War In Heaven, War In Space

[Mr. M]

Revelation 12:

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon

having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 

4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, 

to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God,

that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;

and the dragon and his angels fought, 

8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, 

who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Must war in the heavenlies inevitably be fought in battles on earth? If Satan was cast

to the earth, is that not his plan, to steal, kill and destroy on earth?

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the dragon could manifest as an anti-satellite

weapon of China, land of the dragon, designed to knock out enough satellites

to cripple US and UK abilities to coordinate global communications and warfare?

 

"His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth."

Will this not play out for all the world to witness, until the Lord comes?

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west,

so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him,

even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

Even so, Amen.

[Dennis1209]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:50 AM, Mr. M said:

Revelation 12:

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon

having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 

4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, 

to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God,

that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon;

and the dragon and his angels fought, 

8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, 

who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Must war in the heavenlies inevitably be fought in battles on earth? If Satan was cast

to the earth, is that not his plan, to steal, kill and destroy on earth?

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the dragon could manifest as an anti-satellite

weapon of China, land of the dragon, designed to knock out enough satellites

to cripple US and UK abilities to coordinate global communications and warfare?

 

"His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth."

Will this not play out for all the world to witness, until the Lord comes?

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west,

so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him,

even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

Even so, Amen.

I like to view this topic from a historical and present perspective:

Daniel 12:4 (KJV) But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The inspired Word was written using symbology to withstand the test of time so all ages and generations could comprehend the meaning. Only today, in the Book of Revelation, we see implied hyper technology everywhere.

We need not guess how everyone from the Anti-Nicene Fathers, Augustine, Luther, Matthew Henry, and Larkin, through the ages, interpreted the Book of Revelation, as we have their views in writing.

Naturally, we cannot, but imagine if we could go back in time to debate these fine theologians and scholars on the theology and technology of today and how it fits portions of the Apocalypse; where would you start?

Being a visual person, I look at charts and graphs. On a linear graph, knowledge and technology appear to have doubled about every century. Just a minute gradual upward tick through millennia. Until the start of the Industrial Revolution, it began a 90-degree bend upward.

Today, that line is entirely vertical, with knowledge doubling every few weeks, or so they say. What other generation has seen such startling advances, understanding them and their implications and applications on biblical prophecy?

Yes, it is no secret war has arrived in the 2^nd Heaven with the creation of global space forces, weapons of war, control, spying, and intelligence.

Revelation 13:14 (KJV) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

It appears man and technology create the Image of the Beast. With the advancements we are allowed to see, Sophia the robot, artificial intelligence, hyper computing, miniature drones, nanotechnology, lasers, holograms, and plugged into the system. This Image could be built by man and technology today.

To say we live in interesting prophetic times would be an understatement.

[Mr. M]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

To say we live in interesting prophetic times would be an understatement.

We see a "heavenly vision"

On 12/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, Mr. M said:

And another sign appeared in heaven:

 

On 12/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, Mr. M said:

 And war broke out in heaven:

As well 'stars' falling to the earth...

On 12/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, Mr. M said:

 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

And what I observe is interpreters wrestling with and attempting 

to separate the spiritual/heavenly from the natural/earthly, 

rather than understand the superimposition;

"on earth, as it is in heaven", and that we discern,

not with our eyes...

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen,

but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen

are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

But we discern by what we hear, with our heart and ears...

Ezekiel 3:10 Moreover He said to me: “Son of man, receive into your heart

all My words that I speak to you, and hear with your ears. 

1 Co 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches

but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

This is not mysticism, but a simple discipline...

Listening to preaching/teaching or reading aloud,

while listening to the Voice of the Spirit in your heart,

with your renewed spirit.

So many rely on reading commentaries.

The Holy Spirit IS the commentary. "I Am that I Am".

This is why Paul states:

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom

did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message

preached to save those who believe.

Preaching establishes an environment to open your heart to the Lord.

Even if the preacher slips into the flesh and speaks error, the Holy Spirit

provides correction in righteousness. Preaching under the Anointing

should bring forth perfect agreement, between two witnesses, 

and the confidence for an overcoming faith.

[luigi]

I believe the kingdom of heaven to be the same as the kingdom of God, which is spiritual according to Luke 17:21. War in heaven in Revelation 12:7, is therefore a spiritual warfare within this Michael individual in Revelation 12:7.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

[WilliamL]

On 12/27/2023 at 7:50 AM, Mr. M said:

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the dragon could manifest as an anti-satellite weapon of China...

I don't see any evidence anywhere that Satan ever manifested, or could manifest, as an inanimate physical object.

[Mr. M]

36 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

I don't see any evidence anywhere that Satan ever manifested, or could manifest, as an inanimate physical object.

That's not what I meant. What John witnesses in his vision. One third of the 'stars' falling to earth. An anti-satellite weapon of China cleverly and appropriately named the dragon. China is known as the land thereof, and a godless nation. Just a little imagine dragon.

[WilliamL]

17 hours ago, Mr. M said:

That's not what I meant. What John witnesses in his vision. One third of the 'stars' falling to earth. An anti-satellite weapon of China cleverly and appropriately named the dragon. China is known as the land thereof, and a godless nation. Just a little imagine dragon.

Yes, China and the dragon are pals. Yes, China has and will likely use anti-satellite weapons. However, I just don't see these things as being what Rev. 12 is talking about. The heaven of Rev. 12 is a spiritual realm, not a natural one. IMHO.

[Mr. M]

33 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, China and the dragon are pals. Yes, China has and will likely use anti-satellite weapons. However, I just don't see these things as being what Rev. 12 is talking about. The heaven of Rev. 12 is a spiritual realm, not a natural one. IMHO.

Again, I agree to the nature of the heavenly vision, Did you read my post on the superimposition? If there is a heavenly event, there is an earthly manifestation, as the title of the thread implies, otherwise, what is the point?

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Mr. M said:

If there is a heavenly event, there is an earthly manifestation, as the title of the thread implies, otherwise, what is the point?

Jesus' coming to receive the scroll from God in Rev. 5 shows no earthly counterpart that I know of, for starters. Neither do the Rev. 7  saints coming out of the great tribulation, to stand before God's heavenly throne, for another. So I don't see what you say is a universal principal.

[Mr. M]

7 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Jesus' coming to receive the scroll from God in Rev. 5 shows no earthly counterpart that I know of, for starters.

Revelation 5:

3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth

was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.

6..."the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth".

8..."which are the prayers of the saints"

10..."And we shall reign on the earth.”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth

and under the earth and such as are in the sea,

and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

25 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Neither do the Rev. 7  saints coming out of the great tribulation, to stand before God's heavenly throne, for another. So I don't see what you say is a universal principal.

Somehow I see heaven and earth equally involved...

Revelation 7:1 After these things I saw four angels standing

at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, 

that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.

3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed

the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,

“Who are these arrayed in white robes,

and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,

and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

16 *They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; 

the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 

17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd

them and lead them to living fountains of waters*. 

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

*In heaven, or on earth???

But if we could return to the topic, I remain unsure how a war

can be fought in heaven and not impact earth. Why even report it?

How do you spiritual-ize, "stars falling to the earth" in verse 3?

We are later told:

9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old,

called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; 

he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I understand the stars in Jesus' hand in chapter 1 are explained

to be angel/messengers. But how can the stars being cast to the earth

in verse 3 by the tail of the dragon be angels of rebellion in verse 9? 

Can Satan cast out Satan???

I continue to suggest that John is viewing events impacting

(on) earth, and (as it is in) heaven. This is the superimposition.

I have more to say on "visions of God", but enough for 1 post.