Dennis1209 Posted January 27 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 349 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,516 Content Per Day: 2.69 Reputation: 5,415 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27 I started reading through the Bible again, beginning with Genesis, intending to avoid getting sidetracked like I usually do, going down rabbit trails and studying something else. A sad thought emerged after going through Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Having two sons and one daughter, I have all granddaughters save a grandson born to my daughter. My family surname lineage has now ceased to exist after my sons. But this is not what I would like to discuss. I want to discuss our children's inheritance, rights, and privileges: our firstborn male sons. Like today, the patriarchs and their wives had their favorite sons. Jacob usurped Esau's birthright as firstborn. The Hebrews-Jews had customs and inheritance rights bestowed on their children. Today, in our American culture, we would probably call Biblical hierarchy and firstborn privileges favoritism. As I mentioned, this seems to be a Hebrew-Jewish tradition and custom, perhaps not applicable to the Gentile, but I am not sure. It appears to have been an American custom until recent historical times with the firstborn male. Thus far, I have found no Biblical precedence for the Gentile to emulate this tradition and custom. I have always strived to love all my children equally, but it seems you love them differently and for different reasons. I was and still am accused of favoritism toward my daughter. My sons, like myself, barely got by in school because their priorities were elsewhere. My daughter was a straight "A" student from grade school through college. She was rewarded for her dedication and achievements; my sons took offense to that. To my knowledge, the firstborn male still seems to be a tradition. I requested my firstborn son to be the administrator of my will and have power of attorney. There is no favoritism in my will; each will receive a third of my estate. So, with everything stated above comes my question: Did Gentiles adopt these Hebrew customs and practices, and is it Biblical for Gentiles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted January 27 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,069 Content Per Day: 3.29 Reputation: 1,466 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27 13 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said: I started reading through the Bible again, beginning with Genesis, intending to avoid getting sidetracked like I usually do, going down rabbit trails and studying something else. A sad thought emerged after going through Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Having two sons and one daughter, I have all granddaughters save a grandson born to my daughter. My family surname lineage has now ceased to exist after my sons. But this is not what I would like to discuss. I want to discuss our children's inheritance, rights, and privileges: our firstborn male sons. Like today, the patriarchs and their wives had their favorite sons. Jacob usurped Esau's birthright as firstborn. The Hebrews-Jews had customs and inheritance rights bestowed on their children. Today, in our American culture, we would probably call Biblical hierarchy and firstborn privileges favoritism. As I mentioned, this seems to be a Hebrew-Jewish tradition and custom, perhaps not applicable to the Gentile, but I am not sure. It appears to have been an American custom until recent historical times with the firstborn male. Thus far, I have found no Biblical precedence for the Gentile to emulate this tradition and custom. I have always strived to love all my children equally, but it seems you love them differently and for different reasons. I was and still am accused of favoritism toward my daughter. My sons, like myself, barely got by in school because their priorities were elsewhere. My daughter was a straight "A" student from grade school through college. She was rewarded for her dedication and achievements; my sons took offense to that. To my knowledge, the firstborn male still seems to be a tradition. I requested my firstborn son to be the administrator of my will and have power of attorney. There is no favoritism in my will; each will receive a third of my estate. So, with everything stated above comes my question: Did Gentiles adopt these Hebrew customs and practices, and is it Biblical for Gentiles? It would seem that God declares His CHOICE with a double portion for the firstborn. Here is the Law of the Firstborn; 15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: 16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. (Dt 21:15–17) God, Lord of the harvest, claims the first fruits as well. The firstborn are the Lord's as He indicated by wanting the fist born of Israel to be priests and have the rule. Israel failed and Levites took the place of priests and Judah produced kings. I don't want to set forth any rule in this matter, but this was God's rule to honor His CHOICE. The question is; "is there any indication of US seeking honor for producing a firstborn"? I doubt it, since he already belongs to the Lord. I, like you, has stipulated that the executor cash everything in and will divide it into three equal parts. The only aberration is that my son can have first choice on my watch, as it is male, and the two girls are already told concerning my wife's jewelry. I like your reward system for your daughter. You taught your sons God's way. The reward system for diligence is made by God. It works in stripes as well. Note that lack of knowledge is no excuse. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Lk 12:47–48). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted January 28 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 349 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,516 Content Per Day: 2.69 Reputation: 5,415 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted January 28 2 hours ago, AdHoc said: It would seem that God declares His CHOICE with a double portion for the firstborn. Here is the Law of the Firstborn; 15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: 16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. (Dt 21:15–17) God, Lord of the harvest, claims the first fruits as well. The firstborn are the Lord's as He indicated by wanting the fist born of Israel to be priests and have the rule. Israel failed and Levites took the place of priests and Judah produced kings. I don't want to set forth any rule in this matter, but this was God's rule to honor His CHOICE. The question is; "is there any indication of US seeking honor for producing a firstborn"? I doubt it, since he already belongs to the Lord. I, like you, has stipulated that the executor cash everything in and will divide it into three equal parts. The only aberration is that my son can have first choice on my watch, as it is male, and the two girls are already told concerning my wife's jewelry. I like your reward system for your daughter. You taught your sons God's way. The reward system for diligence is made by God. It works in stripes as well. Note that lack of knowledge is no excuse. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Lk 12:47–48). Thank you very much for the Deuteronomy scripture! Except for Deu. chapter 32, in the past I usually speed read through it, along with the Song of Solomon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOrangeCat Posted January 28 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,421 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 1,846 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 28 6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: Today, in our American culture, we would probably call Biblical hierarchy and firstborn privileges favoritism. As I mentioned, this seems to be a Hebrew-Jewish tradition and custom, perhaps not applicable to the Gentile, but I am not sure. It appears to have been an American custom until recent historical times with the firstborn male. Thus far, I have found no Biblical precedence for the Gentile to emulate this tradition and custom. I have always strived to love all my children equally, but it seems you love them differently and for different reasons. Yeah, the firstborn, especially firstborn male, seems to get some recognition around the world. IIRC in Japan they were the main inheritors but that also came with the responsibility to be primary caregiver for their parents in old age. But like yourself I haven't come across any scriptural obligation in the Bible for Gentiles to observe the firstborn tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deborah_ Posted January 28 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.24 Reputation: 881 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/07/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 28 10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: Today, in our American culture, we would probably call Biblical hierarchy and firstborn privileges favoritism. As I mentioned, this seems to be a Hebrew-Jewish tradition and custom, perhaps not applicable to the Gentile, but I am not sure. It appears to have been an American custom until recent historical times with the firstborn male. Thus far, I have found no Biblical precedence for the Gentile to emulate this tradition and custom. I have always strived to love all my children equally, but it seems you love them differently and for different reasons. The custom of giving a double portion to the firstborn wasn't unique to Israel; it was pretty standard throughout the Middle East at that time. So it wasn't something that God had instituted, it was just a cultural tradition that Abraham's family continued to practise. Other cultures have other traditions, although most give preference to the eldest son in some way. But this 'preference' related to distributing the inheritance, it wasn't connected to the degree of love that the parents had for each of their children. It's interesting that the patriarchs often overrode this tradition, or were even instructed by God to do so. Jacob was preferred over Esau. Jacob later gave Ephraim (Joseph's youngest son) a greater blessing than Manasseh (the elder) (Genesis 48). And Jacob's three eldest sons forfeited their privileges by their scandalous behaviour, so the blessing of being "eldest" was passed to Judah (Genesis 49). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted January 28 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 962 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,723 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,115 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Online Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 28 Hi, Seems to me that with privilege ( Of a first born) also comes with a higher duty, along with greater penalty for failure in performance of duty. This is of God's doing, a precept, seen even in God the son becoming the firstborn of many to come. The firstborn took on the penalty laid upon all of the world's creatures death so that many may live. If it be tradition then perhaps it was established by God from before the beginning of creation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted January 30 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.20 Content Count: 13,128 Content Per Day: 9.65 Reputation: 13,676 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30 One very interesting thing about all of this for me was the discovery that God has used the underdog time and time again to bring his plans about. God continually confounds the strong using the weak. -He used the second born -He chose shepherds as the first to be told the message of His birth. Shepherds were the lowest rung of society at that time. - David was seen as a pick for king by those around him. This could be a study in and of itself since I've only touched on a few examples. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie744 Posted January 30 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,699 Content Per Day: 1.72 Reputation: 863 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30 On 1/28/2024 at 3:02 AM, Neighbor said: Hi, Seems to me that with privilege ( Of a first born) also comes with a higher duty, along with greater penalty for failure in performance of duty. This is of God's doing, a precept, seen even in God the son becoming the firstborn of many to come. The firstborn took on the penalty laid upon all of the world's creatures death so that many may live. If it be tradition then perhaps it was established by God from before the beginning of creation. Agree! The Jews were the first borne and would pay such a price for disobeying God, turning to idolatry, etc. We have all of their history that shows us how God wants to have His relationship with man. He reveals His love, patience, mercy and so much more throughout the OT and also that He will punish and hold us accountable.. God would select these people to reveal His commands, blessings and punishments… they suffered greatly so we can be saved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_from_pa Posted January 30 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 302 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/13/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 30 On 1/27/2024 at 5:54 PM, AdHoc said: It would seem that God declares His CHOICE with a double portion for the firstborn. Here is the Law of the Firstborn; 15 If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: 16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: 17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his. (Dt 21:15–17) God, Lord of the harvest, claims the first fruits as well. The firstborn are the Lord's as He indicated by wanting the fist born of Israel to be priests and have the rule. Israel failed and Levites took the place of priests and Judah produced kings. I don't want to set forth any rule in this matter, but this was God's rule to honor His CHOICE. The question is; "is there any indication of US seeking honor for producing a firstborn"? I doubt it, since he already belongs to the Lord. I, like you, has stipulated that the executor cash everything in and will divide it into three equal parts. The only aberration is that my son can have first choice on my watch, as it is male, and the two girls are already told concerning my wife's jewelry. I like your reward system for your daughter. You taught your sons God's way. The reward system for diligence is made by God. It works in stripes as well. Note that lack of knowledge is no excuse. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Lk 12:47–48). The passage in Deuteronomy, for that heir is the "beginning of his strength" is identical to what Jacob said of Reuben in Genesis 49:3. Inheritance was important and this was called the "birthright". Considering Reuben forfeited it due to his heinous act, the birthright then went to the sons on Joseph. He had two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh. Now Joseph become "one tribe" but had the double portion because Jacob, speaking under the Spirit of prophecy, arranged it so that the priestly tribe of Levi had no inheritance (the Lord was their inheritance) and were given the tithes. This left 11 tribes but the tribe of Joseph was given a double portion of that birthright making it 12 tribes so-to-speak. He further split the inheritance such that the tribe of Judah received the right to rule, but the birthright was Joseph's. (I Chronicles 5:1-2). The birthright as one unit (given to Isaac and then Jacob) consisted of earthly blessings such as becoming a great nation, becoming many nations, a great population size, a specific land, Kings were to come from them, blessings to all peoples (they understood it as bringing God's Law and ways to the rest of the world to whoever would join them) but spiritually, paved the way for Christ. They also were to become militarily mighty and prosperous inheriting the Gentiles (i.e nations all over the earth) and this foreshadowed the Kingdom of God when eventually Christ's Kingdom would come upon this earth and do the same. As a matter of fact, foreshadowing may be a bad word in that it's a type but yet still the same Kingdom. The Old Testament people of Israel were not promised salvation or anything on the spiritual part of things. That will happen later after the resurrection God would put His Spirit in them (c.f. Ezekiel 37). As for you, I'm not aware of any Biblical mandate to do the same with inheritance because we are already part of that. Otherwise, we'd be starting over and over and over again. I did make a mention to my one and only older brother that he could have 2/3 of the inheritance and I'd be happy with 1/3, but mom would not have any of that but wanted it split evenly (after she passed, since he sold the house for all of us I made sure he'd get a hefty percentage, AND THEN we split). It would be nice to keep things biblical but again, I don't see where it's mandated. I think when we are talking about the birthright, we have to see what that entailed, and it's far more than the booty Abraham once possessed, the sheep or the cattle. But we just have (for ourselves) the booty, sheep and cattle. The rest of the promises are already given to us and we are living them out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted January 30 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 962 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,723 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,115 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Online Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted January 30 2 hours ago, tim_from_pa said: It would be nice to keep things biblical but again, Including the Jubilee factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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