Has the 70 Weeks of Daniel prophecy been fulfilled in history ?

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

First of all you are transposing.  Daniels people and Daniels holy city for Christ the Messiah.  The 70 Sevens are for them to fulfill.

Lets look...  1 Cor 14:22 - Tongues, then are a sign not for the Believer, but for the unbeliever;  Prophecy, however, is for the Believers, not unbelievers.  v14b - But he who prophesies edifies the Church.  And all this written about 56 AD, about 30 years after Christ death.  So some have a problem with Paul's message.  And some say vision and prophecy are sealed up (Dan 9:24)  The Book of Revelation is full of vision and prophecy, well after the Messiahs death.

More:  Zech 13:1 - On that day, a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants off Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. v. 4 On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision.  He will say, I am not a prophet, but a farmer.  When is this On that Day?  But shortly after the 2nd Coming.

Dan 9:24 is the path to Israels Salvation.  It does not happen until the 2nd Coming. Thus the final One Seven is yet into the future.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks, but the entire 70 weeks of years prophecy is for the restoration of Jerusalem, the Temple, the Jewish people, etc., including the feast days, the sabbatical cycles. 
 Everything HAD to be fully restored PRIOR to the coming of the Messiah on the first day of the 70th week. Then, He would represent the last piece of furniture to be restored in the sanctuary (the first piece of furniture taken away before the Babylonians came), and He was given these 6 requirements by God to complete within this set aside week. 
 

Only the Messiah could have fulfilled these requirements - they are not requirements any man could fulfill.

But clearly you have a much different understanding of Daniel than I have… and that’s okay. We are here to exchange ideas and thoughts. 
 

Regarding your comment that the last 7 years are thrown some 2000 years in the future and this also takes with it some of the other verses within 9:24-27, that is unscriptural as well (imo). 
 

The 7 year tribulation is a Jesuit created evil, intentional misinterpretation developed in the 16th century - commissioned by the papacy to, in part, remove the title of the papacy being found to be the “little horn” of Daniel 7 and 8. 
 

Jesus arrived AFTER the 69th week  ENDED. His ministry began on the 1st day of the 70th week. He was anointed in the Jordan on that same day. His ministry lasted 3.5 years INTO that final week. Despite being crucified before the week (7 years or the set aside period) ended, He declared on the cross, “it is finished.” Jesus indeed fulfilled ALL of His Father’s requirements. 
 

Approximately, 3 to 4 years later, Stephen would give a complete accounting of the Messiah and how they (Pharisees) crucified their own Messiah. Right before his stoning, God allowed him to see Him standing next to the Father… telling us that Jesus fulfilled His mission and His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. The heavenly sanctuary was cleansed, and He would be given the dominion, the kingdom. 
 

This is all about the Messiah. He certainly takes precedence over His people who rejected Him. But they will return to Him at the end of days and preach the Messiah for 3.5 years  - then, the  4th Great Jubilee will be completed and bring in the Messiah. 

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks, but the entire 70 weeks of years prophecy is for the restoration of Jerusalem, the Temple, the Jewish people, etc., including the feast days, the sabbatical cycles. 
 Everything HAD to be fully restored PRIOR to the coming of the Messiah on the first day of the 70th week. Then, He would represent the last piece of furniture to be restored in the sanctuary (the first piece of furniture taken away before the Babylonians came), and He was given these 6 requirements by God to complete within this set aside week. 
 

Only the Messiah could have fulfilled these requirements - they are not requirements any man could fulfill.

But clearly you have a much different understanding of Daniel than I have… and that’s okay. We are here to exchange ideas and thoughts. 
 

Regarding your comment that the last 7 years are thrown some 2000 years in the future and this also takes with it some of the other verses within 9:24-27, that is unscriptural as well (imo). 
 

The 7 year tribulation is a Jesuit created evil, intentional misinterpretation developed in the 16th century - commissioned by the papacy to, in part, remove the title of the papacy being found to be the “little horn” of Daniel 7 and 8. 
 

Jesus arrived AFTER the 69th week  ENDED. His ministry began on the 1st day of the 70th week. He was anointed in the Jordan on that same day. His ministry lasted 3.5 years INTO that final week. Despite being crucified before the week (7 years or the set aside period) ended, He declared on the cross, “it is finished.” Jesus indeed fulfilled ALL of His Father’s requirements. 
 

Approximately, 3 to 4 years later, Stephen would give a complete accounting of the Messiah and how they (Pharisees) crucified their own Messiah. Right before his stoning, God allowed him to see Him standing next to the Father… telling us that Jesus fulfilled His mission and His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. The heavenly sanctuary was cleansed, and He would be given the dominion, the kingdom. 
 

This is all about the Messiah. He certainly takes precedence over His people who rejected Him. But they will return to Him at the end of days and preach the Messiah for 3.5 years  - then, the  4th Great Jubilee will be completed and bring in the Messiah. 

Also, Marc.. the 70 weeks are NOT for the Jews to fulfill. They are “determined” or a clearer way of saying it, “they are intended to be given TO his people and his city. They are not meant as a prophecy to be given to the Gentiles. This is one of the reasons Gabriel recorded “to seal up or shut up” these prophecies. They are to be sealed until the Jews are once again restored in their city. Consequently, during the 69 weeks of the 70 weeks prophecy, they would have access to a completed Tanakh (includes Daniel), and it would have all the Messianic prophecies for them to read, study and understand the coming of their Messiah. 

[Montana Marv]

8 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Also, Marc.. the 70 weeks are NOT for the Jews to fulfill. They are “determined” or a clearer way of saying it, “they are intended to be given TO his people and his city. They are not meant as a prophecy to be given to the Gentiles. This is one of the reasons Gabriel recorded “to seal up or shut up” these prophecies. They are to be sealed until the Jews are once again restored in their city. Consequently, during the 69 weeks of the 70 weeks prophecy, they would have access to a completed Tanakh (includes Daniel), and it would have all the Messianic prophecies for them to read, study and understand the coming of their Messiah. 

I beg your pardon.  Dan 9:24 - 70 Sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city TO, TO, to - 1. Finish Transgression,  2. Put an end to sin, 3.  atone for wickedness, 4. bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. seal up vision and prophecy, 6. anoint the most holy.

Rev 1:3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take it to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

And you and others say that Jesus Christ the Messiah has already sealed up vision and prophecy. Then You have proved there are no 7 churches in Rev 2,3.  You have proved there are no 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, Chp 7. You have proved there are no Seal, Trumpet or Bowl judgments.

Israel still transgresses, still sins, is wicked, has not received everlasting righteousness, has not sealed up vision and prophecy, and has yet to anoint their Messiah.  They gave him a crown of thorns.

When Israel completes the 6 tasks, they become grafted back into the Tree.  They were yanked out because of disbelief, they will be restored when they believe in the one who they have pierced.

Yes we do have our differences.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Charlie744]

44 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

I beg your pardon.  Dan 9:24 - 70 Sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city TO, TO, to - 1. Finish Transgression,  2. Put an end to sin, 3.  atone for wickedness, 4. bring in everlasting righteousness, 5. seal up vision and prophecy, 6. anoint the most holy.

Rev 1:3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take it to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

And you and others say that Jesus Christ the Messiah has already sealed up vision and prophecy. Then You have proved there are no 7 churches in Rev 2,3.  You have proved there are no 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, Chp 7. You have proved there are no Seal, Trumpet or Bowl judgments.

Israel still transgresses, still sins, is wicked, has not received everlasting righteousness, has not sealed up vision and prophecy, and has yet to anoint their Messiah.  They gave him a crown of thorns.

When Israel completes the 6 tasks, they become grafted back into the Tree.  They were yanked out because of disbelief, they will be restored when they believe in the one who they have pierced.

Yes we do have our differences.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. To be candid, and sincere, I have never heard this interpretation before! 

But I have to ask you how you come to the conclusion that my interpretation eliminates the events you mentioned in Revelation. 
 

Why would there be no 7 churches? 
 

Just a comment on one of your thoughts—- Jesus came to forgive our sins and pay the price for them by the cross. Thus, if we believe in Him our sins are not seen by Him at His return. But Jesus did NOT come to remove our sin nature!

Charlie. 

 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks, but I am not understanding how the Jewish people could ever fulfill these Messianic prophecies. 
These 6 were set aside for the Messiah to fulfill during the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Only He could address sin, transgressions and inequities. Only He can forgive sin, and only His sacrifice on the cross can pay the price for our transgressions. Only Jesus would be “anointed” on the first day of His ministry- the first day of the last 7 years of the prophecy. No, I did not say that all prophecies are sealed up or finished (not sure which term you intended here). 

Shabbat shalom, Charlie744.

With all due respect to Montana Marv, who will undoubtably answer for himself, I believe I can help answer a few of these questions:

Go back and read Daniel 9. GaVriy'Eel ("Gabriel") said,

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

You're right about these six purposes being accomplished in and through the Messiah Yeeshuwa`, but they would be accomplished FOR Daniel's people, the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, and FOR Daniel's holy city, Jerusalem. They have NOT yet been accomplished for his people or for his city; therefore, some of these purposes won't be fulfilled until the Messiah returns - His SECOND Advent or His SECOND Coming.

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Clearly, God gave Daniel (through Gabriel) prophecies in chapter 11 and 12 that were not completed at the time of the cross. But there are 3 times (if I remember correctly) where the terms sealed or shut up are found in Daniel. They mean different things in each chapter. 

GaVriy'Eel ("Gabriel") was not the ONLY messenger to come to Daniel, although we aren't told the names of the others, although Mikhah'Eel ("Michael") is mentioned.

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The 70 weeks of years prophecy is one continuous period with NO time gap. God specifically gave us the total external “time borders” for this prophecy 490 literal years. 

This statement is NOT true. Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") HIMSELF put the division in the 70th Seven by pronouncing them "DESOLATE" for their rejection of His Kingship! The Jews would have to learn to come back to G-D, and He would leave them without His leadership until they did. He RESCINDED His offer of the Kingdom and "stopped the Jewish clock" until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," "Welcome the Comer in the authority of YHWH." He fulfilled the FIRST half of the 70th Seven in His public offer of the Kingdom between His baptism and His crucifixion. For the last two thousand years, it has been the TASK of the Gentile believers to show God's grace to them; so, they too may be graffed into the Olive Tree of G-D`S Kingdom through His Messiah Yeeshuwa`. WE HAVE FAILED TO ACCOMPLISH THAT TASK!!!

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? GOD FORBID: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 

13 For I (Paul) speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCHES, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which (temporarily) fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off! 

23 And they (the children of Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.

26And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34).

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT 
as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' (patriarchs'; ancestors') sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (G-D doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling.). 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 EVEN SO HAVE THESE (THE JEWS, and more broadly, THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL) ALSO NOW NOT BELIEVED, THAT THROUGH YOUR MERCY THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL.

 

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

He carved this period into 3 separate time periods that would identify those “restorative and/ or destructive” events that would take place in each. 
 

Gabriel revealed those restorative events that would take place within the first timed period of 49 years. These were to be completed by the Jews - the physical elements of restoring Jerusalem, the Temple, the walls, etc. Further, they would also restore the 7 feast days as well as the sabbatical cycles (all of them). 
 

Gabriel does NOT provide any restorative or destructive events associated with the middle timed section of 434 years, but he does reveal those restorative and destructive events that will take place during the final 7 years. They can only be fulfilled by the Messiah. This was His mission. 

The 70 weeks of years prophecy was entirely dedicated to the physical and spiritual restoration of Jerusalem, the Temple, the festivals, their way of life, the people AFTER the complete destruction by Babylon. It began in 457 BC and was scheduled to end 490 years later at the end of the last week of the prophecy. And it indeed ended. Despite being cut off, the Messiah fulfilled ALL 6 of His God given requirements in 9:24-27. But it was not supposed to be an earthly kingdom, or to bring peace into the world at that time. It was an “already, but not yet” fulfillment. He set up His Kingdom which will be consummated on His return. 
 

Everything the Messiah was asked to do He accomplished. However, the ONLY remaining spiritual requirement that has NOT been fulfilled is the one that can ONLY be fulfilled by the Jews. 
 

The 4th and final Great Jubilee was supposed to end 490 years after 457 BC/ the exact same time as the beginning of the prophecy (which just one of a few things that prove the 70 weeks or 490 years are consecutive and run concurrently. Because of the cross which we will use a date of 30 AD, (3.5 years into the last 7 years), the Jews rejected their Messiah and the “counting” of the 4th Great Jubilee stopped - they were no longer in good standing with their God. Thus, at the time of the cross, the “counting” ended at 486.5 years. Meaning, unless the Jews are able to return to their God, the counting won’t continue and bring in the Messiah. 
 

This brings us to Revelation. At the end of time, God will remove the blindness of their eyes and they will recognize the One they have pierced. For the final 3.5 years (Mentioned in Revelation), they will once again go out into the world and preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus. This will complete the 4th Great Jubilee and bring in the Messiah. 
 

Daniel predicts what WILL take place, while most of Revelation presents what HAS taken place (using very different symbols than those found in Daniel. However, even in Daniel, God used very different symbols for the same kingdoms in chapters 2,7 and 8. The events prophesied in Daniel as “true end time” events are also found in Revelation.

The 3.5 years time prophecy in Revelation is the same as the remaining 3.5 years of the unfinished Great Jubilee period. 

...AND, is also the final half of the 70th Seven of Daniel 9. when the Messiah, once again, offers the Kingdom to Israel! The Jews, His OWN tribe, recognize Him right away, and through many tears of regret and remorse, accept Him as their promised King. Then, the Messiah offers the Kingdom to ALL of the tribes of Israel.

[Montana Marv]

9 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. To be candid, and sincere, I have never heard this interpretation before! 

But I have to ask you how you come to the conclusion that my interpretation eliminates the events you mentioned in Revelation. 
 

Why would there be no 7 churches? 
 

Just a comment on one of your thoughts—- Jesus came to forgive our sins and pay the price for them by the cross. Thus, if we believe in Him our sins are not seen by Him at His return. But Jesus did NOT come to remove our sin nature!

Charlie. 

 

You stated that all the 6 tasks have been completed by Jesus Christ the Messiah at his first advent.  One of those 6 was to seal up vision and prophecy.  Either vision and prophecy has been sealed up since Christs death or it hasn't been sealed up.  But since there is vision and prophecy throughout the N.T. and especially Revelation, we know that vision and prophecy have not been sealed up.

Yet, if vision and prophecy has/was sealed up at Christs first advent, then no more new vision and prophecy could occur.  That is why I said no 7 Churches in Rev (prophetic);  No Seal, Trumpet or Bowl judgments in Rev (prophetic); no 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe (prophetic)

And yes, the sin nature still exists.  Christ provided a way for Salvation for both Jew and Greek (gentile).  But Israel is a different objective in Gods framework, they are Gods Covenant People handiwork.  They were yanked out of the Tree because of unbelief.  But we know that they will be restored and grafted back into the tree. "On that Day" in Zech. 

For me the 70 Sevens in Daniel are a prophetic timeline as to when Israel is grafted back into the Tree "On that Day".  "On that Day" does not happen until the Second Coming when Israel is fully restored.  Thus at their restoration; all 6 tasks of Dan 9:24 become fulfilled, and not before.  For Israel - No more transgression, sin, wickedness, everlasting righteousness happens, vision and prophecy cease, Israel crowns their Messiah who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  This ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Charlie744]

23 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

You stated that all the 6 tasks have been completed by Jesus Christ the Messiah at his first advent.  One of those 6 was to seal up vision and prophecy.  Either vision and prophecy has been sealed up since Christs death or it hasn't been sealed up.  But since there is vision and prophecy throughout the N.T. and especially Revelation, we know that vision and prophecy have not been sealed up.

Yet, if vision and prophecy has/was sealed up at Christs first advent, then no more new vision and prophecy could occur.  That is why I said no 7 Churches in Rev (prophetic);  No Seal, Trumpet or Bowl judgments in Rev (prophetic); no 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe (prophetic)

And yes, the sin nature still exists.  Christ provided a way for Salvation for both Jew and Greek (gentile).  But Israel is a different objective in Gods framework, they are Gods Covenant People handiwork.  They were yanked out of the Tree because of unbelief.  But we know that they will be restored and grafted back into the tree. "On that Day" in Zech. 

For me the 70 Sevens in Daniel are a prophetic timeline as to when Israel is grafted back into the Tree "On that Day".  "On that Day" does not happen until the Second Coming when Israel is fully restored.  Thus at their restoration; all 6 tasks of Dan 9:24 become fulfilled, and not before.  For Israel - No more transgression, sin, wickedness, everlasting righteousness happens, vision and prophecy cease, Israel crowns their Messiah who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  This ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Ok and thank you for your response. I am awaiting the beginning of services so I can not address your post or the one from Retrobyter. 
 

Both were / are enjoyable to read and I will respond in the afternoon. 
 

Best wishes, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Charlie744.

With all due respect to Montana Marv, who will undoubtably answer for himself, I believe I can help answer a few of these questions:

Go back and read Daniel 9. GaVriy'Eel ("Gabriel") said,

Ok and I am back, and hopefully will be able to respond to your post (as well as Marv's).

 

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Daniel 9:24 (KJV)

24 "Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE AND UPON THY HOLY CITY, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

You're right about these six purposes being accomplished in and through the Messiah Yeeshuwa`, but they would be accomplished FOR Daniel's people, the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, and FOR Daniel's holy city, Jerusalem. They have NOT yet been accomplished for his people or for his city; therefore, some of these purposes won't be fulfilled until the Messiah returns - His SECOND Advent or His SECOND Coming.

Ok, I agree, these 6 were the Messiah's God given mission to restore His people and His city. But not just to bring it back to the same position it was in just prior to the Babylonian captivity. Especially, since they continued to disobey God and thus would be punished for those 70 years.

The Messiah would fulfill all 6 of the requirements in 9:24, but of course, He would be crucified. But this too was always within His plan of salvation. I see this as a two fold set of events:

1) The Messiah came for His people and His city. And He did His part. 

2) The Jews did their part up to the 69th week. It was their mission to restore the physical things - the city, Temple, the walls, the streets, etc., as well as the feast days and the sabbatical cycles. Consequently, THEY CERTAINLY DID FULFILL THEIR MISSION. THEY COMPLETED THEIR PART AND THE ONLY ELEMENT TO BE RESTORED WAS THE ARK OF THE COVENANT IN THE FORM OF THE MESSIAH.

3) The Messiah did away with the sacrificial services, the Temple, the sanctuary. THEIR MISSION WAS ALSO ENTIRELY FULFILLED AT HIS FIRST COMING. They no longer have a purpose on this earth. Today's Jews may believe a 3rd Temple will be build, but that is only because they have not accepted the Messiah. To them, it makes sense. But God's plan was fulfilled for all the spiritual elements (His mission), and the Jews had everthing ready to receive their Messiah.

4) The fact that they rejected their Messiah does not change anything that took place or was to take place at His first coming. They (the Jews) do not have to build another Temple, or reinstate the sacrificial services, etc., before they are back in standing with God. All they have to do is to accept Him as their Messiah - nothing else. And this will definitely happen.

5) As a result of their rejection, His Good News would now be preached to the Gentiles --- all they had to do was accept His Word and the Testimony of Jesus - He was the Messiah and the only true God. They did not have to construct a Temple, a city, etc. After Jesus returned to His Father, the church was made of on all Jews. They did not have to construct a Temple, sacrificial services, etc. All they had to do was accept Him as their Messiah.

6) If ANY Jew were to accept Jesus as their personal savior and Lord, the will be saved. God is not going to require ANY to build another Temple, reinstate the sacrificial services -that is why He came - to do away with them.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

GaVriy'Eel ("Gabriel") was not the ONLY messenger to come to Daniel, although we aren't told the names of the others, although Mikhah'Eel ("Michael") is mentioned.

This is true. I would ask you to look into chapter 10:13. I believe the angel that shut the mouth of the lion in chapter 6 is none other than Michael. After he assisted Gabriel, he would leave him alone once again in Persia.

 13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This statement is NOT true. Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") HIMSELF put the division in the 70th Seven by pronouncing them "DESOLATE" for their rejection of His Kingship! The Jews would have to learn to come back to G-D, and He would leave them without His leadership until they did. He RESCINDED His offer of the Kingdom and "stopped the Jewish clock" until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," "Welcome the Comer in the authority of YHWH." He fulfilled the FIRST half of the 70th Seven in His public offer of the Kingdom between His baptism and His crucifixion. For the last two thousand years, it has been the TASK of the Gentile believers to show God's grace to them; so, they too may be graffed into the Olive Tree of G-D`S Kingdom through His Messiah Yeeshuwa`. WE HAVE FAILED TO ACCOMPLISH THAT TASK!!!

 

This is so true, but I look at this a little differently:

1) The term used here, "desolate or desolation," has nothing to do with the physical elements - the city, the Temple, the sanctuary or the sacrificial services, etc., They all have fulfilled their mission despite of their rejection of their Messiah. But as a result of this rejection, the Jews would become "desolate" with their God. Now, he was far away. They became desolate from their personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah.c.

2) The purpose of the 3 part division was to identify those tasks that were necessary to fully restore Jerusalem, the city, the wall, the services, etc., as well as to reveal who's responsibility it was to restore them, and to identify the period within the 70 weeks when they would be restored. God wanted to carve up and even isolate those God given requirements or elements (9:24) that would remain unrestored until the last week, could only be restored by the Messiah and He specifically identified those 6 in 9:24. He purposefully started these prophetic verses with those 6 requirements that He needed to fulfill. There certainly are many other prophecies in the other verses (9:25-27), but they speak about those things that will take place either at the cross, or as a result of the cross. But none of them would impact / affect / alter / limit His ability to fulfill His mission (9:24).

3) C0nsequently, Jesus fulfilled all 6 of His requirements - it was scheduled for a one week (7 years) period, the last week in the 70 weeks prophecy, but He also knew He would be cut off. He fulfilled all 6 before He returned to His Father. I don't believe anyone would contend He had to be physically on earth to fulfill them...

4) Once again, your comment on the "clock" stopping is true. But this is  one of the 6 elements / requirements of the Messiah. This is entirely a requirement of the Jews. If THEY disobey Him, the clock would stop (as it stopped in Babylon during the 3rd Great Jubilee. Only when THEY were back in Jerusalem and in standing with their God did the clock begin again, and the 3rd Great Jubilee was in fact completed in 457 BC. At of course, this began the 4th Great Jubilee Cycle which was supposr to end at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. However, because the JEWS rejected their Messiah, the clock would stop at 486.5 years of the required 490 years. This means the 4th Great Jubilee is still incomplete, and thus, the Messiah can not return until it is completed. But God can not complete the 490 years - only the Jews are able to return to the Lord for the remaining 3.5 years. And when they do, then the Messiah returns.

5) As you know, the Jews rejected their Messiah at His first coming. But the Scriptures tell us at least two things:

       a) That their (Jews) eyes would be blinded and they would see Jesus as their Messiah. This can also been seen in chapter 10 of Daniel (symbolically) when Daniel could not possibly understand or recognize how his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would come to the earth in the form of a man and be crucified. 

       b) And this brings us to the second point - the JEWS HAD NO CHOICE IN THIS!!!!!! It was God's decision to blind their eyes from the foundation of the world. This was a "divine" action by God within His plan of salvation. 

       c) This also means that when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (only God knows when), He will once again bring in a "divine" action and remove the blindness of their eyes. They will then recognize the One they have pierced. I certainly understand there are many, many Jews that have accepted Jesus as their Messiah, but whether this "removal of their blindness" takes place over a certain period of time, or comes about with a massive and immediate "unblindness" only God knows. I think it will be both - at a certain appointed time, He will make their eyes open in mass, if you will, to reveal how He fulfills this prophecy without anyone not noticing it is a "divine" type event.

6) I don't believe God "rescinded" His offer. I think the offer was and is always  on the table. Many Jews have accepted His offer since the cross.

7) If Jesus did not fulfill His 6 requirements at His first coming, then NO ONE will be saved - not Jew or Gentile. They have relied on Him completing His 6 requirements no less than the Jews. And there will be billions of both Jews and Gentils that will refuse to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior - everyone since the cross has the same opportunity to decide. There is NO man mande event needed to take place before they can be saved.

8) I certainly hope that there are enough Christians out there that have the God given blessings to show the Jews that their Messiah is Jesus. That as result of their changes in their life, they have become better people, true followers of God, but there are billions of Christians in name only. Consequentely, we are really going to need God's help in showing the Jews that Jesus is their Messiah (if they were to look at my life, I am quite sure there is a problem there - we really need a "Damascus" experience to bring them back to their God.

9) To be candid, I think it might be easier to have the Jews recognize Jesus as their Messiah than the 1.3 BILLION Roman Catholics that are convinced in the infallibility of the papacy, forgiveness of sins, and that the only way to salvation is through the RCC. They seem like an immovable object and do not realize just how far the RCC is from the word of God.

 

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should (permanently) fall? GOD FORBID: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 

13 For I (Paul) speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, WHAT SHALL THE RECEIVING OF THEM BE, BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if SOME of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in AMONG THEM, and WITH THEM partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches! But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For IF GOD SPARED NOT THE NATURAL BRANCHES, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which (temporarily) fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off! 

23 And they (the children of Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the NATURAL BRANCHES, be graffed into THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.

26And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34).

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT 
as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' (patriarchs'; ancestors') sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (G-D doesn't renege on His gifts or His calling.). 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 EVEN SO HAVE THESE (THE JEWS, and more broadly, THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL) ALSO NOW NOT BELIEVED, THAT THROUGH YOUR MERCY THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN MERCY. 32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON ALL.

 

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...AND, is also the final half of the 70th Seven of Daniel 9. when the Messiah, once again, offers the Kingdom to Israel! The Jews, His OWN tribe, recognize Him right away, and through many tears of regret and remorse, accept Him as their promised King. Then, the Messiah offers the Kingdom to ALL of the tribes of Israel.

Again, the Messiah fulfilled all 6 of His requirements - consequently, the "offer" has been made to both Jew and Gentile. It is available to all mankind. There is no "offer 2.0." God has done His perfect work, and now each one (whether Jew of Gentile) must make their decision. 

The ONLY remaining event that MUST be completed before the Messiah returns is the completion of the 4th Great Jubilee. And God has already placed that in His plan of Salvation. After He removes their blindness, they will mourn in sackcloth and then go out into the world as Paul did and preach the Messiah, Jesus. This will last for 3.5 years (in Revelation) and then the Messiah. 

But this "offer" that you speak of... it was "offered" at the cross for all. The Jews rejected it and it was then offered to the Gentils - same offer, and they have the exact same decision to make. And as you know, there are billions who have rejected His offer since the cross.

But God will restore the Jews sight and bring them back into His fold. He will never abandone His people. All of this was in His plan from the foundation of the world.

Best wishes always, Charlie

 

 

[douggg]

The 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 corresponds to the 7 years following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29.

----------------------------------

Immediately following Gog/Magog, the prince who shall come (the little horn person) comes into the middle east and Israel with his EU army, Daniel 8:9.   The Jews will think he is their long awaited messiah, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel - making him the Antichrist.

As the newly anointed King of Israel, he will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years (as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel).    The confirmation process is to have the law of Moses read from the place of God's choosing (the temple mount) to the nation Israel.

That will begin the 7 years, and false messiah age of the world saying "peace and safety" of 1Thessalonians5.

About 3 years into the 7 years, the Antichrist will commit the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:12-13, shattering the peace and safety of the false messianic age, because it will reveal him as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all.    When he sits in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4.    Ending his time as the King of Israel, Antichrist.

God will have the revealed man of sin killed for his audacious act, by having him assassinated.   Ezekiel 28:1-10.

The slain man of sin's soul will go to hell, where he will be mocked, but God does not allow him to have the honor of being buried in an ornate tomb, and returns his soul to his lifeless body.

Sitting up in his casket, the world will be amazed, and the person will claim to have overcomed death.   But it will be the strong delusion that God sends to them who believe his original claim of having achieved God-hood.

At that time, the disembodied spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit and possess him.    At that point, he becomes the beast.   The beast-king of Revelation 13.   And Revelation 17:11.

The false prophet has a statue image made of him and places it on the temple mount, the abomination of desolation.   1335 days before Jesus Returns, Daniel 12:11-12.

In the remaining 42 months, the person will reign and issue edicts for the rest of the world to follow.    His kingdom will be that of the West, primarily as the dictator of the EU - kingdom of the ten kings of Daniel 7, which he will initially appear out of.   Revelation 17:17,  as they hand their EU kingdom over to him.

To conclude the 7 years, Jesus Returns, and executes judgement on them gathered to make war on Him, Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

The beast-king and the false prophet at that time will be cast alive into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20.

Edited November 25, 2023 by douggg

[Charlie744]

22 minutes ago, douggg said:

The 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 corresponds to the 7 years following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years, then Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29.

----------------------------------

Immediately following Gog/Magog, the prince who shall come (the little horn person) comes into the middle east and Israel with his EU army, Daniel 8:9.   The Jews will think he is their long awaited messiah, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel - making him the Antichrist.

As the newly anointed King of Israel, he will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years (as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel).    The confirmation process is to have the law of Moses read from the place of God's choosing (the temple mount) to the nation Israel.

That will begin the 7 years, and false messiah age of the world saying "peace and safety" of 1Thessalonians5.

About 3 years into the 7 years, the Antichrist will commit the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:12-13, shattering the peace and safety of the false messianic age, because it will reveal him as the man of sin, and not the messiah after all.    When he sits in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:4.    Ending his time as the King of Israel, Antichrist.

God will have the revealed man of sin killed for his audacious act, by having him assassinated.   Ezekiel 28:1-10.

The slain man of sin's soul will go to hell, where he will be mocked, but God does not allow him to have the honor of being buried in an ornate tomb, and returns his soul to his lifeless body.

Sitting up in his casket, the world will be amazed, and the person will claim to have overcomes death.   But it will be the strong delusion that God sends to them who believe his original claim of having achieved God-hood.

At that time, the disembodied spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit and possess him.    At that point, he becomes the beast.   The beast-king of Revelation 13.   And Revelation 17:11.

The false prophet has a statue image made of him and places it on the temple mount, the abomination of desolation.   1335 days before Jesus Returns, Daniel 12:11-12.

In the remaining 42 months, the person will reign and issue edicts for the rest of the world to follow.    His kingdom will be that of the West, primarily as the dictator of the EU - kingdom of the ten kings of Daniel 7, which he will initially appear out of.   Revelation 17:17,  as they hand their EU kingdom over to him.

To conclude the 7 years, Jesus Returns, and executes judgement on them gathered to make war on Him, Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20, corresponding to Revelation 19:17-18.

The beast-king and the false prophet at that time will be cast alive into the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20.

First, let me mention that your interpretation or others with a little variation ARE the “accepted interpretations” for the 7 years and the end times. 
 

But all of this was generated by the Jesuits in the 16th century AD. And it has indeed taken a life of its own. 
 

But the 7 final years or the last week of Daniel’s prophecy belongs to the Messiah. The book of Daniel is all about the (then) coming Messiah and Hus plan of salvation for His people and His city. 
There is absolutely nothing in the book of Daniel that speaks to, about or even refers to a mythical, figure as the “anti-Christ.” 
 

Instead, Gabriel revealed so much information about the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. This is the one (papacy) that will take over His church and speak against God, against His people, against His saints. He will disobey His 10 Commandments and change the 4th Commandment. He will claim divinity, infallibility, God on earth, and so much more. He has been at this for 1500 years. 
 

But the last week of the prophecy is all about the Messiah. He fulfilled the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31:41-34. He was “cut off” in the middle of the week. By the way, the Covenant IS NOT A 7 YEAR COVENANT! It is the New Covenant that will be fulfilled DURING the last 7 years or the final week of the prophecy.