So, the biggest question on the rise from abortionists.

[JimmyB]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:22 PM, Dennis1209 said:

A little off-topic, sorry. There is a ton of secular vs. theological debate in this area. Many Christians agree life begins at the very moment of conception. I would link some videos showing our modern technology recording it, but…

There is a bright flash of light in the womb at the precise moment of conception. Science is unsure what it is or what causes it; some guess it is a chemical reaction. It is the spark of life, the instant we become a living soul, but a guess.

In this modern age, designer babies and artificial wombs are a reality. I will omit how that satisfies the desires of the alternative lifestyle crowd and others. How do things like this impact morals, values, and secular law?

What laws protect the unborn and their rights? Two standards in our statutes affect the human rights of those who cannot defend themselves. It boils down to the wanted and the unwanted—a woman's right to choose to carry an appendage (fetus) or not to term.

Considering the contradiction in law and values, just looking at this from an unborn child's perspective from the outside as an advocate.

Millions of babies are legally aborted for convenience, most paid for or subsidized at taxpayer expense. An expectant mother, by intent or accident by another, kills her fetus in the womb; it then is a homicide criminal and may be prosecuted.

It is too long to document or detail, but some of the best legal minds have met to hash out near future laws and rights to what constitutes a human being and variances. Yes, you heard it right. If anyone missed the memo, our government (and the world) are biologically tinkering with DNA to manufacture super soldiers. Our American government even announced it to keep up with the Joneses.

Some food for transhumanism thought for those interested:

Inside DARPA's Attempts to Engineer a Futuristic Super-Soldier - The Atlantic

DARPA Has Genetically Engineered Super Blood to Protect Soldiers From a Major Threat (mic.com)

I think these technologies developing have the mark of the Beast and boils written all over them. Militaries always get first use of technology to weaponize it before civilian use.

 

It is clear to me that you don't underst5and fertilization, pregnancy, what an embryo or a fetus is, etc.

An embryo cannot survive independently of the mother, period.  So it cannot be considered to be alive.

A fetus cannot survive independently of the mother (unless, in some cases, extraordinary measures are taken to try to insure its survival), so a fetus cannot considered to be alive.  

There are many occasions when a fetus must be aborted.  There are fetal anomalies that make survival impossible outside of the womb, for example, not having functioning lungs or having a malformed heart.  The only sensible thing to do in those cases is to abort the pregnancy!  It is nothing but propaganda, based on ignorance, to consider carrying such a fetus to term, unless you want to observe its suffering and dying an agonizing death.\

The whole debate about abortion is hyper-emotional.  Much of it is based on myths and lack of logic.  Abortion is a necessary medical procedure that should be decided upon by the woman, her physician, and her family, not by government fiat.

Why do you want to deny a woman her freedom?

[George]

Judges 13:5 King James Version (KJV) 

- Read this chapter

⁵ For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

Psalms 22:10 King James Version (KJV) 

- Read this chapter

¹⁰ I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

 

Isaiah 44:2 King James Version (KJV) 

- Read this chapter

² Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 49:1 King James Version (KJV) 

- Read this chapter

¹ Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

 

Jeremiah 1:5 King James Version (KJV) 

- Read this chapter

⁵ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

Earliest Church Fathers and the doctrine of the early church ...

Didache ... 

2:1 But the second commandment of the teaching is this.

2:2 Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born; thou shalt not covet the goods of thy neighbour;

2:3 thou shalt not commit perjury; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt not speak evil; thou shalt not bear malice;

2:4 thou shalt not be double-minded or double-tongued, for to be double tongued is the snare of death.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, JimmyB said:

It is clear to me that you don't underst5and fertilization, pregnancy, what an embryo or a fetus is, etc.

An embryo cannot survive independently of the mother, period.  So it cannot be considered to be alive.

A fetus cannot survive independently of the mother (unless, in some cases, extraordinary measures are taken to try to insure its survival), so a fetus cannot considered to be alive.  

There are many occasions when a fetus must be aborted.  There are fetal anomalies that make survival impossible outside of the womb, for example, not having functioning lungs or having a malformed heart.  The only sensible thing to do in those cases is to abort the pregnancy!  It is nothing but propaganda, based on ignorance, to consider carrying such a fetus to term, unless you want to observe its suffering and dying an agonizing death.\

The whole debate about abortion is hyper-emotional.  Much of it is based on myths and lack of logic.  Abortion is a necessary medical procedure that should be decided upon by the woman, her physician, and her family, not by government fiat.

Why do you want to deny a woman her freedom?

I am not going to dignify your post with a personal response. But here are a few more verses on what God says:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[JimmyB]

13 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I am not going to dignify your post with a personal response. But here are a few more verses on what God says:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Applying Proverbs 14:12 to abortion is meaningless.

Job 31:15 is also misapplied, unless you consider that God also made fetuses that had zero chance of surviving. (In context it is referring to slaves.)

Jeremiah 1:4-5 is about the prophet being chosen before he was born...

Now the word of the Lord came to me saying,

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

So God had a specific purpose for Jeremiah.  So what?  What is God's purpose for forming fetuses in the womb that cannot survive independently?

Taking verse from here and there, out of context, to prove a predetermined point is meaningless.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Here are a few things God also did...

He killed all the firstborn of Egypt, humans and animals.

He allowed Herod to kill all the boys two years of age and younger.

God also said this through Jeremiah: "Thus says the Lord: A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more."  Jeremiah 31:15, repeated in Matthew 2:18

And there are many instances in the Old Testament when God allows armies to slaughter men, women, and children.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

So the sovereign God allows many, many living children to be murdered on several occasions.

Therefore, your out-of-context verses prove nothing about God's attitude about performing abortions.

In reality, the US Constitution gives freedom to citizens, including the right to make medical decisions free of government interference.

 

 

[JimmyB]

"Christianity and abortion have a long and complex history. There is a general consensus that the texts of the Bible are "ambiguous" on the subject of abortion, neither containing explicit support or opposition, although there has been several passages interpreted that have been interpreted indicating both. Today, Christian denominations hold widely variant stances." From the article "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion" in Wikipedia (worth reading)\

"Christians have so far failed to show why abortion is an affront to Christian convictions. Rather than arguing when life begins, Christians must show that Christianity as a way of life which recognizes God as Lord of life makes abortion unthinkable." From the NIH

It would be helpful for anyone interested in the subject to be informed about the discussions about Christianity and abortions.

[angels4u]

On 9/17/2023 at 5:28 PM, Mozart's Starling said:

You're in a burning building and there is a single 5 year old child vs 10 embryos. Which do you save? You can only save one or the other. Now this is not a question that implicates the embryos are meaningless even if you would choose the child. If you were to pay me 20,000 million dollars to destroy a SINGLE embryo I would not do it. If I had a pregnant woman vs a man I'd save the woman every time. I am not asking this to poke a hole or anything. Abortion is evil and this in no way justifies it. I am 100% pro life and was glad Roe V Wade was taken down. I ask it in case this question is brought up to us in real life. Any thoughts? There's also things to consider like the child has a family will feel pain. I just want a single BAM answer to this scenario to shut it down before it catches on. Best to be prepared for all tricks of Satan imo.

Who would you save?

[Mozart's Starling]

4 hours ago, angels4u said:

Who would you save?

Well as others have said it depends on the details. If they weren't fertilized then save the 5 year old girl. Easy. If they were it gets trickier, I'd probably still save the girl because A) She can feel pain B) Has a family already who would suffer from the loss. That doesn't make the embryo's lives not worth anything though. Here's an example would you save your friend from death or a stranger? Most would probably choose their friend. However does that indicate the stranger's life is worth nothing? That they are not a person? Not at all. If it were a pregnant woman vs a man I'd save the woman because I believe that what is inside her is a life. Reality is I'd save both if I could but that's not an option in this scenario. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Mozart's Starling

[JimmyB]

Abortion is a valid medical procedure.  There are certain conditions in which the embryo or fetus cannot survive outside the womb.  An example of this is a fetus with defective lungs.  Another is defective kidneys. Another is a defective heart. 

It is senseless to endanger the life of the mother (who might have other children) because of some misapplied, false reasoning.  For those of you who oppose abortion, do you enjoy watching a newborn die?

[farouk]

On 9/23/2023 at 8:38 AM, Tristen said:

I don't think "wasting sperm" is a serious issue to God.

 

 

@Tristen I tend to agree; I'm not sure what the term really means in the bigger picture.

[WilliamL]

All these paradoxical questions arise because mankind rejected fellowship with God in favor of seeking their own way of life.

The only answer to the original question is: "What is the Holy Spirit directing you to do in the instance at hand."

NOT, what would YOU decide to do.