Location of New Jerusalem

[Revelation Man]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I will have to differ from Revelation Man. God has never withdrawn His plan for man to rule the earth. Psalm 8 is very specific what we will rule. Luke 19:17-19 is also very specific. You are responsible for a city or cities. The captain of a plane would go to jail for leaving his seat. A king must be present to rule. Jesus Himself, as King of the Jews, will live in Jerusalem.

Ill try to make my case, my friend, good sir AH. 

The Old Testament indeed points to the Kingdom Age where the Jews (with earthly bodies preserved via the Petra area) will serve on this earth with Jesus. That is what is pointed unto. however I didn't even see that in Psalm 8 but alas its everywhere in the old testament. So, saving time I will just move to Rev. 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them(Church that returns with Jesus in Rev. 19 which is Rev. 16:19 also), and judgment was given unto them:(Church will judge angels, here we judge the Martyrs only as seen Below) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(This is VERY SPECIFIC, it says that ONLY THEY who did not receive the Mark of the Beast...........Live and reign with Jesus for the 1000 years); and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, no one else is eligible, there will be millions who die in the tribulation as Martyrs, they will receive Glorious Bodies. God only needs a certain amount of former men, who now have glorious bodies like unto Angels to help Jesus on earth. After all Jesus is God, I think they mostly stay for symbolism, so the world can see those who the world killed now rule over them. I just do not see us as needed on earth, not over a billion people, who all now have glorious bodies.

Personally, I see the earth as also meaning the future heaven & earth where we will rule as kings & priests with Jesus for eternity. I could have missed something, but I see the specific quote in verse 4 as being a very pin pointed emphasis by God, as per the 1000 year reign, I see it as only the Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beast. because it says just that. This however is not going to change much like other issues. So, either way, we will be in God's divine will.

Food for thought.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Revelation Man

[Marilyn C]

1 minute ago, AdHoc said:

It's 2 a.m. where I am and I'm about to turn in. So I won't be there to contend with my esteemed sister @Marilyn C. But if you read Daniel Chapter 2 it says plainly that God's Kingdom will "fill the earth". It is a Kingdom that replaces Gentile rule of which Nebuchadnezzar was a human king of His City and the world. Verse 44 says;

 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The "people" of the Kingdom are were the destruction is - on earth.

Her argument that saints means angels is easily tested. Just insert "angels" every time you read "saints" and it will become evident how the Bible uses the word "saints". Then turn to Jude 14 and it is plain that Christians who were raptured will return with the Lord TO EARTH. The Lord, after His return to earth, will be seen covered in blood from a visit to Bozrah in Edom. Our Lord could kill from heaven, but to get soaked in blood He will have to be present climbing over bodies. See also Revelation 19:16.

A king who is absent is a king in exile.

Finally, the five foolish Virgins have to "buy from them that sell". The five wise Virgins bought oil before they fell asleep - that is, while they were alive. They were not in heaven. Thus, the wedding feast is on earth because the five foolish tried to get in after buying the required oil. In any case, the Wedding Feast of Matthew 22 and 25 is "LIKE" the Kingdom. And the Kingdom is on earth.

Hi Ad Hoc,

Sleep well. We do seem to have such different views. but no matter as we know the Holy Spirit is leading us into all truth so we can be rest assured that finally we will all know the full truth. Meanwhile we keep presenting what we do believe and as `iron sharpens iron,` we will learn from each other and others of course.

1. Dan. 2 is referring to the earthly part of God`s great kingdom for ISRAEL to rule.  God made the heavens also and there is rulership there too.

2.Now I DID NOT say that every time you see `saints` it means angels, only that a few times the Greek word is actually `holy ones,` which can be angels. (See Jude 14 & Zech. 14: 5) Jesus specifically said that the angels would come with Him at the end of the trib.

 `they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..`                             (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.`  (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

3. The wedding feast refers to God connecting again with ISRAEL. (Isa. 54: 5 & 6,  Hos. 3: 19 & 20 etc)

 

 

[angels4u]

@Revelation Man  is this how you see this prophecy could be fulfilled?

Three Categories of Saints

The word saints, is used throughout the Bible to refer to people that have accepted the rule of God in their lives, and is a common word for believers of all ages. There are three groups of saints, divided by when they lived. The first group are the Old Testament saints or godly ones who believe in God and who lived before the Day of Pentecost (Psalm 85:8).

Christ and the Penitent Sinners by Gerard Seghers Cir. 1640

The second are the Church age saints, also today called “born-again” believers and consists only of those saved people who live between the Day of Pentecost of Acts 2 and the Rapture of the Church from the earth (1 Corinthians 1:2). Saints who died before the Day of Pentecost and people who become saved after the Rapture of the Church are never part of the Church. Thus, the Church consists of a distinctive group of saints who live during one particular period of history—namely, those saints who are baptized with the Spirit and are “born again”. This causes some folks confusion and they tend to incorrectly apply the term “Church” to those saints who lived and died before the era of the Church (Acts 2 – The Rapture), or after the Church era (Post Rapture). 

The third category are the Great Tribulation saints (Revelation 13:7) who accept Christ during the seven year span of the Great Tribulation. Even though the word “saints” is used several times during the Great Tribulation, it does not refer to those who were believers in Christ before the Great Tribulation began. Within the Great Tribulation saints, there is the group that are killed before the 3.5 year mid-point and those that die after the mid-point. The saints during the 7 year Great Tribulation include the 144,000 saved Jewish evangelists and the myriad of others converted mostly through their efforts (Revelation 7:3-17). They will also be resurrected after the Great Tribulation and during that Seventy-five-day Interval that comes between the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

This distinction is brought out in Revelation chapter twenty:

 Revelation 20:4–6

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years (ASV, 1901).

Heavens opened – Artist Unknown

In verse 4, John describes who are to co-reign with the Lord Jesus in the Messianic Kingdom, and in this passage, they are the Church age saints and the Great Tribulation saints. 

The first group are those who have died during the Church age, and who in verse 4a are those to whom “judgment was given”. This is a direct reference to the Judgment Seat of Christ that they endured. This refers to the Church saints who were raptured at some time preceding the Great Tribulation. The Rapture will include only the Church saints and it will occur before the Great Tribulation. They are referred to as “kings and priests” in John’s introductory verse of Revelation 1:6 (KJV). The judgment that these saints have already had the apostle John is referring to is the Judgment Seat of the Messiah, also known as known as the Bema Seat judgment (I Corinthians 3:13; Romans 14:10). This judgement is an evaluation of how well, or how poorly, each believer exercised their spiritual gifts while still alive in their natural bodies. In fact, it is the outcome of this judgment that will determine the position of each Church saint in the Kingdom. 

The second group are the saints who accept Christ as their savior during the Great Tribulation. The first group in verse 4b are those who “had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus”are the believers who will be martyred during the first half of the Great Tribulation, and are mentioned at the time of the fifth seal opening (Revelation 6:9–11). The rest of the Great Tribulation saints are covered in verse 4c, and are those who “had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand”. Since the image of the beast, and the marking of worshippers of him with a mark on their forehead or arm are things initiated only at the middle of the Great Tribulation, this group of saints will be those martyred during the second half of the Great Tribulation. Both the Church saints and the Great Tribulation saints then will co- reign with the King for one thousand years. The Messianic Kingdom will cover the entire earth. But the land give to the Sons of Jacob will be what was promised to Abraham.

 

https://chart.bonlacfoods.com/detail/map-of-israel-promised-land-18.html

What happens to the Old Testament Saints?

After the second coming, we know Old Testament saints will be resurrected. This is stated by three Old Testament passages: 

Resurrection of the Flesh by Luca Signorelli Cir 1500

Isaiah 26:19

Your dead shall live; my dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast forth the dead (ASV, 1901

Daniel 12:2

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt (ASV, 1901).

Hosea 13:14

14I will ransom them from the power of Sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, where are thy plagues? O Sheol, where is thy destruction? repentance shall be hid from mine eyes (ASV, 1901).

With this resurrection, the unfulfilled covenantal promises will finally be fulfilled to them. One of these is the promise to become a “kingdom of priests”:

Exodus 19:5–6

5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: 6and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation (ASV, 1901).

In the Messianic Kingdom the nation of Israel will be ruled by the Old Testament saints in the implied role of kings:

Deuteronomy 28:1

1And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of Jehovah thy God, to observe to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that Jehovah thy God will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth (ASV, 1901).

Finally, there is one particular passage where the Lord Jesus is speaking to the Jews before the Church was founded. In parable form, Jesus tells them that they can expect to become “kings” and “priests” and “rulers” in the kingdom of Jesus Christ (Luke 19:11-27). This passage tells us how Jesus Christ will determine who rules over how many cities in His Kingdom. Though it is a parable, it is widely viewed as referring to the way we will be selected as rulers, or kings.

King David – Artist Unknown

The Organization of the Messianic Kingdom

Are all three groups of saints are going to be kings and priests in the Messianic Kingdom? The answer is yes, but in differing roles, and in different geographical places. Jesus, as the absolute ruler on earth, will govern the Messianic Kingdom. His throne will be in Jerusalem. The government will be split into two branches, a Jewish branch and a Gentile branch. It is quite clear from both Testaments that Jesus will sit upon David’s Throne in Jerusalem ruling the Jews and Gentiles. The Lord Jesus will be both King of Israel and the king of the world. Under His absolute authority He will rule with a “rod of iron.” The “rod of iron” that will characterize the rule of the government in the Kingdom will be implemented through various spheres and positions of authority.

The ruling hierarchy of the Gentile branch of government will be from Messiah, to the Church and the Great Tribulation saints, to the kings of the Gentile nations. The ruling hierarchy of the Jewish branch of government will be from the Messiah to David, to the Twelve Apostles, to the princes, to the judges and counselors, over all Israel. 

Messianic Kingdom Org Chart by Daniel E Woodhead

 

David described this arrangement in Psalm 72: 

Psalm 72

1Give the king thy judgments, O God, And thy righteousness unto the king’s son. 2He will judge thy people with righteousness, And thy poor with justice. 3The mountains shall bring peace to the people, And the hills, in righteousness. 4He will judge the poor of the people, He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor. 5They shall fear thee while the sun endureth, And so long as the moon, throughout all generations. 6He will come down like rain upon the mown grass, As showers that water the earth. 7In his days shall the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace, till the moon be no more. 8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, And from the River unto the ends of the earth. 9They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; And his enemies shall lick the dust. 10The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall render tribute: The kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him; All nations shall serve him. 12For he will deliver the needy when he crieth, And the poor, that hath no helper. 13He will have pity on the poor and needy, And the souls of the needy he will save. 14He will redeem their soul from oppression and violence; And precious will their blood be in his sight: 15And they shall live; and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: And men shall pray for him continually; They shall bless him all the day long. 16There shall be abundance of grain in the earth upon the top of the mountains; The fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: And they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. 17His name shall endure for ever; His name shall be continued as long as the sun: And men shall be blessed in him; All nations shall call him happy. 18Blessed be Jehovah God, the God of Israel, Who only doeth wondrous things: 19And blessed be his glorious name for ever; And let the whole earth be filled with his glory. Amen, and Amen. 20The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended (ASV, 1901).

As we can see, in Psalm 72, the different Gentile nations will have “kings” over them. These kings will have their natural bodies, while the saints who will be over them will have their spiritual, resurrected, and glorified bodies. The individual kings will be the supreme rulers over their own nations, but they themselves will be under the authority of the Church and Great Tribulation saints who will be essentially kings over the lesser kings.

In conclusion, saints in all three of the categories of the Old Testament, the Church, and the Great Tribulation will all in some manner be “priests” and “kings” in the Messianic Kingdom.

One Point of Confusion

One point of the confusion is the misapplication of the term “church” by Covenant Theology, which has called Israel of the Old Testament the “church of the Old Testament”. This is simply not true. In contrast with the Covenant Theology view of the nature of the Church, Dispensational Theology asserts that the Church consists only of those saved people, both Gentile and Jew, who lived between the Day of Pentecost of Acts 2 and the Rapture of the Church from the earth. Saints who died before the Day of Pentecost and people who become saved after the Rapture of the Church are never part of the Church. Thus, the Church consists of a distinctive group of saints who live during one particular period of history—namely, those saints who are baptized with the Spirit.

It is essential to note that the Dispensational Theology view of the nature of the Church also leads logically to several conclusions. Israel and the Church are not the same because there is something distinctive about the relationship of the Holy Spirit to saints between the Day of Pentecost and the Rapture of the Church.  There are distinctions between groups of saints throughout history, (Old Testament saints, Church saints, Great Tribulation saints). The fact that saints will be on earth during the Great Tribulation period does not require the Church to be on earth during the Great Tribulation, and there will be more than one resurrection of dead saints at different times of history, not just one general resurrection of saints.

Daniel E. Woodheadhttp://www.doctorwoodhead.com/category/messianic-kingdom/

[Marilyn C]

[Vine Abider]

 

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

 I wonder what other people think about this? I thought the Bible tells us that we will rule and reign with Christ?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I will have to differ from Revelation Man. God has never withdrawn His plan for man to rule the earth. Psalm 8 is very specific what we will rule. Luke 19:17-19 is also very specific. You are responsible for a city or cities. The captain of a plane would go to jail for leaving his seat. A king must be present to rule. Jesus Himself, as King of the Jews, will live in Jerusalem.

And isn't that what @AdHoc and @Revelation Man are saying too?  I've read through the posts a couple times and I'm not seeing exactly where the difference in thinking is.  (and I don't have a sleepy head as an excuse - just a little dense sometimes . . .)  Can someone explain the differences in viewpoints here?

Thx

[angels4u]

25 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Ill try to make my case, my friend, good sir AH. 

The Old Testament indeed points to the Kingdom Age where the Jews (with earthly bodies preserved via the Petra area) will serve on this earth with Jesus. That is what is pointed unto. however I didn't even see that in Psalm 8 but alas its everywhere in the old testament. So, saving time I will just move to Rev. 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them(Church that returns with Jesus in Rev. 19 which is Rev. 16:19 also), and judgment was given unto them:(Church will judge angels, here we judge the Martyrs only as seen Below) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(This is VERY SPECIFIC, it says that ONLY THEY who did not receive the Mark of the Beast...........Live and reign with Jesus for the 1000 years); and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, no one else is eligible, there will be millions who die in the tribulation as Martyrs, they will receive Glorious Bodies. God only needs a certain amount of former men, who now have glorious bodies like unto Angels to help Jesus on earth. After all Jesus is God, I think they mostly stay for symbolism, so the world can see those who the world killed now rule over them. I just do not see us as needed on earth, not over a billion people, who all now have glorious bodies.

Personally, I see the earth as also meaning the future heaven & earth where we will rule as kings & priests with Jesus for eternity. I could have missed something, but I see the specific quote in verse 4 as being a very pin pointed emphasis by God, as per the 1000 year reign, I see it as only the Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beast. because it says just that. This however is not going to change much like other issues. So, either way, we will be in God's divine will.

Food for thought.

 

6 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

 

And isn't that what @AdHoc and @Revelation Man are saying too?  I've read through the posts a couple times and I'm not seeing exactly where the difference in thinking is.  (and I don't have a sleepy head as an excuse - just a little dense sometimes . . .)  Can someone explain the differences in viewpoints here?

Thx

What do you think about it?

[Vine Abider]

6 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 

What do you think about it?

All I'm seeing is that each of you agrees that man will rule with Christ on the earth, and that's what I see as well. I just couldn't discern where any of you were actually differing regarding that basic premise, and was asking for someone to clarify.

[Marilyn C]

37 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them(Church that returns with Jesus in Rev. 19 which is Rev. 16:19 also),

Hi Rev. Man,

Just a point here, Jesus says it is the angels that come with Him after the trib.

JESUS AND HIS HOLY ANGELS.

So who comes with Jesus when He returns in great power and great glory?

When Jesus was on earth the disciples asked Him to tell them about what would happen to Israel & the nations at the end of this age. Jesus told them quite clearly about the tribulation & persecution Israel would endure but that He would come again with His mighty angels to deliver Israel & judge the nations of the world.  

 

 `they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..`                             (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.`  (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

These Holy angels are the army who come with Jesus when he brings vengeance upon the ungodly.

`Then I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse. And He who sat on him was called faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war....And the armies in heaven clothed in fine white linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.` (Rev. 19: 11 & 14)

This is also the description on the angels coming out of the temple in heaven. They symbolically had garments of linen, white and clean. This is to distinguish them as holy angels and not demonic angels.

White horses - represent glory and power.

 

The Bible refers to angels and saints as Holy Ones. We need to check scriptures as to which is spoken of. 

Translation Errors of `Holy Ones.`

Jude 14,  Deut. 33: 2,  Zech. 14: 4.

 

[bornagain2011]

Quote

We are told Earth will be our eternal home. Will we require oxygen to live? If there is a vacuum in space, are we restricted to the planet's surface? We will still eat and enjoy it; the angels eat the food of angels, manna. Will it still be for nourishing our bodies or for pleasure, appreciation, and life? I have more questions than Carter had liver pills.

I think about these things a lot too Dennis, I always wonder what things will be like, what will our bodies be like? Will we feel pain? Eat for our health? I believe we will have work to do, what will the currency system be like? So many questions!

[Revelation Man]

On 10/6/2023 at 7:44 PM, angels4u said:

is this how you see this prophecy could be fulfilled?

Three Categories of Saints

Whole lot of snuff to chew on there. Sorry about not answering sooner but had to go change my bed ridden mom, then my kitties had messed up a few things, I have 4 little darlings about 7 weeks old. 

P.S. I am going to freak you out a wee bit here probably, but just think it through. Not on all things but a few things that have been pillars of truths which are just not factual. Things I also believed for 30 plus years, and I can pretty much show why we went down wrong roads on these things.

On 10/6/2023 at 7:44 PM, angels4u said:

The word saints, is used throughout the Bible to refer to people that have accepted the rule of God in their lives, and is a common word for believers of all ages. There are three groups of saints, divided by when they lived. The first group are the Old Testament saints or godly ones who believe in God and who lived before the Day of Pentecost (Psalm 85:8).

Mostly, the Saints as used by the Prophets and John referred unto the nation of Israel, even in a generic term when not speaking about those saved it seems, but for sure those Jews who are seen as Faithful unto God, and we see this in Rev. 17 where God had John wrote this.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken(Harlot/ALL False Religion of All Time) with the blood of the saints, AND with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

John makes sure to let us know this Harlot (False Religion) was on both sides of the cross, she killed the [Jewish/Israeli] Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus, both Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ. 

So, I see the Saints, when used by the Prophets/Disciples as meaning Israel's Faithful for sure, and generically all Jews in general. We have seen ourselves (Church) as Saints, and that's OK by me, but I think the Prophets usually referred to the Saints as Israel. 

On 10/6/2023 at 7:44 PM, angels4u said:

The third category are the Great Tribulation saints (Revelation 13:7) who accept Christ during the seven year span of the Great Tribulation. Even though the word “saints” is used several times during the Great Tribulation, it does not refer to those who were believers in Christ before the Great Tribulation began.

I think this mostly refers to Israeli Saints or the 2/3 who never repented and die as Zech. 13:8-9 says, 1/3 will repent and call God God and he will bring them through the fire, and 2/3 will refuse to repent and be killed. So, since the 1//3 is The Woman (Rev. 12) who flee Judea unto the Petra/Bozrah area where God protects them, then they can not be the "Saints" (Jews) who the Anti-Christ overcomes, it can only be the 2/3 who refuse to repent, thus the word Saint there has to be used for Jews in general. The Gentiles who are killed are Martyrs, we will not be protected if we miss the pre trib Rapture. The Martyrs can't be the Jews who did not repent because they have not the testimony of Jesus as Rev. 12:17 says must be the case in order to be a Martyr of Jesus.

Here is one of the freaky WOW points, the Remnant in Rev. 12:17 CAN NOT be Jewish, it can only be the Remnant [Gentile] Church, and I can prove it, which also proves the pre trib rapture. Watch this, it is so cool !! Chills when we finally see it, it least it was for me.

Rev. 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth(angry he could not get at Israel) with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant(Small part) of her seed(Jesus/Gal 3:16), which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

See it? 

So, Satan tries to kill the Woman (Israel who repents) but God protects her in the Wilderness (Petra/Bozrah) and like in Egypt the earth PROTECTED Israel, remember the Wall of Fire and the Sea parted !! So, God uses the earth to protect Israel from the Anti-Christ Army (flood).

Thus Satan now goes after the REMNANT (Small part left behind on earth) of her (Israel's) SEED (Jesus is that ONE SEED, Gal. 3:16 says not of many seeds but of ONE SEED, and that seed is Christ Jesus). So, all we have to do is think it through, who is the only entity that can be that Remnant? The Church on earth, whilst "The Church" is in heaven marrying the Lamb Jesus. It can not be the 1/3 Jews who repent, Satan can not get at the Woman and turns to go after the Remnant of Jesus her seed. It can not be the 2/3 of the Jews who do not Repent, because they do not have the TESTIMONY of Jesus, nor do they keep the Commandments of God, nor can 2/3 be a Remnant anyway. SEE IT NOW?

Only the Gentile Church can be the Remnant of Israel's SEED (Jesus). The Gentiles who repent during the 70th week are not protected like the Woman, but why? Because we had 2000 years to come unto Christ, Israel as a nation was blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles (Rapture) came in. So, those who missed the wedding call must lay down their lives and in many cases a lot will die via God's Wrath, 1/3 of the world will burn, just like with tornados and hurricanes today, Christians will die. But Israel has to be protected so God can keep His promises to Abraham of a Kingdom Age where Israel rules with the Messiah for 1000 years.

I see the Jewish Saints being raised and they are a part of the Kingdom Age, Daniel is told he will stand in his lot at the very end. I think the Bride of Christ will return unto heaven to help build the New Jerusalem, after we return with Jesus, and Rev. 19 clearly says the Bride is those in FINE WHITE LINEN, then the Army who returns with Jesus are in fine white linen, so it meshes, the Bride is also the Army seen returning with Jesus in Rev. 19. Then the Tribulation Martyrs will rule with Christ, the tribulation Saints who die (Jewish "Saints") were not of Christ, they will IMHO, be raised at the 2nd Resurrection, judged and condemned , the Saints who repented and fled unto Judea = The Woman. Satan and the Anti-Christ will conquer "The Saints" but its referring to Israel in general. He will not be able to get at the Jewish Saints who repent and flee unto the Petra/Bozrah area where God will protect them for 42 months.

On 10/6/2023 at 7:44 PM, angels4u said:

The saints during the 7 year Great Tribulation include the 144,000 saved Jewish evangelists and the myriad of others converted mostly through their efforts (Revelation 7:3-17). They will also be resurrected after the Great Tribulation and during that Seventy-five-day Interval that comes between the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

INCOMING SHOCKER.............Smile. 

The 144,000 are the same people as "The Woman" in Rev. 12, read my thread on the book of Revelation, I explain all of this via the bible and in modern every day lingo also. But why?

There is no such thing as 144,000 super preachers its a myth never once even suggested in scriptures anywhere. We see them as Sealed and do not realize we are also Sealed by the Holy Spirit. God ordered the Four Winds (Judgment) to be held up and says HURT NOT, to Earth, Sea nor Trees until the "144,000" have been Sealed or saved. Well, God was not going to give Satan his real numbers, He says he has saved unto Himself 7000 men in Isaiah, God also says these 144,000 will be saved/sealed and He says in Zech. 13:8-9 that 1/3 will be saved or repent. The first two are CODES, whenever we see "perfect numbers" a red flag should go up to que us in. God uses numbers to inform us in general without pre telling Satan His plans. We know 7 = Divine Completion, 10 = Completion and 12 = Fulness so when we see 7000 we should understand that is 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 or Divine Completion  [times] x Completion. When we see 144,000 we should understand that is 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 or Fulness [times] x Completeness. Or in both cases ALL Israel who repents, not every Jew, but as a Nation Israel is preserved or saved. 

So, what God is showing us here is the Woman (144,000) or Israel who repents and flees Judea JUST BEFORE God's Wrath falls in Rev. 8, the Seals merely unlock the Scroll of God's Wrath. The Seals are not Judgments, but instead are Prophetic in nature, thus just as Joel 2:31 foretells of the Asteroid Impact (DOTL) so to does Seal #6. Seals 1-5 foretells of 5 things the Anti-Christ will bring to pass when God allows him to go forth. God's Wrath and the Beasts reign parallel over the same 42 month period. 

Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are the Church Age Bride, now in heaven via the Rapture. We came out of great tribulation, not the greatest ever troubles. In the 5th Seal (which is prophetic in nature or Jesus knowing the Future) Jesus tells those Martyrs they MUST WAIT until ALL of their brothers have been killed in like manner as them, so they can not get Raptured during the 70th week, besides, Rev. 20:4 proves the Martyrs of the 70th week only get judged AFTER Jesus' 2nd coming. Those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only be the Pre Trib Church, who are in heaven as the Bride of Christ as seen in Rev. 7:9-17, Rev. 19:8, Rev. 4:4 Rev. 5:9-10. 

On 10/6/2023 at 7:44 PM, angels4u said:

The second group are the saints who accept Christ as their savior during the Great Tribulation. The first group in verse 4b are those who “had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus”are the believers who will be martyred during the first half of the Great Tribulation, and are mentioned at the time of the fifth seal opening (Revelation 6:9–11).

The first half of the 70th week is peace, so no deaths per se. The Seals are Jesus opening a Scroll, nothing more, and Prophesying what will soon come once the 7th Seal is taken off or loosed, that is why Seal #7 SKIPS from Ch. 6, OVER Revelation chapter 7 where the Jews Flee Judea, to chapter 8 whare God's Wrath hits, AFTER the Jews are protected in Revelation 7. Most people everyone conflates these TIMELINES to be honest.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Revelation Man