Perfection Theology

[Vine Abider]

17 hours ago, jesusandliberty said:

Where can I find this referenced?

Here are four passages:

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Ezk 36:26

You are to be renewed in the spirit of your minds and that you put on the new man which was created according to God. Ephesians 4:23-24

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.  Rom 12:2

But whenever their heart turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all, with unveiled faces, looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.  2 Cor 3:16-18

[George]

Another question ... that may answer this question offered ...

1Co 3:9  For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building. 

1Co 3:10  According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 

1Co 3:11  For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 

1Co 3:12  Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 

1Co 3:13  each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 

1Co 3:14  If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 

1Co 3:15  If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

It appears that some will enter the Kingdom without any reward ... how could this be?

That, I believe, will answer the question you asked to begin with.

Again, John stated ...

 

1Jn 1:8  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 

1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

1Jn 1:10  If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 

So, while our goal is to be sanctified and live a pure and holy life, in my own experience, I've come to realize the closer to God I may feel, the world may see me as more holy and righteous, however, I feel more wretched and realize the awesome grace of God the closer I get to a Holy God.

I believe this is the exact same paradox that Paul experienced...

Rom 7:19  For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 

Rom 7:20  Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 

Rom 7:21  So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 

Rom 7:23  but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 

Rom 7:24  Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Praise God for His Atonement through His Son, freely available to all who may believe!  Amen!

Be blessed,

George

[Daniel Marsh]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:14 AM, jesusandliberty said:

I see a lot of steam picking up from Christians spouting perfection doctrine. They back it up with scripture by saying all the verses pertaining to us as sinners refer to us before becoming disciples of Jesus. Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? Is this theology sound? Why or why not?

1 John 1:8-10
Easy-to-Read Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching.

This was written to mature Christians.

[Daniel Marsh]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:25 AM, jesusandliberty said:

This verse in particular gets pointed as Paul is referring to unbelievers not believers. So the logic being this does not apply to Christians. 

Romans 3
Easy-to-Read Version
3 So, do Jews have anything that others don’t have? Do they get any benefit from being circumcised? 2 Yes, the Jews have many benefits. The most important one is this: God trusted the Jews with his teachings. 3 It is true that some Jews were not faithful to God. But will that stop God from doing what he promised? 4 No, even if everyone else is a liar, God will always do what he says. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say,
    and you will win when people accuse you.”

5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (That’s the way some people think.) 6 Of course not. If God could not punish us, how could he judge the world?

7 Someone might say, “When I lie, it really gives God glory, because my lie makes his truth easier to see. So why am I judged a sinner?” 8 It would be the same to say, “We should do evil so that good will come.” Many people criticize us, saying that’s what we teach. They are wrong, and they should be condemned for saying that.

All People Are Guilty
9 So are we Jews better than other people? No, we have already said that those who are Jews, as well as those who are not Jews, are the same. They are all guilty of sin. 10 As the Scriptures say,

“There is no one doing what is right,
    not even one.
11 There is no one who understands.
    There is no one who is trying to be with God.
12 They have all turned away from him,
    and now they are of no use to anyone.
There is no one who does good,
    not even one.”

13 “Their words come from mouths that are like open graves.
    They use their lying tongues to deceive others.”

“Their words are like the poison of snakes.”

14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and angry words.”

15 “They are always ready to kill someone.
16     Everywhere they go they cause trouble and ruin.
17 They don’t know how to live in peace.”

18 “They have no fear or respect for God.”

19 What the law says is for those who are under the law. It stops anyone from making excuses. And it brings the whole world under God’s judgment, 20 because no one can be made right with God by following the law. The law only shows us our sin.

How God Makes People Right
21 But God has a way to make people right, and it has nothing to do with the law. He has now shown us that new way, which the law and the prophets told us about. 22 God makes people right through their faith in[a] Jesus Christ. He does this for all who believe in Christ. Everyone is the same. 23 All have sinned and are not good enough to share God’s divine greatness. 24 They are made right with God by his grace. This is a free gift. They are made right with God by being made free from sin through Jesus Christ. 25-26 God gave Jesus as a way to forgive people’s sins through their faith in him. God can forgive them because the blood sacrifice of Jesus pays for their sins. God gave Jesus to show that he always does what is right and fair. He was right in the past when he was patient and did not punish people for their sins. And in our own time he still does what is right. God worked all this out in a way that allows him to judge people fairly and still make right any person who has faith in Jesus.

27 So do we have any reason to boast about ourselves? No reason at all. And why not? Because we are depending on the way of faith, not on what we have done in following the law. 28 I mean we are made right with God through faith, not through what we have done to follow the law. This is what we believe. 29 God is not only the God of the Jews. He is also the God of those who are not Jews. 30 There is only one God. He will make Jews right with him by their faith, and he will also make non-Jews[c] right with him through their faith. 31 So do we destroy the law by following the way of faith? Not at all! In fact, faith causes us to be what the law actually wants.

Footnotes
Romans 3:22 their faith in Or “the faithfulness of.”
Romans 3:30 Jews Literally, “circumcision.”
Romans 3:30 non-Jews Literally, “uncircumcision.”

[Daniel Marsh]

lost my place

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:23 PM, JimmyB said:

saying that "the devil is having a field day muddying the waters of what the Lord said as this is how he operates from the start as we see in the garden of eden... always claiming God didn't say what He actually said and/or God didn't mean what He actually said" has no basis.

Ha ha!  That's what the devil keeps telling people .... and he muddies the waters by changing God's Word.

This is what the devil did in the garden of eden... it's how he operates and he's been continually doing this with mankind every since then.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

17 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

1 John 1:8-10
Easy-to-Read Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching.

This was written to mature Christians.

Nobody is saying they have never ever sinned but the gnotics who believe they have never ever sinned.

But, once we become Christians, we are called to turn away from sin and quit doing sinful things... mature Christians have the power of the Holy Ghost inside which gives them self control!

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

5 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

Nobody is saying they have never ever sinned but the gnotics who believe they have never ever sinned.

But, once we become Christians, we are called to turn away from sin and quit doing sinful things... mature Christians have the power of the Holy Ghost inside which gives them self control!

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


 

 

Based on II Peter 1,  I agree we get self control.   If one sins once, it is not sinless perfection.  I also agree we are to walk in the Spirit Romans 8.

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Here's another scripture for that:

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.



 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Stan Murff

[farouk]

On 9/16/2023 at 7:14 AM, jesusandliberty said:

I see a lot of steam picking up from Christians spouting perfection doctrine. They back it up with scripture by saying all the verses pertaining to us as sinners refer to us before becoming disciples of Jesus. Can Christians attain 100% righteous perfection? Is this theology sound? Why or why not?

@jesusandliberty The believer's standing in Christ stems from faith in the justifying work of Christ at the Cross (Romans 5). It's not about supposedly "staying saved" if you supposedly try hard enough.