Israel Is The Church

[Walter and Deborah]

Tuesday 12-5-23 3rd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 20 5784, 74th. Fall Day

 

Israel Is the Church (wor.org)

 

The Relationship between Israel and the Church - The Gospel Coalition

 

Love, Walter And Debbie

[Mr. M]

2 hours ago, Walter and Deborah said:

Tuesday 12-5-23 3rd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 20 5784, 74th. Fall Day

 

Israel Is the Church (wor.org)

 

The Relationship between Israel and the Church - The Gospel Coalition

 

Love, Walter And Debbie

Both exhaustive studies. Paul had me at Romans 11.

[TheBlade]

Hey WD  heard this read about it over the years. Not going to say anymore since you make this statement as fact when its not could be they you said it. I read the link. If you start to talk about it "Replacement Theology" gets tossed in so.. best to say nothing. I know theres this vine and many many branches. I know where the Father is there is no Jew no gentile just one body. So I focus on Christ and "do you know Him?"

[Walter and Deborah]

3 minutes ago, TheBlade said:

Hey WD  heard this read about it over the years. Not going to say anymore since you make this statement as fact when its not could be they you said it. I read the link. If you start to talk about it "Replacement Theology" gets tossed in so.. best to say nothing. I know theres this vine and many many branches. I know where the Father is there is no Jew no gentile just one body. So I focus on Christ and "do you know Him?"

Thank you Dan

Love, Walter

[AdHoc]

2 hours ago, Walter and Deborah said:

Tuesday 12-5-23 3rd. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 20 5784, 74th. Fall Day

 

Israel Is the Church (wor.org)

 

The Relationship between Israel and the Church - The Gospel Coalition

 

Love, Walter And Debbie

I answer only the title.

The word "Church" is unfortunate. The Greek is "Ekklesia" which means "Assembly of the select ones". It is used properly, but obscurely, for
1. Israel in the wilderness (Act.7:38)
2. The heathen political organ of Ephesus (Act.19:39)
3. The Assembly, universal and local, of believers in Jesus Christ

Anyone who is familiar with the Bible will have noticed that ALL nations came from Adam via Noah. At Babel, God gave different languages and this caused a division among men. The Bible calls them the Nations or the Gentiles. To put His plan of recovery into operation, God called out a Syrian idol-worshiper and chose one of the families that he produced to be a special Natuon among Nations. Israel has its origin in Adam via Noah via Abraham via Jacob. God made Israel His special people, and they had the privilege of hosting God in a special Tent, and had special Laws to make them ritually clean to host a holy God. In God's dealings with men He had the Nations and the Nation of Israel.

Some one and a half Millennia later, God sent His Son, via a virgin birth to an Israelite woman. Israel, from whom came Jesus Christ "according to the FLESH", denied, rejected and murdered this Jesus. Jesus then turned to all men with His plan of recovery and took "OUT OF THE TWO" above, and created a THIRD called the NEW MAN (Eph.2:15). Their origin was from the Holy Spirit. The grammar and history show that there were, and are, THREE distinct Peoples on earth. They are commonly called;
1. the Nations
2. the Nation of Israel
3. the Church

According to the Law of KINDS that God set forth in Genesis 1:11-12, they are THREE DIFFERENT KINDS becaus the come from THREE DIFFERENT SEEDS. The Church could NOT be Israel because they were born of the Holy Spirit - "INCORRUPTIBLE SEED" (1st Pet.1:23). The Nations come from Adam AFTER the fall so they are offspring, or seed, of a corrupted person. The Nation of Israel came from the same man and though they come from a chosen seed - Abraham, they are still "seed of corrupted man".

Similarly, the grammar and Mathematics of the Bible indicate THREE DISTINCT PEOPLES.
- The Romans ruled Israel and destroyed them as a Nation. That gives TWO
- Israel were destroyed by Assyria. That gives TWO
- Israel rejected Jesus and the Church enbraced Jesus. That Gives TWO
- Israel, while under Roman rule, killed Church members. That gives THREE
- Israel will be recovered when the Church is complete and Jesus Christ has defeated the Gentiles (Act.15:14-16). That gives THREE
- On the New Earth there will be a City. The Walls are the Church, the Gates are Israel, and the Nations dwell outside of this City. That gives THREE

A tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom (Judg.9, Dan.4, Ezek.31). Christ's Kingdom is made of "natural branches" which remain natural branches when they were in the olive Tree, when they were cut out AND when they are grafted in. The Root is HOLY - a designation given only to Jesus. And the Church, grafted in but in danger of being cut out, are called "the wild branches" before being grafted in, while grafted in and when in danger of being cut out. That gives TWO different branches that maintain their difference throughout.

In the book of Acts Israelites persecuted and murdered Christians. Today, Israelites vehemently reject Jesus while th Church cheerfully embraces Him.

In the book of Galatians a consistent and well defined CONTRAST is made between Israel and the Church.

The nearest that Israel gets to the Church is that BOTH (which gives TWO) have the same mother - New Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26)

There is not one scripture that joins Israel and the Church.

There is no evidence to support the title of this thread. The evidence refutes it.

 

[Mr. M]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

3. The Assembly, universal and local, of believers in Jesus Christ

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. 

I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.

While the Ecclesia has no nationality or ethnicity,

they are grafted into a tribe within Israel.

Romans 11:

16 For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; 

and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you,

being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them,

and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 

18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, 

remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Isaiah 11:

1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

10 And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.

Judah is the reigning tribe of Israel, of which those

who will reign with Christ have been grafted in.

Psalms 76:

1 In Judah God is known;
His name is great in Israel.
2 In Salem also is His tabernacle,
And His dwelling place in Zion.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah,

though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,

yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;

whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

The Lord has dominion over the Commonwealth of Israel

114:

1 When Israel went out of Egypt,
The house of Jacob from a people of strange language,
2 Judah became His sanctuary,
And Israel His dominion.

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The word "Church" is unfortunate. The Greek is "Ekklesia" which means "Assembly of the select ones". It is used properly, but obscurely, for...

3. The Assembly, universal and local, of believers in Jesus Christ

Ecclesia translated Church over 100 times in the NT

Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, 

and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne.

While assembly is a valid, and possibly most accurate way to translate

ecclesia, most Christians understand the word "church", exactly how 

you have defined it. Until you can convince the English speaking church

to use Assembly, Ecclesia will remain Church. Spiritually, in regards to

the Gentiles, this is the Israel of God. Paul speaks of Gentiles being grafted in,

this places them into the ruling tribe of Judah. Paul self-identified as a 

member of the tribe of Benjamin, but he also understood that he was not

a part of the Elect because of that tribal affiliation, but by faith in Christ alone.

The only point of separation within Israel is between believer and unbeliever.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Mr. M

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. 

I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.

While the Ecclesia has no nationality or ethnicity,

they are grafted into a tribe within Israel.

Romans 11:

16 For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; 

and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you,

being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them,

and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 

18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, 

remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Thanks for your reply.  I cannot see an argument here. We agree then in what I said, except if you re implying that Judah is the Root. If you place Judah as the Root of the  the Tree, you must show how a Tribe of Israel is holy when they did more evil than their brothers in the north, where carried away to Babylon for Law breaking and who murdered the Messiah, to be destroyed and dispersed in 70 AD. I'm sure you don't mean this.

Next, you gave scriptures from the Old Testament to answer claims about the Church. But the Church is not revealed to the prophets of old (Eph.3:1-11). I think that any doctrine concerning the Church should come from, Jesus, the Apostles who were trained by Him, and/or Paul who received special revelation.

It is your right not to address my arguments, but you let them stand. I'll do the same - let them stand unanswered. Hre it is again;
- There is not a single scripture that joins Israel and the Church.
- Our Lord Jesus is HEAD of the Church but KING of Israel
- The Church is Christ's BODY. Israel is a NATION under chastisement
- The Church has its ORIGIN in the Holy Spirit and is a "spiritual House". Israel is a physical Nation
- The Kingdom of Heaven is REMOVED from Israel (Matt.21:43)
- Israel will be restored NATIONALLY when the Church is finished (Act.15:14-16)
- According to the scripture you gave from Romans 11, Israel is BRANCHES, and they have been cut out.
- Romans 11:18 says the Root SUPPORTS the Branches when the are grafted in. But Israel is cut out. They are temporarily adrift from the Root, they are removed from the fatness, they bear no fruit, their Nation is removed for the duration of the Church age, they deny their King, they call for Caesar to be their king, they still break the Law, they are blind till the end, they refuse the Church, they refuse their Messiah, ... and so on and on.

The Olive Tree is a Parable. The Root is holy and is the supply. Neither Israel nor the Church is intrinsically holy. They are made holy by the POSITION God gives them. Israel are Branches - not the root. The language is plain. The Church are Branches. Israel is cut out and receives no support or supply. They remain blind till the Gentiles are full. The Church, as wild branches, are grafted into the Root. They are there tentatively because they are warned that they could be cut out. They receive Support and Supply from the Root. The Root makes them holy.

To make the Church eligible for the Kingdom of Heaven they need another and additional birth (Jn.3:3-5). This birth is by faith (Jn.1:12-13). This birth makes the Church royal. Israel refuse to believe, refuse the Giver of rebirth, and kill the Prince of LIFE. To make the Church "seed of Abraham" and heirs to the "world" (Rom.4:13) we must be Christ's (Gal.3:29). To make us Heirs of the promises made to Abraham, God adopts the Gentiles - a legal maneuver to include a man into another's will. To make them partakers of the divine nature he causes the rebirth - He gives power to become sons of God. To make them heirs to the kingdom he inserts them into - NOT ISRAEL; but the "Commonwealth of Israel". That is, they benefit from the legal framework of trade privileges without taking citizenship.

God makes the Church the kings of the next age, and makes Israel servant of Emmanuel. God achives all this WITHOUT making Gentiles into Israelites.

 

[Mr. M]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your reply.  I cannot see an argument here. We agree then in what I said, except if you re implying that Judah is the Root. If you place Judah as the Root of the  the Tree, you must show how a Tribe of Israel is holy when they did more evil than their brothers in the north, where carried away to Babylon for Law breaking and who murdered the Messiah, to be destroyed and dispersed in 70 AD. I'm sure you don't mean this.

Yes, I am sure that I did not. In fact for the most part, I let the scriptures speak for themselves without implying anything. 

13 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. 

I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.

The root is Jesus. Those in Christ are branches. Those branches are supported by the root, not the other way around. There is no tribe among the Elect described as holy, as Levi was set aside to serve the Tabernacle, and the Lord was their inheritance. By accepting that the Lord is both the Root and Offspring of David, there must also be an acknowledgement that this places those branches as a part of Judah.

Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, Do not weep.

Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David,

has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.

All those in Christ, the Elect, are a part of that tribe, being

branches supported by that One Root.

A Royal Priesthood

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah,

of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 

15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek,

there arises another priest 16 who has come,

not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,

but according to the power of an endless life. 

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Next, you gave scriptures from the Old Testament to answer claims about the Church. But the Church is not revealed to the prophets of old (Eph.3:1-11). I think that any doctrine concerning the Church should come from, Jesus, the Apostles who were trained by Him, and/or Paul who received special revelation.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time

the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,

when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,

and the glory that should follow.

That Christ would bring salvation to the Gentiles is spoken

in volumes throughout Isaiah 40-66 and the Psalms. The Church

is now the Chosen, the Elect which is identified as Israel. Initially,

the name given to Jacob, but now received by Promise as Isaac. 

Israel and the Church are also united under the title Yeshurun, 

the Upright Ones. Perhaps another study

It would take hours to compile an exhaustive study, which is what

both of the links provided by @Walter and Deborah set out to do.

I understand that our conversation is to some extent carrying over

from another thread. But this was the choice you made

17 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I answer only the title.

The bottom line for me is that we are all One in Christ, 

And Christ is the Holy One of Israel.

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Yes, I am sure that I did not. In fact for the most part, I let the scriptures speak for themselves without implying anything. 

The root is Jesus. Those in Christ are branches. Those branches are supported by the root, not the other way around. There is no tribe among the Elect described as holy, as Levi was set aside to serve the Tabernacle, and the Lord was their inheritance. By accepting that the Lord is both the Root and Offspring of David, there must also be an acknowledgement that this places those branches as a part of Judah.

Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, Do not weep.

Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David,

has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.

All those in Christ, the Elect, are a part of that tribe, being

branches supported by that One Root.

A Royal Priesthood

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah,

of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 

15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek,

there arises another priest 16 who has come,

not according to the law of a fleshly commandment,

but according to the power of an endless life. 

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time

the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,

when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ,

and the glory that should follow.

That Christ would bring salvation to the Gentiles is spoken

in volumes throughout Isaiah 40-66 and the Psalms. The Church

is now the Chosen, the Elect which is identified as Israel. Initially,

the name given to Jacob, but now received by Promise as Isaac. 

Israel and the Church are also united under the title Yeshurun, 

the Upright Ones. Perhaps another study

It would take hours to compile an exhaustive study, which is what

both of the links provided by @Walter and Deborah set out to do.

I understand that our conversation is to some extent carrying over

from another thread. But this was the choice you made

The bottom line for me is that we are all One in Christ, 

And Christ is the Holy One of Israel.

Thank you for your reply, and the exchange of ideas. Go well.

[Michael37]

19 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Ecclesia translated Church over 100 times in the NT

That should be mistranslated.

Wycliff went with congregation for ekklesia, and when summoned to explain why he didn't conform to papal pressure and go with church he said to many that meant the hierarchy of clergy.