The trinity

[ZippZapp12]

Hey,

I would like someone to explain how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit work together? Do the Son and Holy Spirit ever get to choose to do anything out of their own will or do they always submit to the Fathers will? How does the whole process work?

 

In John 15:16 Jesus says I chose you, but in every other verse he says he does not do anything but the Fathers will.

In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, it is said that the Holy Spirit decides who he will give spiritual gifts too. Does this mean that the Holy Spirit can do as he want?

Thanks

[George]

Shalom ZippZapp12,

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[other one]

I'll post on this when the ball game is over.

[ZippZapp12]

2 hours ago, other one said:

I'll post on this when the ball game is over.

Sure

[other one]

First off, we should figure out who/what the Father, Son and Spirit is.  I did the reading/listening for my own self to make up my mind about the trinity.   The church I grew up in to age 18 did not teach this and it was very disturbing when I discovered the difference.

Here is a general overview of the research I once did by reading or listening to the entire Bible twice while driving at my job.

Quote

 

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.

The word used that is translated god from Hebrew and Greek would not mean the same to a person in Jesus time as we in the western world do today.  It is used to represent something that receives worship and has some controlling ability over the lives of those who worship it.

To some people their god is one of the pagan entities.  Some is nature and nature things.   To some it is a statue which is a representation of demons or fallen angels, to some it is money and to some of the people I know personally it is themselves.  They are their own god.

It should be remembered that there are no caps in Hebrew and it is my understanding that the original Greek was written in all caps so in reality there is no difference in "God" and god.   The "g" is capitalized by the translators when used to refer to any of the trinity.

For us it is the three entities that are so closely tied together they are one.  It's really not complicated or some miracle.   What makes it hard to define is our misrepresentation of that word 'god'.  It's not really a mystery, but a misunderstanding of that word.

 

[other one]

Once we get past that and understand that Jesus existed in the form of God before he lowered himself to be a man, we can understand more how they work

According to scripture, all things come from the Father.....   but all things came through Jesus when he existed as Yahweh.   As far as mankind knew he was our Lord God.  But he was not the Father.  He was on equal status as the Father but he was not over him.

When he set aside that status and became a mortal human, he relinquished the power he had and only did what the Father showed him to do.

After his death and resurrection, he made it possible through his righteousness for us to be a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit which was sent by the father to be an interface between us as born again believers and Jesus and the Father.  The Holy Spirit will only pass on what he is told as I understand it.   When we pray or need something it is the Holy Spirit that carries those prayers and needs and He instructs us in the things we need to know and understand

As it stands Jesus and the Father are on equal status, but he is not over the Father and this will remain until all the Godhead's enemies have been put away so to speak, then Jesus in his resurrected glorified status will willingly subject himself to the Father so things can  be as they should be.

I would ask, to be sure, if you accept the trinity as reality or not.   It would make a difference on how conversations go.

[Willa]

Jesus came to glorify the Father, to reveal Him and point us to Him.  His life and words reflect the nature of our Father in heaven.  

The Holy Spirit came to glorify Jesus, to reveal Him and point us to Him and His work on the cross.  He convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement.

[Who me]

17 hours ago, ZippZapp12 said:

how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit work together

Welcome, I hope I make sense  to you.

 

There is a hierarchy in the trinity, the spirit looks to Jesus, Jesus looks to the Father, yet all are equally God.

The nearest illustration is marriage. The husband is the Head of the household and his wife has promised to obey him.

Yet the two are also equal, neither is more important than the other.

The power imbalance is corrected by the husbands duty to love his wife, as sacrificial as Jesus loved his church.

 

It is the same in the trinity, each loves and responds to each other, there advantage is they are perfect with 

Perfect knowledge of each other.

 

Hope this helps.

[Deborah_]

17 hours ago, ZippZapp12 said:

Hey,

I would like someone to explain how God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit work together? Do the Son and Holy Spirit ever get to choose to do anything out of their own will or do they always submit to the Fathers will? How does the whole process work?

 

In John 15:16 Jesus says I chose you, but in every other verse he says he does not do anything but the Fathers will.

In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, it is said that the Holy Spirit decides who he will give spiritual gifts too. Does this mean that the Holy Spirit can do as he want?

Thanks

This question can't be answered in just one sentence. This may help:

https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-trinity/8-three-in-one/

 

[ZippZapp12]

14 hours ago, other one said:

Once we get past that and understand that Jesus existed in the form of God before he lowered himself to be a man, we can understand more how they work

According to scripture, all things come from the Father.....   but all things came through Jesus when he existed as Yahweh.   As far as mankind knew he was our Lord God.  But he was not the Father.  He was on equal status as the Father but he was not over him.

When he set aside that status and became a mortal human, he relinquished the power he had and only did what the Father showed him to do.

After his death and resurrection, he made it possible through his righteousness for us to be a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit which was sent by the father to be an interface between us as born again believers and Jesus and the Father.  The Holy Spirit will only pass on what he is told as I understand it.   When we pray or need something it is the Holy Spirit that carries those prayers and needs and He instructs us in the things we need to know and understand

As it stands Jesus and the Father are on equal status, but he is not over the Father and this will remain until all the Godhead's enemies have been put away so to speak, then Jesus in his resurrected glorified status will willingly subject himself to the Father so things can  be as they should be.

I would ask, to be sure, if you accept the trinity as reality or not.   It would make a difference on how conversations go.

Yes, I believe in the trinity. Thank you for the answer. I've understood that God plans everything as the Father and executes everything as the Son and Holy Spirit. But when I hear that the Son and Holy Spirit obeys the Fathers will only, I cannot help but start thinking about them as two robots that a person is controlling. That's why I get confused.