Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Well remarked! Let us take the example of the Talents.

The first thing we see is that the men are already SERVANTS. Israel are to be restored and blessed one day, but at the moment, in this age they are ENEMIES (Rom.11:28). The Gentiles are at best indifferent, and at worst enemies too. In Ephesians 4 the gifts of a resurrected Lord are given to those who are building up other Christians. So ...

Verse 14 says; "HIS OWN servants ... "

Verse 15 says that the Talent is God's "Goods" and is contrasted with human ability

Verse 18 say "HIS LORD'S money ..."

Verse 19 says "THE LORD OF THOSE servants .."

Verse 24 says that the servant called Him "LORD"

Verse 25 says that the Servant acknowledged that it was "THY Talent .. (God's)

Verse 30 says that even after his "wickedness" and his "sloth" he is STILL CALLED A "SERVANT"

It is clear that this was a servant of the Lord BEFORE and AFTER evil works. It is clear that he received GIFTS from God. It is clear that he was sent on a mission by God. The man was wicked and slothful, and he judged God as harsh and unfair - ALL WORKS. Based on these WORKS he is refused entry into the thousand year reign of Christ - yet without losing his status. PAIN ... Yes! Loss of servanthood ... NO!

There is one more defining event. The Lord stayed away a long time. In the case of the Virgins they fell asleep because the Lord "delayed". In Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 we are warned that we have to give account. And in 1st Corinthians 15:23 we are promised that we (who are His) are raised from the dead "when He comes". The fact that the slothful servant was judged with the other two means that he was still a Christian. If he was no longer a Christian, he would have belonged to "the REST of the DEAD" who are only resurrected 1,000 years later (Rev.20:1-5).

The bottom line is that you are saved, reborn and receive eternal life by FAITH. But to be allowed to enter the JOY of the Lord - His Kingdom - you must SERVE WELL, DILIGENTLY and IN THE RIGHT RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS

Thank you for your response, and I agree with the list of points you laid out there Adhoc. I think we can agree together in this thing.

If I would weave into the picture some of the things you listed, and touch on some other parts of scripture, which would you keep and/ or nix from it, and why.

For example if we look at this again,

Mat 24:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Similarly it says here,

1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Or rather, speaking of the divers of grace of God 

1Peter 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

In whichever gift  he divides (more or less) to every man according to "his several ability"  or severally as he wills, it's both a gift (the lords goods) and ability as it speaks of the ability God gives

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ

Then it says...

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Which agrees with 

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

As it says of stewards

1Cr 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Whereas He says. here

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

"Entering into" the joy of thy lord. 

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Being faithful in well doing, to get that " Well done, thou good and faithful servant"

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

You can add more in but then the picture gets a little lost, looking at the wicked and slothful it says here of the slothful

Prov 24:30-31 I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.

Here is where the thorn principal comes in and the sowing and reaping here...

Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Then the bankers as it pertains to "an account" (which would yeild a return to him)

Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

There is similiar wording in principal here

Phil 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

So what happens?

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

And yet you can sort of see this principal of grace play in...

2Cr 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Or as

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Wheras it says,

Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

And again this one hath nothing 

Prov 13:4 The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.

Now in Mat 18:23 again we have a King settling account, in that instance this one was forgiven a huge debt but held back

doing to others what his Lord did for him and in the end it was the (first forgiven) servant which "became" the wicked servant in the end.  And ocourse he was handed over to the tormentors and Jesus said, so likewise will your heavenly Father do unto you if from your hearts  you forgive not your brethren. 

And because fear hath torment, being handed over to the tormentors would definately impart a fear of the Lord to do what is right. And so to pay (in this case) all that is due there could indicate a little fear of the Lord and doing as his Lord has both done unto him to others. A picture of judgment without mercy who has shown no mercy. Thats a really great picture. I think bout them but laying them out as perfectly as I would like escapes me.

 

 

 

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Scripture teaches salvation by grace through faith, NOT OF WORKS.

Not by works alone.   Faith and works, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. 

Eph 2:8-9 says we are saved "through" faith - which simply means, without faith, there is no salvation.  It doesn't mean faith alone.

Eph 2 doesn't teach that works are irrelevant to salvation.  Verse 10 makes that clear:  "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

 

The NT teaches that salvation comes through faith, but that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and obedience.  Obedience is the test of our faith ... that's why James says "faith without works is dead".

Do you think God is going to reward believers who lead lives dominated by sin and evil with eternal life?

Jesus said "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matt 7:19) and told believers in Matt 7:23, "depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

 

Salvation by faith and obedience is taught throughout the NT - how could anyone miss it?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Buzzard3

[backontrack]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:10 PM, Susan Miller said:

Today one of my Christian friends told me that no matter what he does, Lord Jesus will forgive his sin, since he has accepted Lord Jesus as savior, and finally he shall enter into God's kingdom. 

But I remember that our Lord Jesus said: “Not everyone that said to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).We can see from this that entering the kingdom of heaven is not a simple matter, not as long as we believe in the Lord we can enter the kingdom of heaven, we must strive to pursue. What's your opinion, my friends？

John 3:16 yes

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

4 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

Not by works alone.   Faith and works, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. 

Eph 2:8-9 says we are saved "through" faith - which simply means, without faith, there is no salvation.  It doesn't mean faith alone.

Eph 2 doesn't teach that works are irrelevant to salvation.  Verse 10 makes that clear:  "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

The NT teaches that salvation comes through faith, but that we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and obedience.  Obedience is the test of our faith ... that's why James says "faith without works is dead".

Do you think God is going to reward believers who lead lives dominated by sin and evil with eternal life?

Jesus said "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matt 7:19) and told believers in Matt 7:23, "depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

Salvation by faith and obedience is taught throughout the NT - how could anyone miss it?

 

It does show by grace through faith we are saved

Ephes 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephes 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephes 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So we are created in Christ "unto" good works but not according to our works

2 Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,  which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

So to purify unto himself a people "zealous of" good works

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It's"by this faith" we have "access into" this grace

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand  and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

And its by this grace "accessed by faith" Paul  laboured more than them all

1 Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain;  but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

We have all been dealt a measure of faith, but theres this effectual working in the measure of it, and its by this faith we have "access into" this grace (this is the effectual working) or the I laboured more than they all, *yet* not I but the grace of God with me.

Its almost as if you could say, faith is not alone because of the effectual working of grace in that measure is accessed by the same.

[Buzzard3]

3 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

It does show by grace through faith we are saved

Ephes 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, we're saved "through" faith, which means that without faith, there's no grace and no salvation.  It doesn't mean we're saved by faith alone or that works (ie, obedience) are irrelevant to salvation. 

 

Quote

Ephes 2:9 

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

That verse means we're not saved by works alone - works alone is not the same as faith and works.  It doesn't mean we're saved by faith alone.

 

Quote

2:10 For 

we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.  So we are created in Christ "unto" good works but not according to our works

 

What does "unto" works mean?   

And why bother with "good works" if we're saved by faith alone?   If saved by faith alone, a believer can do no good works at all and still be saved.  

 

Quote

2 Ti 1:9 Who

 hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works

 

That verse means we're not saved by our works alone.  It's not referring to faith and works. 

 

Quote

So to purify unto himself a people "zealous of" good works.  Titus 2:14 Who 

gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

Where does it say we're saved by faith alone?   

And why be zealous of goods works if we're saved by faith alone?  If by faith alone, works (good and bad) become irrelevant.

 

Quote

It's"by this faith" we have "access 

into" this grace.  Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand  and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

Right ... we need faith to receive grace, but where does it say we are saved by faith alone?

 

Quote

And its by this grace "accessed by faith" Paul  laboured more than them all.  1 Cr 15:10 But 

by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain;  but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

So what?  Where does it say we're saved by faith alone?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Oh goodness

[Snow]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:10 PM, Susan Miller said:

Today one of my Christian friends told me that no matter what he does, Lord Jesus will forgive his sin, since he has accepted Lord Jesus as savior, and finally he shall enter into God's kingdom. 

But I remember that our Lord Jesus said: “Not everyone that said to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).We can see from this that entering the kingdom of heaven is not a simple matter, not as long as we believe in the Lord we can enter the kingdom of heaven, we must strive to pursue. What's your opinion, my friends？

Hi.. Yes i am sure

[Snow]

4 minutes ago, Snow said:

Hi.. Yes i am sure

Sorry more info :).. The enemy tries to complicate the sacrifice and the curse and separation of Jesus from God . he gets in our head.. Just accept the free gift and the agape love and if you truly have this born again experience then you will be with God for ever.. Dont let the enemy make you think otherwise ..think of others now .. JOY .. Jesus forst .. Others second.. Yourself last.. Live the life of victory..

[Buzzard3]

3 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

It does show by grace through faith we are saved

 If we're saved by faith alone, why does Paul warn believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11 that their sins can result in them not inheriting the kingdom of God?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Strawman free responses to the scriptures

Ephes 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephes 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephes 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So we are created in Christ "unto" good works but not according to our works

Amen to these scriptures

2 Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,  which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Amen to another scripture

So to purify unto himself a people "zealous of" good works

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Amen to another scripture

It's"by this faith" we have "access into" this grace

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand  and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Amen to another scripture

And its by this grace "accessed by faith" Paul  laboured more than them all

1 Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain;  but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Amen to another scripture