Why was Satan allowed to contaminate the new and perfect creation?

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, choir loft said:

Nowhere does scripture EXPLICITLY state or imply that the devil is part of the redemptive process.....of saving people from SIN.

Nowhere does @Vine Abider explicitly state or imply that Satan is part of the redemptive purpose. I understood that he implied that harmful things done by Satan are used by God to bring many sons into glory. This is unequivocally stated in Romans 8:28-29. God uses ALL THINGS to conform the Christian into the image of Christ. Did God allow Satan to sift Peter as wheat - that he might be a comfort to his brethren? Does this imply that God is part of evil against His New Testament people?

I think that maybe a soft word or two towards your brother in Christ might be in order.

[Marilyn C]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:49 AM, RV_Wizard said:

What are your thoughts on this?  Satan was cast out of Heaven long before the earth and the universe were created.  He was present to tempt Even via the serpent.  Why wasn't he imprisoned from the beginning?  Without his interference, man may never have sinned and we may have been born into grace instead of corruption.  Thoughts?

Hi RV,

Good question. God is just and righteous, and although He knows the end from the beginning, He lets the rulership of Lucifer/Satan be exposed throughout time.

As for man, he was perfect, however his moral character needed to be developed. And that is through choice. Man chose wrongly and has suffered the consequences ever since. 

Thus, angels and man have been given opportunity to rule but shown to be unrighteous. God is just and right to proclaim His Son `Worthy` to be the ruler over all God`s great kingdom. 

[RV_Wizard]

What if the final war in Heaven hasn't happened yet, and is as John saw in the vision at the end of days when Satan is finally cast out of Heaven for good and banished to Hell?  What if Satan is currently dethroned and outside of Heaven, but still able to exist in other locations, such as the earth?  After all, in the book of Job God is still talking to Satan.  When Jesus is in the wilderness for 40 days and nights He speaks with the devil.  One doesn't usually speak with a mortal enemy or allow him to show you temptations.  Perhaps God, being longsuffering, has exiled Satan and his angels but not fully condemned them yet?  Perhaps the war in heaven comes later, when Satan tries to take the thrown from God in the midst of the tribulations?  Perhaps Satan isn't the ruler of Hell, just one destined to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

This isn't presented as Scriptural teaching, but rather as a question in search of other perspectives.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, RV_Wizard said:

What if the final war in Heaven hasn't happened yet, and is as John saw in the vision at the end of days when Satan is finally cast out of Heaven for good and banished to Hell?  What if Satan is currently dethroned and outside of Heaven, but still able to exist in other locations, such as the earth?  After all, in the book of Job God is still talking to Satan.  When Jesus is in the wilderness for 40 days and nights He speaks with the devil.  One doesn't usually speak with a mortal enemy or allow him to show you temptations.  Perhaps God, being longsuffering, has exiled Satan and his angels but not fully condemned them yet?  Perhaps the war in heaven comes later, when Satan tries to take the thrown from God in the midst of the tribulations?  Perhaps Satan isn't the ruler of Hell, just one destined to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

This isn't presented as Scriptural teaching, but rather as a question in search of other perspectives.

Lucifer was cast out of the third heaven to the universal realm - Principalities and powers. It is from that area he will be cast out, with his fallen angels to the earth and then to the pit and then the Lake of fire - down, down, down....

When Satan has to come before God that doesn`t mean physically, but just where he is to stop and heed God. 

Jesus talked to the devil for that is who He came to overcome. Jesus had to go through those temptations to prove that He wasn`t going to use any supernatural means for Himself.

God is longsuffering as He unfolds His purposes for - the Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations. 

[1to3]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:49 AM, RV_Wizard said:

What are your thoughts on this?  Satan was cast out of Heaven long before the earth and the universe were created.  He was present to tempt Even via the serpent.  Why wasn't he imprisoned from the beginning?  Without his interference, man may never have sinned and we may have been born into grace instead of corruption.  Thoughts?

There are many conjectures and conclusions concerning the question.

As a Bible believing Christian, it is written that we are not to add or take away from what is written in Holy Scripture found in the Holy Bible.

The  Holy Bible does have a beginning creation story that begins in Genesis and continues to be explained in different passages of Holy scripture found throughout the Holy Bible.

If we look at Genesis and the six days God Created Everything,

It begins with saying that in the beginning was God the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Then,  God began to create ALL.

In the bible it refers to stars as being part of the angelic realm.

Therefore the angels after they were created on the fourth day. where able to rejoice and see God continue to create until God finished creating on the six day.

In Genesis, it mentions that ALL was GOOD after completion of His creation on the six day..

If all was GOOD as His Word says then there was no bad, no sin in ALL of Gods creation until, somewhere after day seven day,when God was pleased and said that ALL was good and rested on the seventh day.

 

It mention in Ezekiel that when  God created Lucifer, he was an anointed Cherubim, who had access from heaven to earth and walked in the garden of Eden in his role as anointed cherubim.

It continues to say in Holy scripture that all was good with  lucifer until sin/pride was found in him from all his -tradings- and God then cast him and 1/3 of the angelic creations down to earth.

Now that sin was found in Lucifer and 1/3 of the angelic realm they were cast down from Heaven where God resides and where only Light- Holiness can reside/exist. ( I John ch1)

It is written in Holy scripture of Christ Jesus Himself saying that He was a witness to seeing Lucifer fall from heaven.

 So from Scripture it shows that there was no sin in ALL of Gods creation until sin was found through the sin/pride in Lucifer and his tradings

God placed the tree of Life and the tree of  knowledge /Good and evil in the garden of Eden, and warned Adam to not eat of the tree of Good and Evil or he would surely die. Adam then told Eve what God had told him about the tree of good and evil.

Lucifer now cast down on earth striped of his functions as anointed cherubim , in his sin and jealousies over God having given Adam dominion to rule over creation on earth,  then tried to take Adam and Eve down to his sinful level as well.

Fallen Lucifers now named satan whose role now since being filled with pride/sin and only purpose is, as what being filled with sin does, is to try and steal, kill and destroy ALL that is Good and originally made from God.

satan convinced Eve and Adam through their own pride that God lied to them because God was afraid that if they partook in the tree of  knowledge ie.Good and Evil, they too would become as God.   They took the bate hook, line and sinker,  and the consequences that God had warned Adam and Eve about took effect.

God has since the fall of Adam and Eve, tried to bring redemption to man kind through His divine plan of Mercy and Grace through His only begotten Son Christ Jesus.

Gods ultimate plan was and is to restore His creation back to being good.

However, there is no place for sin/darkness in Gods GOODNESS.Light.

Gods Light Goodness burns out darkness/sin.

To come into the presence of God, we have the Holy Blood of Christ Jesus covering so to make all believers in Him acceptable to be in His presence and live with Him in heaven. All believer in Him become acceptable through the redemptive Work, not of themselves but because of the Work on the cross at Calvary through Christ Jesus. Praise God!

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

What if the final war in Heaven hasn't happened yet, and is as John saw in the vision at the end of days when Satan is finally cast out of Heaven for good and banished to Hell?  What if Satan is currently dethroned and outside of Heaven, but still able to exist in other locations, such as the earth?  After all, in the book of Job God is still talking to Satan.  When Jesus is in the wilderness for 40 days and nights He speaks with the devil.  One doesn't usually speak with a mortal enemy or allow him to show you temptations.  Perhaps God, being longsuffering, has exiled Satan and his angels but not fully condemned them yet?  Perhaps the war in heaven comes later, when Satan tries to take the thrown from God in the midst of the tribulations?  Perhaps Satan isn't the ruler of Hell, just one destined to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

This isn't presented as Scriptural teaching, but rather as a question in search of other perspectives.

You are correct in almost all of your posting.

1. Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" thirty years after Christ's ascension (Eph.2:2).
2. Satan is displaced by the Man-Child when he "has but a little time". This "little time" turns out to be 1260 days (Rev.12). Until then he is in heaven but his domain according to Luke 4 is earth
3. Jesus MUST face Satan because God tests everything - even Jesus Christ. He was tested again in Gethsemane
4. Satan's demise is as follows. He is now in heaven, but operates on earth. At the rapture of the Man-Child,*** (which is another discussion point in itself because all indicators point to them being the Overcomers, and no indicators show him to be Christ - Christ was not raptured after His birth, etc.), Satan has been morally defeated and just as the Overcomers won morally on earth, no place is found in heaven for him. Michael is authorized to eject Satan from heaven. This gives Satan 1260 days (the duration of the Get Tribulation) to pour his wrath out on men. Armageddon is fought and Satan is bound in the Abyss, no doubt Tartarus (2nd Pet.2:4).
5. Christ subdues and reigns for 1,000 years. His Kingdom was predicted to be an "everlasting Kingdom" in Daniel, so it is tested. Satan is loosed a while and raises up Magog to attack Jerusalem - Christ's Citadel. The slaughter is great - probably greater than Armageddon. But Christ's Kingdom is not damaged and Satan is then cast into the Lake of Fire.

The once choice creature, made as Covering Cherub with glorious attributes, and given the highest position among angels, is brought low as Isaiah 14 predicts.

*** The Man-Child cannot be Christ. The MOTHER of the Man-Child has three seeds; (i) The Man-Child, born last, (ii) those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ, and (iii) those who keep the commandments of God. She is pregnant in heaven but gives birth on earth. She must flee to a wilderness for 1260 days. She is helped by the earth. She is a ruler, having a crown. But here crown is of 12 stars - the seed of Abraham to rule the world (Rom.4:13). In typology, the sun is Christ. To be clothed with Him shows her righteousness though Christ. None of these attributes can be attributed to Mary. 

The Man-Child can only be one of two. BOTH Christ and the Overcomers rule the Nations with a rod of iron (Rev.2:27, 19:15). The attributes for Overcomers in verses 10-11 are PLURAL. THEY (plural) overcame ... by the blood of the Lamb. Christ does not need His blood to Overcome. He was without sin. The Man-Child must be the Overcomers - raptured shortly before the 1260 days of horror start.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

I don't think the devil was cast out before the earth was created.
No one was with God or before God when He created. [ Isaiah 44:24 kjv ]
The angels were created sometime around when the sky was created;
Psalms 104:3-4 kjv.

Wisdom was made first, [Proverbs 8:23-25] that is, God's wise plan to send His Son to die on behalf of His creation. God planned to let His Son humbly die, that was God's choice before any other choices were made. A wise plan, He would tackle the ideas of death and an end, rising from it. Therefore whatever negative choices made by His freewill creatures matter little, He already chose to die.

As such Christ did die innocently, experiencing all of death, He took the keys of death and of hades, and rose from death back to physical life, and ascended physically to the throne of God, He Himself in control of the opening of the seals of the end times.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RdJ]

23 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The angels were created sometime around when the sky was created;
Psalms 104:3-4 kjv.

I looked up this text in Dutch. ???? It's translated completely different in Dutch.

NKJV:

Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire.
Psalms 104:4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.104.4.NKJV

NBG51:

Hij maakt de winden tot zijn boden, laaiend vuur tot zijn dienaren.
Psalmen 104:4 NBG51
https://bible.com/bible/328/psa.104.4.NBG51

He makes the winds his messengers, and blazing fire his servants.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

27 minutes ago, Renskedejonge said:

It's translated completely different in Dutch.

I think some translations change
Psalms 104:4 even more, and some even exclude it.
But we also have Job 38:4-9.
When He laid the corner stone of the land,
'the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy'.
Then He goes on to speak of shutting up the sea,
which is the creation of the sky.

It is the order given in the passages that shows when things were made.

Job 38:4-11
Genesis 1:1-17
Psalms 104:1-9

They give the same general order, Job and Psalms include 'sons of God' 'angels'.

Proverbs 8:23 specifically tells us that wisdom was first.
Colossians 1:17 tells us Christ was first.
Therefore wisdom concerning Christ was first, the plan concerning Christ,
God's choice was very first

Edited February 16 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Logostician]

You can't force love.  God didn't create us to be robots.  He created us in his image.  That means we have the capacity to love as God loves.  God loves us.  But have to decide whether to love him back or not.  God wills that we be given that choice.

Satan and Adam both chose to walk away from a dependent loving relationship with God.  All real choices involve alternatives.  Satan presented Adam with the alternative of self worship, to worship of God.  And Adam, like Satan, chose self over God.  Mankind fell with Adam.  But this fall was necessary to ultimately unite man with God through the salvation of Jesus Christ, for anyone who would love him.  This was God's plan all along.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.