A Concern for Applying the Bible to the Natural Sciences

[IgnatioDeLoyola]

3 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

The ultimate authority is not natural law but God's word

Hey RV - I think this is an illuminating explanation of how some Christians think about things, most especially some protestant evangelical / non-denominational Christians. @FJK's comments are just as illuminating.

It is also interesting to see that you seem to interpret disagreeing with this statement of authority as dancing to the "beat of the wrong music" - and potentially as evidence of people being from the enemy or non-Christian.

I agree of course that there are some "Churches" and "Christian" movements who wholly disregard the Bible, Christ's central message, and even the ideas of sin, salvation and redemption which are central and core to biblical teaching. Often you do find such sects distorting or deliberately ignoring biblical teaching and justifying this through sophistry.

(For example, I attend a regular gathering of friends in a Church (but unrelated to the Church) that proudly displays a Pride flag in the Church hall. I have to laugh - not even because of the LGBT+ association here - but because Pride itself is the original sin of Satan and Eve!)

However, I do not believe everyone who disagrees with the above statement is a false Christian.

In my Church, there are four sources of knowledge that the Church holds should be in alignment:

- Scriptural revelation: The Word of God as expressed in the Bible.

- Historical revelation: The traditions of the Church as practiced and documented by the apostolic fathers and early writings of the Church.

- General revelation: What we see and observe in creation, which may speak to the glory, intelligence or design of God, or to the events in the Bible, or to the truth of the fallenness of creation, effects of sin, etc.

- Special / Personal revelation: Visions, dreams, apparitions, etc. whether experienced personally or by saints, etc. which are documented in the life of the Church.

It is my view (and this is not to criticise evangelical / non-denom protestants, but rather to sympathise) that only looking at Scriptural revelation, and / or making everything subordinate to this, gives a partial and blinkered view of faith. 

While clearly special / personal revelation needs to be subordinate to the other three (after all, any madman can have a vision) we cannot so simply subordinate the others. General revelation is a fact shared by all of us and present at all times. Historical revelation is also a fact - as much as the bible is - and often supplements our Christian practice where the bible is silent or only partially revelatory.

Christians have good reason to try to harmonise these, and test our understanding against all of them. We don't necessarily need to accuse others when they try to harmonise these sources of knowledge about God.

[RV_Wizard]

3 hours ago, IgnatioDeLoyola said:

It is also interesting to see that you seem to interpret disagreeing with this statement of authority as dancing to the "beat of the wrong music" - and potentially as evidence of people being from the enemy or non-Christian.

I agree of course that there are some "Churches" and "Christian" movements who wholly disregard the Bible, Christ's central message, and even the ideas of sin, salvation and redemption which are central and core to biblical teaching. Often you do find such sects distorting or deliberately ignoring biblical teaching and justifying this through sophistry....

However, I do not believe everyone who disagrees with the above statement is a false Christian.

Nor do I, but keep in mind, the Bible warns us of false teachers and false prophets.  One such false prophet was, himself, a highwayman, thief, rapist and murderer.  He subordinated Jesus as a mere prophet and credited himself with the complete prophesy.  He was such a man of God that he married a six-year-old when he was 52, though he admittedly waited for her to turn nine before raping her.  (Yes, I said rape.  9-yaer-olds cannot consent.)

Another false teacher claims that Christ came to him in 1820 to give him the truth of God and to tell him all other religions were wrong.  These false teachers wrapped all their lies in just enough truth to convince multitudes.

So we ask ourselves; does the post glorify God or take away from Him.  Does it affirm the Scriptures or contradict them?  Is it consistent with the plain word of the Bible or do you have to take words and phrases out of context to support it?  That's my guidepost.

 

[IgnatioDeLoyola]

5 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

So we ask ourselves; does the post glorify God or take away from Him.  Does it affirm the Scriptures or contradict them?  Is it consistent with the plain word of the Bible or do you have to take words and phrases out of context to support it?  That's my guidepost.

That's a fair guidepost in many cases fella. But I think it will be hard for many to post (or ever debate) in a forum about Science and Faith and follow this rule. 

Jesus does indeed warn of false prophets. He tells us: "wherefore by their fruits shall ye know them." (Matt 7:20)

The fruits of Islam were immediately hostile, with war and lawlessness breaking out as soon as Muhammed died. We see how little respect women have in Muslim countries, and many other problems there directly connected to the religion of Islam. 

The fruits of the LDS church are, like many gnostic sects before them (and indeed Islam), adultery and fornication and racism etc. 

I'm not sure I would argue the fruits of those posting here are the same. For example, I believe the Earth is very old indeed (as does the OP), though I disagree with his analysis of scripture. As it happens I think it is mostly and probably from noble and good intentions that Christian's like him try to harmonise the bible and science. And I offer up that the main fruit of such debates is like to make Christianity and scripture seem less crazy to those outside of our community, and therefore something more people might wish to look into. 

This is not a catch all excuse for disparaging or dismissing scripture (and I don't think this was the OPs intention or tone). But it is a good reason to have healthy debate in trying to harmonise different forms of revelation. Better anyway than saying to unbelievers: "don't believe your lying eyes!" 

Have a lovely evening, 

N

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, IgnatioDeLoyola said:

I'm not sure I would argue the fruits of those posting here are the same. For example, I believe the Earth is very old indeed (as does the OP), though I disagree with his analysis of scripture. As it happens I think it is mostly and probably from noble and good intentions that Christian's like him try to harmonise the bible and science. And I offer up that the main fruit of such debates is like to make Christianity and scripture seem less crazy to those outside of our community, and therefore something more people might wish to look into. 

I point no fingers, but I do post a BEWARE sign and wave it proudly.  As I have mentioned, I was raised with the belief that the earth was old and Genesis dealt with the arrival of man.  As I read the Bible more, I realized this position was untenable with what is written.  I freely admit the ideas that are my own and hold truth to be in the written word of God.

I have seen people pretending to be Christians to come to these forums with the expressed desire of winning people to the notion of evolutions and long ages and for them to accept the Bible as the flawed writing of "Bronze age sheep herders" (a popular derision among them).  I've also seen these same people joking about the gullibility of Christians.  Look to the Bible for truth.  If you can cite a passage from the Bible taken in context to support what you claim, you have a valid point.  If you have to take a phrase out of context to support your opinion, you're probably wrong.

Though scientifically untenable, the theory of evolution will continue to be taught as established fact, leading ever more Christians away from the word of God.  It could get far worse before the Lord returns.  It's satanic in origin.  Put your faith in the word of God.  He came, was crucified for our sins, arose on the third day and will come again to take His people to Heaven with Him.  Let no teaching of man pull you from the truth of God's word. 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

 

The sun is 93 million miles away?

"I saw an angel, standing in the sun,
and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the birds
that fly in the midst of the sky...." Rev 19:17

'The heavens have become mans realm'
Nixon to the astronauts.

"No man has ascended up to heaven" John 3:13

 

 

 

 

[teddyv]

4 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

I have seen people pretending to be Christians to come to these forums with the expressed desire of winning people to the notion of evolutions and long ages and for them to accept the Bible as the flawed writing of "Bronze age sheep herders" (a popular derision among them).  I've also seen these same people joking about the gullibility of Christians.  Look to the Bible for truth. 

I would love to see some evidence of this claim. According to your join date, I've been here longer than you and I have not witnessed what you claim. There have been probably less than 10 members that have been actively engaged in this topic that subscribe to and old earth and/or evolutionary processes.

I can't say I've read every single post, of course, so maybe someone popped by and was banned quickly.

[RV_Wizard]

8 hours ago, teddyv said:

I would love to see some evidence of this claim. According to your join date, I've been here longer than you and I have not witnessed what you claim. There have been probably less than 10 members that have been actively engaged in this topic that subscribe to and old earth and/or evolutionary processes.

Notice the plural.  

This isn't my first forum.  I've been on several.  On one, members were told how to infiltrate Christian forums and say something to the effect of, "I used to be a Christian until I found out the Bible says..."

The world is filled with false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing.  The fastest way t fall into that category is to take the Bible out of context and claim that it says something it does not say.  That happens routinely here, and most likely, everywhere on the net.

[teddyv]

17 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Notice the plural.  

This isn't my first forum.  I've been on several.  On one, members were told how to infiltrate Christian forums and say something to the effect of, "I used to be a Christian until I found out the Bible says..."

The world is filled with false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing.  The fastest way t fall into that category is to take the Bible out of context and claim that it says something it does not say.  That happens routinely here, and most likely, everywhere on the net.

You wrote "these forums" which would include this one. But yeah, there are likely cases on other fora that allow a wider group of members. 

Of course there are false teachers. YEC has it's share, just as any other area.

[RV_Wizard]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:00 PM, teddyv said:

You wrote "these forums" which would include this one. But yeah, there are likely cases on other fora that allow a wider group of members. 

Of course there are false teachers. YEC has it's share, just as any other area.

I am in 100% agreement that there are false teachers in all things.  Some, maybe most have convinced themselves of what they say.  The easiest way to NOT fall into this trap is to never contradict the Scriptures.  If I say that the dead were resurrected many times and then cite the passages of the Bible to support it, I am not teaching falsely.  If I say there was NOT a global flood when the Bible assures that there was, (and every culture has its own flood story) then I am teaching falsely.  

One behavior frequently seen in the frauds is that they profess to be Christians, post only in evolution topics or in things challenging the Bible, then when their claims get shot down they go away.  Another famous deceit is the "former Christians."  You see them on the internet (ie Youtube) explaining why a closer reading of the Bible convinced them it was nothing but the writings of "bronze age shepherds."  The intent is the same; to lead Christians away from the Bible.  Some may actually think they are "enlightening" their poorly educated counterparts who haven't studied the latest theory of "molecules to man."

Evolution is taught in our schools and is considered the acceptable belief of the educated mind.  We are told that we live in a world governed by natural law, and that the supernatural is the wishful thinking of the weak minded.  This false teaching will continue to spread until only a few are left who believe the word of God.  We know this, because we are told that many will turn away from God before the return of Christ.  I will proclaim that put all my faith in God's word.  The physical laws of the creation bow to the will of the Creator.

[Starise]

On 10/3/2023 at 8:49 PM, RV_Wizard said:

Notice the plural.  

This isn't my first forum.  I've been on several.  On one, members were told how to infiltrate Christian forums and say something to the effect of, "I used to be a Christian until I found out the Bible says..."

The world is filled with false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing.  The fastest way t fall into that category is to take the Bible out of context and claim that it says something it does not say.  That happens routinely here, and most likely, everywhere on the net.

Can you tell me more specifics on where people were being taught these tactica? If it isn't suitable here, please send a PM when you get the chance.