY IS I BELIEVE WE ARE RAISED UP IN A SPIRITUAL BODY AT THE death of this one.  If you feel that is incorrect please give scripture SHOWING what happens to them and when.  Once we get all the 'dead' where the dead belong and all the living where the living belong we can go from there.  Until then one of us is playing chess and the other is playing checkers and we will never be able to reach an agreement.  I will answer questions just for later reference.  

OR NOT.  


"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12 KJV

Before Adam sinned, there was no 'day' in which he would die.  

When he did sin, he died 'in the day' he didn't make it to 1000 yrs.  

We all are born into bodies that PERISH.  First death is of first body.  

What happens after the first death? 

WE CONTINUE ON IN THE 2ND ONE.  

For proof, we are given Lazarus and the rich man.  Talking, seeing, tormented, comforted, recognizing each other.  EVERYONE IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODY.  The flesh and blood body going back to dust, never to rise again

We are given Moses and Elias at the mount of transfiguration recognizable, so in a body

The souls under the altar 'awarded' robes

The angel brethren of prophets with feet

Like the angels in heaven, neither taking nor giving in marriage

in bondage in hell

the captivity captive

the saints seen when the graves were opened

we will be like Him when we see him

the body sown not the body raised

a body not made with hands in the heaven

I go to prepare a place for you

you will follow Me after

I will come to you and bring you to the father

you know the way

judgment seat of Christ to receive of deeds done in the body

soldier of Christ

Jesus died and rose, even so them

will return with Him

coming with all the Holy Saints

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels," 2 Thessalonians 1:7 KJV

"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." 1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV

Jude 1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



That is why I believe at death

 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We either ascend to the GOD OF THE LIVING


They are buried and become a captive of DEATH AND HELL