AN INQUIRING MIND WOULD LIKE TO KNOW

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I like and admire how you best answer and interpret scripture; let scripture explain scripture; good on you.

However, and it seems I always have a, however. 😊

So I will understand your view better, let me simplify my question in two parts below:

I used examples of those raised from the dead before Christ, during Jesus walking the earth, before His ascension, and the apostle Paul – Eutychus. Those cannot be the firstfruits, as Jesus was and had to be.

As you explain, it was leading captivity captive, dungeon to dungeon, so to speak. A single example of the many dead seen and witnessed in Jerusalem (the holy city) Matthew chapter 27.

• Where is that captivity right now they reside in?

The same question is for those who were raised from the dead under the Old Covenant and continued sacrificing.

• Where is that captivity right now they reside in?

In other words:

• Has the Paradise side of Abraham's bosom, as opposed to the torment side of Hades, been cleaned out yet?

Popular exegesis is that after Jesus rose from the dead, all born-again believers spirits (all of humanity's spirits, Ec. 12:7) return to the Lord who gave them, and believers' souls immediately go to heaven, not Hades.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Before the cross, many believe the souls of those with faith and trust (still the standard today) went to a temporary holding cell (Hades-dungeon), awaiting the once and for all atonement and propitiation through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thanks for putting up with me AdHoc.

The question of firstfruits is a very valid one. I believe the answer lies in Revelation 20 and Philippians 3. In Philippians 3:9-14 Paul speaks of exactly the same subject as 1st Thessalonians 4 - resurrection and rapture. In Philippians 3 he introduces us to a special resurrection. The Greek word is used just this once, "exanastasis". Normally it is just "anastasis" for resurrection. The literal translation is "out-resurrection". It gives the thought of a "resurrection out of the resurrection". Some German expositors translate it the "EXceptional resurrection". And it is not only a special resurrection but Paul must "ATTAIN" to it.

Jumping to Revelation 20, we learn of "the FIRST resurrection" (v.4). The Greek for "first" is "protos". It can mean "first in time", and it can mean "first in importance". It too must be ATTAINED seeing as the members were martyrs and received crowns and thrones. Now, if seven people were resurrected before our Lord Jesus in time, we would find it difficult to say "first" means "first in time." This thought it thoroughly squashed when we read that some who EARNED the "First resurrection" lived at the time of the Beast, and were probably the last Christians to die. So the resurrection of Revelation 20:1-4 must be the "First in importance".

This provokes two questions. (i) Why did the Lord not allude to it in 1st Thessalonians 4 and in 1st Corinthians 15? And (ii) what allows the Lord to be Firstfruits if He wasn't the first in time?

The answer to (i) is easy. He did not mention the resurrection as one of reward because the Thessalonian Church was near perfect. Read 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 and 3 and see if you agree. Although Paul was only there for three weeks, the Holy Spirit has raised up an exemplary Church. Paul would have taught them this and they had applied themselves to good Christian living.

The answer to (ii) is not so easy, but I judge that the facts will prove it. How could our Lord Jesus be the first of Creation, the first from the dead, slain from the foundation of the world and have preeminence in ALL things? my answer is that He is ETERNAL in His being. Once He applied any experience to Himself, it became eternal, being part of "Him Who inhabits eternity".

Thus, as a Man He dies in "due time" (Rom-5:6), but as God He IS (present tense) before Abraham (Jn.8:58). And thus, He could be resurrected at any TIME and still be the Firstfruits. And because we were "raised together with Christ", it is not a matter of TIME in resurrection, but a matter of ripeness or maturity in divine Life and WORKS. All men will be resurrected, but there is a "class" of men who ATTAIN (through personal loss and intimacy with Christ) to a "Special Resurrection".

But is this revealed in 1st Corinthians 15? At first reading it does not seem like it. But it is. Because 1st Corinthians concerns all men, that is, Gentile, Israelite and New Man, it does not compare resurrections. They are too far apart to adequately compare. Instead 1st Corinthians compares the differing "GLORIES". The Nations "Terrestrial" including the Nation of Israel. The Church "Celestial" but with differing brightness. "Sun, moon and differing stars" for the Christians who ATTAIN to to co-kingship with Jesus must have their "righteousness shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom" (1st Cor.15:35-41, Matt.13:43).

The matter of 2nd Corinthians 5 is easily settled. Christians approach it with prejudice. They already believe it means heaven without proof. But they forget that they have put off the BODY at death. Christ is BODILY in heaven. How can they be with Christ without a BODY? Add this to John 4 and we see the relationship that God desires. Worship is a function of the Soul and the object of worship is a Spirit (Jn.4:24). And where does such a relationship take place. Psalm 139:7 onward says that the Spirit of God is found everywhere, but the soul of man is in view in Sheol (Hades) where he is" wrought" and from which he "shall awake" (vs.15, 18). Where then are the naked souls of men after death? Let scripture answer. David was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:26-34)And what is David's status in the millennium? On the throne and with the crown OVER ISRAEL (Jer.30:9) - the top of the heap.

I'll add some thoughts but its 02:00 here and I got visitors coming. Tomorrow night CET or Sunday.

Take care.

 

[Dennis1209]

12 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The question of firstfruits is a very valid one. I believe the answer lies in Revelation 20 and Philippians 3. In Philippians 3:9-14 Paul speaks of exactly the same subject as 1st Thessalonians 4 - resurrection and rapture. In Philippians 3 he introduces us to a special resurrection. The Greek word is used just this once, "exanastasis". Normally it is just "anastasis" for resurrection. The literal translation is "out-resurrection". It gives the thought of a "resurrection out of the resurrection". Some German expositors translate it the "EXceptional resurrection". And it is not only a special resurrection but Paul must "ATTAIN" to it.

Jumping to Revelation 20, we learn of "the FIRST resurrection" (v.4). The Greek for "first" is "protos". It can mean "first in time", and it can mean "first in importance". It too must be ATTAINED seeing as the members were martyrs and received crowns and thrones. Now, if seven people were resurrected before our Lord Jesus in time, we would find it difficult to say "first" means "first in time." This thought it thoroughly squashed when we read that some who EARNED the "First resurrection" lived at the time of the Beast, and were probably the last Christians to die. So the resurrection of Revelation 20:1-4 must be the "First in importance".

This provokes two questions. (i) Why did the Lord not allude to it in 1st Thessalonians 4 and in 1st Corinthians 15? And (ii) what allows the Lord to be Firstfruits if He wasn't the first in time?

The answer to (i) is easy. He did not mention the resurrection as one of reward because the Thessalonian Church was near perfect. Read 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 and 3 and see if you agree. Although Paul was only there for three weeks, the Holy Spirit has raised up an exemplary Church. Paul would have taught them this and they had applied themselves to good Christian living.

The answer to (ii) is not so easy, but I judge that the facts will prove it. How could our Lord Jesus be the first of Creation, the first from the dead, slain from the foundation of the world and have preeminence in ALL things? my answer is that He is ETERNAL in His being. Once He applied any experience to Himself, it became eternal, being part of "Him Who inhabits eternity".

Thus, as a Man He dies in "due time" (Rom-5:6), but as God He IS (present tense) before Abraham (Jn.8:58). And thus, He could be resurrected at any TIME and still be the Firstfruits. And because we were "raised together with Christ", it is not a matter of TIME in resurrection, but a matter of ripeness or maturity in divine Life and WORKS. All men will be resurrected, but there is a "class" of men who ATTAIN (through personal loss and intimacy with Christ) to a "Special Resurrection".

But is this revealed in 1st Corinthians 15? At first reading it does not seem like it. But it is. Because 1st Corinthians concerns all men, that is, Gentile, Israelite and New Man, it does not compare resurrections. They are too far apart to adequately compare. Instead 1st Corinthians compares the differing "GLORIES". The Nations "Terrestrial" including the Nation of Israel. The Church "Celestial" but with differing brightness. "Sun, moon and differing stars" for the Christians who ATTAIN to to co-kingship with Jesus must have their "righteousness shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom" (1st Cor.15:35-41, Matt.13:43).

The matter of 2nd Corinthians 5 is easily settled. Christians approach it with prejudice. They already believe it means heaven without proof. But they forget that they have put off the BODY at death. Christ is BODILY in heaven. How can they be with Christ without a BODY? Add this to John 4 and we see the relationship that God desires. Worship is a function of the Soul and the object of worship is a Spirit (Jn.4:24). And where does such a relationship take place. Psalm 139:7 onward says that the Spirit of God is found everywhere, but the soul of man is in view in Sheol (Hades) where he is" wrought" and from which he "shall awake" (vs.15, 18). Where then are the naked souls of men after death? Let scripture answer. David was still in Hades 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension (Act.2:26-34)And what is David's status in the millennium? On the throne and with the crown OVER ISRAEL (Jer.30:9) - the top of the heap.

I'll add some thoughts but its 02:00 here and I got visitors coming. Tomorrow night CET or Sunday.

Take care.

 

Excellent! You have mentioned some things I never thought about. You gave me a lot to chew on and delve deeper into. Thanks!

[Jaydub]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I must say, fellow soldiers in Christ, there is not a dot of evidence that dead men can die again, or that living men can die twice.

 

^{John 12: 9} When the large crowd of the Jews learned that Jesus was there, they came, not only on account of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.  So the chief priests made plans to put Lazarus to death as well,  because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and believing in Jesus.

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Jaydub said:

 

^{John 12: 9} When the large crowd of the Jews learned that Jesus was there, they came, not only on account of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.  So the chief priests made plans to put Lazarus to death as well,  because on account of him many of the Jews were going away and believing in Jesus.

Yes. Lazarus was a symbol of the power that our Lord wielded. If they flocked to Him because he fed 5,000, how much more famous He would be if the case of Lazarus could be repeated over and over. They surely planned to get rid of him. But what do you think of our Lord's words in Luke 20:35-36? Supposing they caught Lazarus in a dark alley in Bethany one night ...

 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

... do you think they would be able to kill him?

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. Lazarus was a symbol of the power that our Lord wielded. If they flocked to Him because he fed 5,000, how much more famous He would be if the case of Lazarus could be repeated over and over. They surely planned to get rid of him. But what do you think of our Lord's words in Luke 20:35-36? Supposing they caught Lazarus in a dark alley in Bethany one night ...

 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

... do you think they would be able to kill him?

I have another verse in mind about the verse you quoted.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry (1060), nor are given in marriage (1548), but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I notice “where” this is stated that they do not. I have thoughts about Genesis 6:1-4 where they did.

1060.    Marry: γαμέω gamĕō, gam-eh´-o; from 1062; to wed (of either sex):— marry (a wife).^[1]

1548.  Marriage: ἐκγαμίσκω ĕkgamiskō, ek-gam-is´-ko; from 1537 and 1061; the same as 1547:—give in marriage.^[2]

Do you have any thoughts on the differences between marry, and given in marriage, or is it repeated twice? Betrothed-engaged does not seem to fit with “marry.” Given in marriage seems to work for the traditional father giving away the bride.

Am I overthinking this?

 

---

^[1] Strong, J. (1996). In The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Thomas Nelson.

^[2] Strong, J. (2009). In A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 26). Logos Bible Software.

[Jaydub]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Yes. Lazarus was a symbol of the power that our Lord wielded. If they flocked to Him because he fed 5,000, how much more famous He would be if the case of Lazarus could be repeated over and over. They surely planned to get rid of him. But what do you think of our Lord's words in Luke 20:35-36? Supposing they caught Lazarus in a dark alley in Bethany one night ...

 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

... do you think they would be able to kill him?

You said

19 hours ago, Jaydub said:

there is not a dot of evidence that dead men can die again,

The fact that they planed to kill Lazarus is at least a dot of evidence that man can die again. The scripture you asked me about in Luke 20 :35-36 is about the resurrection. Whose wife will she be at the resurrection? At the resurrection we receive our incorruptible bodies, these bodies do not die again. The  corruptible bodies, if by Gods grace are given life again, through someone faith or anointing, that body will die again

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I have another verse in mind about the verse you quoted.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry (1060), nor are given in marriage (1548), but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I notice “where” this is stated that they do not. I have thoughts about Genesis 6:1-4 where they did.

1060.    Marry: γαμέω gamĕō, gam-eh´-o; from 1062; to wed (of either sex):— marry (a wife).^[1]

1548.  Marriage: ἐκγαμίσκω ĕkgamiskō, ek-gam-is´-ko; from 1537 and 1061; the same as 1547:—give in marriage.^[2]

Do you have any thoughts on the differences between marry, and given in marriage, or is it repeated twice? Betrothed-engaged does not seem to fit with “marry.” Given in marriage seems to work for the traditional father giving away the bride.

Am I overthinking this?

 

---

^[1] Strong, J. (1996). In The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Thomas Nelson.

^[2] Strong, J. (2009). In A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 26). Logos Bible Software.

No. It's a fair question.

The Lord accused the Pharisees that by their traditions they made the Word of God of nine effect (Matt.15:6, Mk.7:13). For reasons of controlling people and their inheritance, we have declared state recognition for marriage. It must be administered at best by tradition, and at worst by a state appointed official. But Biblical marriage is not a tradition nor a piece of paper. God declared it as a man and woman copulating and then staying to together to form a new union over and above the parent-child union. God's definition has quite some information in it;

 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
...
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder (Gen.2:22–24, Mat.19:4–6)

1. The law of kinds in Genesis 1:11-12 is made prominent "MY bone of bone and MY flesh of flesh"
2. This is upheld doubly by the Wo-man having her ORIGIN in the man
3. "Cleave" means to "cling to" or "keep close". It refers to them not parting
4. "Become one flesh" is the sexual act
5. Leave father and mother. A new unit is formed to supersede that of the womb. This does not absolve the man of honoring his parents, nor respecting them. It simply gives the woman first love and first loyalty. It also establishes geographical distance. God wants the man free of immediate influence by his parents in favor of the wife.

The union thus made is blessed by the Lord and man is forbidden to do anything to damage this union. The union between woman and angel violates all of the above 5 points. The angel is a completely different species. He is not from the man. To have sex he must "leave his estate" (Jude 6). the word "estate" comes from the root word "to be first". It can mean "his rule". The idea is their "beginning" gave them status which they left. Angels had the equipment for sex but where not made for this.*

The bottom line is that marriage is the sex act, that angels do not marry (because marriage is an act and not a piece of paper). This act is not authorized by God for angels. And thus, once we have our resurrection body we will forego the sexual act. Death ends the union (1st Cor.7:2-3). On arising the Christian is "given" into a new marriage with Christ (2nd Cor.11:2) - but one of a united "spirit" (1st Cor.6:17).
 

* I judge that the motive of woman for this grievous breach of the law of species was lust, but the angels, under authority of Satan, had another. All the acts of Satan against men is to meddle with "the seed of the woman" from which Jesus would come. Satan attacks this seed from every angle - angels copulating, murder, war, conspiring to provole men to disobey God, homosexuality and bestiality.

[AdHoc]

17 hours ago, Jaydub said:

The fact that they planed to kill Lazarus is at least a dot of evidence that man can die again.

If you judge so, I uphold your right to. For me, a man who plans the impossible does not constitute evidence that his plan succeeded. Man has many plans. They were never realized. Planning something is not evidence that they succeeded. I would say that their plan was valid but they had no idea what they were up against. Our Lord Jesus, Creator of all things, breathed out galaxies (Ps.33:6). If He has decreed that a man cannot die twice, the whole world's Special Forces would not be able to kill the resurrected Lazarus.

 

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, Jaydub said:

At the resurrection we receive our incorruptible bodies, these bodies do not die again. The  corruptible bodies, if by Gods grace are given life again, through someone faith or anointing, that body will die again

Well, scripture does not allow for that. The reason men die is because of Adam's transgression (Rom.5:12-17, 6:23). Death ends this bondage. Notice the grammar;

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. (1 Co 15:21–22).

All men, whether Christian of Israelite or Gentile will be raised. Then, from verse 34 the Holy Spirit speaks of in what body the resurrected will come. The verses do NOT make a difference between glorified and non-glorified bodies. They are ALL glorified, but with DIFFERING glories. They are ALL raised in "incorruption!"

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body (vs.42–44)

The reason that God can raise men from the dead is Christ's death as Lamb (Jn.1:29). Resurrection is not an event for some people. John 1:29 says that the "sin" (singular) OF THE WORLD was "taken away". Thus, ALL men will be resurrected because Jesus' death authorized it legally. It is a work of God, not a reward for man. Notice the two types of dead in this passage;

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (Jn 5:25–29)

"the dead" are all men who "hear". This is all men who "have ears and hear". But in verse 28 it is not "the dead", but "ALL those in graves". The first is those who "hear" the gospel and go from "dead in your sins" to "life. The second group are the physically dead who are in graves. They are judged after death (the White Throne). In the first it is "ALL" who hear, in the second it is "ALL in graves".

[Jaydub]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Our Lord Jesus, Creator of all things, breathed out galaxies (Ps.33:6). If He has decreed that a man cannot die twice, the whole world's Special Forces would not be able to kill the resurrected Lazarus.

Off the top of my head I can think of at least 8 times someone was raised from the dead in scripture, not counting the time multiple people were reported to have risen. I would like to know what you think happened to these people after they were given life again?

I think the fact that man was appointed once to die speaks of our spiritual man. We die to sin or we die eternally. remember Jesus said, in John, that if we believe in him we pass over death unto life.

Jesus doesn't see the lose of life as death. Jesus said to his disciples, Lazarus was asleep. When Jesus went to Jairus's house, he told the mourners that his daughter was sleeping not dead.