Sin Is Nasty Business

[Your closest friendnt]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:37 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Precisely!

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

We are not to wish for anyone to go to Hell. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard in person someone saying to another, “Go to Hell.” They have no forethought or concept of what is coming from their mouths.

Admittedly, I struggle to pray for people committing atrocities, beheading babies, children, and holocaust survivors as examples, but God still loves them. That is valuable if our intercessory prayers convert even one or a few of those people, keeping them out of Hell. God’s justice is meted out justly and perfectly.

By all accounts of the people closest to the infamous Jeffrey Dahmer, he accepted the Lord in prison before his murder.

Yep, too many people picture Hell as drinking and playing poker with their buddies for all eternity; many do not even believe Hell exists.

What eternal horror, the absence of Light, no blessings (good things) ever, only bad things, the worm burns forever, having all your senses and facilities, pain, suffering, and torment 24/7, continual darkness with no HOPE forever. Constant wailing and gnashing of teeth, I can take that also to imply they are still angry toward God and cursing.

According to my interpretation of scripture below, Satan and his minions will be nobodies for eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

The most precious gift given to us is our eternal souls made in the image of God. As the Bible states, our lives are but a vapor that quickly disappears. We can escape our just rewards by Grace, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I am not sure why post Romans 12:19, and then follow with the statement "that I do not wish for anyone to go to Hell". Romans 12:19 it is instructions to believers and it does not set the standard of who goes to Hell or not.

It does say something about having the right to avenge for an injustice done to us or to someone else but to bring the matter to the Lord and let him decide, after all why called him Lord...

Anyway there is nothing in the bible to suggest that Jesus or the Jews ever spoken the word Hell as this word was not in their vocabulary even the disciples did not and all the ancient manuscripts also did not.

To used the word Hell it does not do justice to Scriptures to correctly convey the message in specific scriptures because the translators who first introduced this word they substitute many words, a group of words found in scripture with this word. 

Jesus did not used it and it is not that he knew this word but he did not want to include it in his vocabulary, it is that no one in his time in the Nation of Israel, the Jews and or the Pharisees had knowledge of the existence of the word "Hell".

The Egyptians did not, neither the Greeks and the Romans or the people of Mesopotamia and that it would include Abraham and or Moses and Aaron. 

It was first found in some translations of the Bible. 

If we accept the used of the world "Hell" as it is supposed to be used with the Christian faith it denotes the fate of someone who has been through the final judgment before Jesus Christ and he is standing before Jesus Christ with the denial or the decision he has made not to believe in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his sins and he died without repenting and believing. 

Because there is Heaven or the Heavenly Inheritance for those who have their sins forgiven in Jesus Christ, in the day when they bow down for their final judgment after their death, and there is the place away from God and Jesus Christ which is not a Heavenly one for those who bow down before Jesus Christ and who have died without having their sins forgiven in Jesus Christ and that place it is in our days synonymous to the word "Hell" which comunicates that the ones who are sent to that place known in our time and society as "Hell", because in other Nations and languages is known by some other names, but it always denotes that the person who is judged to Hell has been judged by the Judge of all and after the last day of his life, after he he died and never before that. 

For this reason and other reasons it is impossible that before the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the time of Abraham and Moses and in the Covenant of Sinai the Israelites or the Jews or Pharisees they ever used this word "Hell" to referred to the final destination of anyone because they believed in some day of the final judgment from God which yet had not come but it was promised to come. 

In our Christian faith as Jesus himself said and with all the witnesses besides the prophetic scriptures and Jesus said that God has given the Judgement of all the world to him. That God will Judge no one, Jesus Christ will seat in judgment of the whole world, every knee shall bow down before him on that day of their final judgment. 

The Jews were not afraid to Judge Jesus because they believed in the last judgment, but they believed that they will be Judged by someone else, as there are many non Christian faiths who  believe that in our times. 

Hell is synonymous to the place of those who have appeared before the Judgement seat of Jesus Christ having refused to have their sins forgiven in Jesus Christ and they died in that state.

For that reason the first person to be gone to Hell should be the first person who appeared before the Judgement seat of Jesus Christ without having his sins forgiven in the blood of Jesus Christ. For that reason it can never happen before the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ...but right after when God gave Jesus Christ all the authority on earth and in Heaven and in all the things under the earth.  Which it happens two thousand years ago. 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Dennis1209]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:30 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

@Dennis1209

If I understood correctly this passage is referring to people as they go on living. And the time will come that when they sin death will come to them because they sin. Does that statement also includes that before they sin they were not in Death? because death will come to them after they sin. Were they alive before they sin? 

* Please can you elaborate about the meaning of death in this context? What is this all about? 

If I understand your question correctly, Adam was created sinless and was created not to die physically or spiritually. To be an imager of God and live in His fellowship forever.

A single sin corrupted the physical human genome, as well as spiritual death and separation from God. Is this along the lines of your question?  

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

If I understand your question correctly, Adam was created sinless and was created not to die physically or spiritually. To be an imager of God and live in His fellowship forever.

A single sin corrupted the physical human genome, as well as spiritual death and separation from God. Is this along the lines of your question?  

The point of my question is simply and seeks to clarify the statement that we all sin therefore we died because we sin. 

It is a simple question for discussion, were all alive before we sin that caused our death?  That has nothing to do with the physical death of course unless someone sees it that way.

Were we alive before we sin  or perhaps we can say in another way. 

[FJK]

6 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

It is a simple question for discussion, were all alive before we sin that caused our death?  That has nothing to do with the physical death of course unless someone sees it that way.

Not proposing this as a truth, just something to consider.

It's quite possible that the Tree of Life in the Garden, something Adam and Ever were allowed to eat from, prevented the slow decay of the body and its death through aging and when they ate the forbidden fruit they were then cast out of the Garden and started suffering natural aging, decay and death since they no longer had the Tree of Life to eat from.

 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, FJK said:

Not proposing this as a truth, just something to consider.

It's quite possible that the Tree of Life in the Garden, something Adam and Ever were allowed to eat from, prevented the slow decay of the body and its death through aging and when they ate the forbidden fruit they were then cast out of the Garden and started suffering natural aging, decay and death since they no longer had the Tree of Life to eat from.

 

Hello the question is revolving about a statement as follows "that death came upon all people because they all sin". And this is the question, does that statement is telling us that they were in the Life before they sin and for that reason death came to them all?

[FJK]

8 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello the question is revolving about a statement as follows "that death came upon all people because they all sin". And this is the question, does that statement is telling us that they were in the Life before they sin and for that reason death came to them all?

From the standpoint of my post, which I'm not promoting as some kind of truth by any means, just something to think about, death is now upon all people since they can no longer eat of the Tree of Life because it is in the Garden and no one has access to the Garden any more.  The story of the fall does indicate that Adam and Eve (which is where all mankind comes from) were cast out so they couldn't eat from that tree and since there was  only one tree they were forbidden to eat from it can be assumed that they could, and probably did, eat from the Tree of Life while they were there.

All men sin now because they are born into a corrupted world where sin rules instead of into the Garden where perfection rules (ruled).

[Starise]

12 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hello the question is revolving about a statement as follows "that death came upon all people because they all sin". And this is the question, does that statement is telling us that they were in the Life before they sin and for that reason death came to them all?

I see the penchant for sin as expediting the process of death. Not only death to the body, but inner damage to the soul.  Non believers are sinners, but they can stay away from the bad things and lessen the impact to themselves. All sin leads to death, and since sin is inherent in us we are on the road to eventual death all of us. People will either accept the fix or they won't.

Realization of the sin that makes us do the things we do, things we didn't really want to do as Christians or things they continue to do if an unbeliever not really giving it much thought, maybe an occasional moment of conviction. A fast "I'm sorry" sometimes only intended as a way to let themselvces off the hook so they can go do it again. Often they really are sorry, but figure they are minimal sinners and don't dwell on it, especially if they can point to "good things" they think mean something to God. Then it becomes a sort of balance like, ok  I did that bad thing, but look at all of the good things I do. This is where memory often clouds judgement because if we could all see every sin we've ever committed, we would point to ourselves as despicable persons.

[Your closest friendnt]

@Starise when I read the statement "death came to them because they all sin", and when no specific context was given to define who are "to them" and then the need to further look into "they all sin" if it is to all inclusive without any exceptions. Under those sircumstances I asked the question if this was said about Moses and the Israelites at the time period of their Sinai Covenant and during their time in the dessert with Moses. In this context we have the Israelites, no the rest of the world. And we have the Lord God who said to them that I am only your God, and the Lord God of your children's children while you yet live and I will continue to be your God after you die. No other God can take you from me while you yet live and also after you die. This way God frame them and he set them apart from the rest of the world who was outside that frame and as anyother nation could not breach that frame, only as individuals according to the rules God gave them. They rest of the world they had their own Gods, each nation or a province of a nation had their own Gods but after their death all the Nations of the world had the same God and without exceptions they were accountable to the God of the dead HADES. All of them but the people of God the Israelites and anyone who was within that frame with them who were the only ones the only nation of the world to be under the jurisdiction of the same God they had while they were yet alive, or before they died. 

Before the Covenant of Sinai they were the only people alive to God as they were eligible to be in the Covenant of Circumcision. They were alive to God from birth, they were born to their Lord God and their parents had to Circumcised them because they were born as the children of God. They did not need their agreement or their confession or their consent to Circumcised them because they were Circumcised or branded to let them know that they were the children of God that they had the blessings of God before even born. "Every male that opens the matrix is mine", that is can been seen with the first son of Moses whom his mother keep him to her family and tried to seperate him from the Nation of Israel by not letting Moses Circumcised him, and the time came when God told Moses that the child was his and he wanted him and asked Moses to Circumcised him.  

They Israelites at that time they were alive to God or they were the people of God before they sin and they were still the people of God after they sin, as we see in the Sons of Jacob. Who were the Patriarchs of the Israelites the Patriarhs of the twelve tribes inspite of all the sins they did. Too numerous to list them down. 

In spite of all their sins they were not seperated from God.

These are a group of people who were alive to God before they sin and continue to be alive to God after they sin. Alive as not been seperated from God. God continues to be their God before they sin and after they sin and while they lived and after they died He was still their God and the God of the dead could not touch them or draw near to them. 

The same can be said for Abraham who committed sins and his sins did not seperated him from God. Who lived before the Covenant of Sinai, which provided for the forgiveness of their sins through the Atonement made by the blood of the sacrificial animals in the Temple and before the Lord God by the Priesthood. 

And the sins of the believers in Jesus Christ, who live after the annulment of the Sinai Covenant and after the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, the Slain Lamb of God do not have the power to separate them from Jesus Christ and God. 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Your closest friendnt

[Starise]

7 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

@Starise when I read the statement "death came to them because they all sin", and when no specific context was given to define who are "to them" and then the need to further look into "they all sin" if it is to all inclusive without any exceptions. Under those sircumstances I asked the question if this was said about Moses and the Israelites at the time period of their Sinai Covenant and during their time in the dessert with Moses. In this context we have the Israelites, no the rest of the world. And we have the Lord God who said to them that I am only your God, and the Lord God of your children's children while you yet live and I will continue to be your God after you die. No other God can take you from me while you yet live and also after you die. This way God frame them and he set them apart from the rest of the world who was outside that frame and as anyother nation could not breach that frame, only as individuals according to the rules God gave them. They rest of the world they had their own Gods, each nation or a province of a nation had their own Gods but after their death all the Nations of the world had the same God and without exceptions they were accountable to the God of the dead HADES. All of them but the people of God the Israelites and anyone who was within that frame with them who were the only ones the only nation of the world to be under the jurisdiction of the same God they had while they were yet alive, or before they died. 

Before the Covenant of Sinai they were the only people alive to God as they were eligible to be in the Covenant of Circumcision. They were alive to God from birth, they were born to their Lord God and their parents had to Circumcised them because they were born as the children of God. They did not need their agreement or their confession or their consent to Circumcised them because they were Circumcised or branded to let them know that they were the children of God that they had the blessings of God before even born. "Every male that opens the matrix is mine", that is can been seen with the first son of Moses whom his mother keep him to her family and tried to seperate him from the Nation of Israel by not letting Moses Circumcised him, and the time came when God told Moses that the child was his and he wanted him and asked Moses to Circumcised him.  

They Israelites at that time they were alive to God or they were the people of God before they sin and they were still the people of God after they sin, as we see in the Sons of Jacob. Who were the Patriarchs of the Israelites the Patriarhs of the twelve tribes inspite of all the sins they did. Too numerous to list them down. 

In spite of all their sins they were not seperated from God.

These are a group of people who were alive to God before they sin and continue to be alive to God after they sin. Alive as not been seperated from God. God continues to be their God before they sin and after they sin and while they lived and after they died He was still their God and the God of the dead could not touch them or draw near to them. 

The same can be said for Abraham who committed sins and his sins did not seperated him from God. Who lived before the Covenant of Sinai, which provided for the forgiveness of their sins through the Atonement made by the blood of the sacrificial animals in the Temple and before the Lord God by the Priesthood. 

And the sins of the believers in Jesus Christ, who live after the annulment of the Sinai Covenant and after the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, the Slain Lamb of God do not have the power to separate them from Jesus Christ and God. 

 

@Your closest friendnt

I believe I see what you are saying here. In your opinion the Jews were collectively the 'chosen' and as such had the eternal protection of God.

I don't believe we can get away from the fact  Israel is chosen. Does this equate to eternal salvation to each individual? If so this would more support the reformed doctrine ideas.

I see God dealing with His people corporately, maybe in a different way individually. Some say the geographic Israel of today isn't really the true Israel. If we look at the modern collective Israel, we see a nation almost indestinquishable from other nations in terms of loyalty to God and moral cleanliness, with the exception of the multiple religions residing there .

I don't fall into line with those ideas, the ideas that say their geographic location isn't an accurate depiction of the true country.

There are  those who say the collective church is the new Israel. I believe these kinds of ideas lead us to confusion since the gentiles were 'grafted' into the same tree as Israel.

So what is the truth here? I see Israel as an existing country but a fallen country. We know they are largely blinded from the truth due to the callousness of their ancestors. Everything God does with them is designed to bring them back to Himself. If Israel is a fallen country spiritually, then my conclusions are there are many unsaved or what I call lost people in it who would certainly not go to be with the Lord if they die. In this respect, I see no respect of persons. Neither am I a person who buys completely into reformed doctrine even though I attend a reformed church often. It is true they, Israel, were chosen as a people and I see collective but not necessarily individual benefits from it.

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

@Your closest friendnt

I believe I see what you are saying here. In your opinion the Jews were collectively the 'chosen' and as such had the eternal protection of God.

I don't believe we can get away from the fact  Israel is chosen. Does this equate to eternal salvation to each individual? If so this would more support the reformed doctrine ideas.

I see God dealing with His people corporately, maybe in a different way individually. Some say the geographic Israel of today isn't really the true Israel. If we look at the modern collective Israel, we see a nation almost indestinquishable from other nations in terms of loyalty to God and moral cleanliness, with the exception of the multiple religions residing there .

I don't fall into line with those ideas, the ideas that say their geographic location isn't an accurate depiction of the true country.

There are  those who say the collective church is the new Israel. I believe these kinds of ideas lead us to confusion since the gentiles were 'grafted' into the same tree as Israel.

So what is the truth here? I see Israel as an existing country but a fallen country. We know they are largely blinded from the truth due to the callousness of their ancestors. Everything God does with them is designed to bring them back to Himself. If Israel is a fallen country spiritually, then my conclusions are there are many unsaved or what I call lost people in it who would certainly not go to be with the Lord if they die. In this respect, I see no respect of persons. Neither am I a person who buys completely into reformed doctrine even though I attend a reformed church often. It is true they, Israel, were chosen as a people and I see collective but not necessarily individual benefits from it.

Sorry to say that but what you have posted has nothing to do with me and my posting.