Rev 16:18 suggests the earth is much older than Adam/Eve

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Your only defense is Ex 20:11 and I refuted that by the FACT that Moses used "asah" for "made" rather than "bara" for create as in Gen 1:1.

Exodus 20:11 was written by God.

If you actually read Genesis, you see God using the elements of the sea and the earth to create life.  He had already spoken these elements into existence.  They were His to use as He desired. 

[Mozart's Starling]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

Exodus 20:11 was written by God.

If you actually read Genesis, you see God using the elements of the sea and the earth to create life.  He had already spoken these elements into existence.  They were His to use as He desired. 

And to point out the obvious the book is named GENESIS. Why start with the recreation of some mysterious pre existing world at the beginning of your story? lol It makes about as much sense as God using "days" to mean "any number of years that mosts align with modern day science on the age of the earth" I guess (not that free grace has made that argument, just that I have seen that argument by those who push old earth before).

Edited March 15, 2024 by Mozart's Starling

[FreeGrace]

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

Your only defense is Ex 20:11 and I refuted that by the FACT that Moses used "asah" for "made" rather than "bara" for create as in Gen 1:1.

Exodus 20:11 was written by God.

Through the hand of Moses, who wrote the entire Pentateuch.  

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

If you actually read Genesis, you see God using the elements of the sea and the earth to create life.

Rather, I see God speaking things into existence.  Don't you know what "let there be..." means?

9 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

  He had already spoken these elements into existence.  They were His to use as He desired. 

What a silly theory.  He spoke everything into existence, and didn't use 'stages' as you opine.  The entire universe was created as is in Gen 1:1.  And the words that you ignore, tohu wabohu, show that the earth was a mess.  

Since God doesn't create messes, it is OBVIOUS to everyone with an open mind that the earth became that way.

And you haven't proved a thing regarding your theory.  Zero.

If you ever get some facts that support that theory, let me know.

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Through the hand of Moses, who wrote the entire Pentateuch.  

FYI, God engraved the Ten Commandments onto stone tablets and gave them to Moses.

[BeyondET]

Earth in amorphous clear.

Edited March 16, 2024 by BeyondET

[RV_Wizard]

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Since God doesn't create messes, it is OBVIOUS to everyone with an open mind that the earth became that way.

Genesis 1:9-10  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

So, having already established that there was no sun, moon or stars on this planet which you claim fell into destruction, and after you have posted again and again that the "restoration" began with verse 2, let me now remind you that land did not appear until day three.  No land to be destroyed and re-constructed; it didn't exist before day three.

So in this make believe pre-Genesis world of yours, there was no light, no heat, no other stars, and no dry land.  How, then, did this world exist for billions of years, giving life to dinosaurs and Geico representatives, only to become so destroyed that there wasn't even any land remaining?  The creation began with verse 2, and land first appears on day three, verse nine.

Clearly, the only reason to torture the verbiage of the Bible is to make room for an ancient earth that never existed.  

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

Through the hand of Moses, who wrote the entire Pentateuch.  

FYI, God engraved the Ten Commandments onto stone tablets and gave them to Moses.

Oh, my!!  When did the subject CHANGE to the 10 commandments??

Why do you keep bringing up so totally unrelated things, and irrelevant things.

I mentioned the Pentateuch, which was penned by Moses and you focus on tablets that were written by God.  

Again, you aren't even trying to focus on the subject.  You're desperate to shift focus off the fact that you really know what tohu wabohu describes, and you just don't want to hear it, because it refutes your theory.

[FreeGrace]

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

Since God doesn't create messes, it is OBVIOUS to everyone with an open mind that the earth became that way.

Genesis 1:9-10  And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Yes, the earth was so messed up God had to make a lot of changes to the wasteland/mess/chaos etc.  

In no way can tohu wabohu EVER be used for God's perfect creative skills.

That anyone would even try to make that claim is beyond me.

You've been given all the facts needed, but you just don't want the facts.

Where are your facts?  Nowhere to be seen.

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

So, having already established that there was no sun, moon or stars on this planet which you claim fell into destruction, and after you have posted again and again that the "restoration" began with verse 2, let me now remind you that land did not appear until day three.

That's obviously how BAD the destruction was.

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  No land to be destroyed and re-constructed; it didn't exist before day three.

Please read the text more carefully.  That "land did not appear until day three" DOESN'T mean it didn't exist, it means it wasn't visible.

But your extreme bias will not allow you to see the obvious.  

I've had a very logical and reasonable answer to EVERY ONE of your "defenses" and you have NO evidence for a young earth.

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

So in this make believe pre-Genesis world of yours, there was no light, no heat, no other stars, and no dry land.

Actually, it's now "pre-Genesis".  It is IN Genesis, but you have no objectivity at all.

The earth/universe BECAME that way.

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  How, then, did this world exist for billions of years, giving life to dinosaurs and Geico representatives, only to become so destroyed that there wasn't even any land remaining? 

It is impossible to explain anything to anyone who is so subjective, biased and keeps their eyes/ears closed tightly to any fact.

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

  The creation began with verse 2, and land first appears on day three, verse nine.

Unsubstantiated.  That is where the restoration began.  Creation WAS in v.1, obvious for EVERYONE to see and read.

14 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

Clearly, the only reason to torture the verbiage of the Bible is to make room for an ancient earth that never existed.  

No, I have shown what the words in v.2 mean and are translated elsewhere in the Bible, and what is CLEAR and OBVIOUS is that tohu wabohu cannot refer to original creation in any way.

And that crumbles your theory.  

But you're free to believe whatever you want.  I choose to believe what the Bible SAYS, not what poorly written translations say.

[RV_Wizard]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I mentioned the Pentateuch, which was penned by Moses and you focus on tablets that were written by God.  

God said He created the heavens and the earth in six days, and you claim He didn't.  Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but God inscribed the commandments.

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

FreeGrace said: 

I mentioned the Pentateuch, which was penned by Moses and you focus on tablets that were written by God. 

God said He created the heavens and the earth in six days

Again, Ex 20:11 doesn't say "created", which is bara in the Hebrew.  The verse, written by Moses, the same one who wrote Genesis, wrote in Ex 20:11 that "in 6 days, God MADE (asah) the heavens and earth".

You need to accept the FACT that Ex 20:11 isn't about creation, but the restoration.

The earth was RE-MADE in 6 days, from existing materials.  Gen 1:1 is original creation, where God CREATED (bara, not asah) the heavens and earth.  ex nihilo, or out of nothing, because He spoke it all into existence, in a moment.

50 minutes ago, RV_Wizard said:

and you claim He didn't.  Moses wrote the Pentateuch, but God inscribed the commandments.

I wasn't referring to the tablets that God literally wrote on.  Sheeeeeesh.