Daniel 2:34 - Stone striking the feet of the image.

[Last Daze]

15 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

In Daniel chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar sees the Stone strike the feet of the metal man image. Does this symbolize an event at the time of the Messiah or an end-time event and why?

End-time.  Traces are still found of Babylon, Persia, Greece, etc. (v35).  Understanding the spiritual nature of these earthly kingdoms helps to make sense of this prophecy, and others.

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Last Daze said:

End-time.  Traces are still found of Babylon, Persia, Greece, etc. (v35).  Understanding the spiritual nature of these earthly kingdoms helps to make sense of this prophecy, and others.

I agree that verse 2:34 is speaking in a spiritual manner… so,

Is this verse speaking of the Messiah’s first coming?

The end is not yet so if it does not refer to His first coming, then it has not yet happened, correct?

Is it possible that the stone (Messiah) that struck the feet of the image took place when He first came for the purpose of breaking apart (not destroying) the iron and the clay elements only? 
 

And, since we know the iron symbolizes the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, we would need to identify what the clay element is symbolizing?

 

 

[Michael37]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Okay, and thanks for your response. 
 

But, is 2:34 an end time event or an event that took place at His first coming?

And why?

 

Be like Nebuchadnezzar and ask Daniel.

Dan 2:36  "This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king.
 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree that verse 2:34 is speaking in a spiritual manner… so,

Is this verse speaking of the Messiah’s first coming?

The end is not yet so if it does not refer to His first coming, then it has not yet happened, correct?

Is it possible that the stone (Messiah) that struck the feet of the image took place when He first came for the purpose of breaking apart (not destroying) the iron and the clay elements only? 
 

And, since we know the iron symbolizes the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, we would need to identify what the clay element is symbolizing?

 

 

No,you dont know.

You are assuming the 4th kingdom of Daniels prophecy is Rome.

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree that verse 2:34 is speaking in a spiritual manner… so,

Is this verse speaking of the Messiah’s first coming?

The end is not yet so if it does not refer to His first coming, then it has not yet happened, correct?

Is it possible that the stone (Messiah) that struck the feet of the image took place when He first came for the purpose of breaking apart (not destroying) the iron and the clay elements only? 

The kingdom of God did come with Christ at His first advent.  I don't think the prophecy of the stone hitting the feet of iron and clay is a reference to His first advent though.  

You continued watching until a stone was broken off without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed to pieces all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found.  Daniel 2:34-35

Notice that all of the components of the statue were crushed to pieces all at the same time when the stone hit the statue, and there was not a trace of them found.  That didn't happen at His first coming.

Based on other passages, I think it's reasonable to assume that the angelic prince of the 4th kingdom was cast into the abyss during the first century and was released at the opening at the first seal, along with the princes of the other kingdoms represented by the statue.

7 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

And, since we know the iron symbolizes the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, we would need to identify what the clay element is symbolizing?

The feet of iron and clay represent the scope of the man of sin's authority which is every people, nation, tribe and tongue.  In governmental terms, you could say the U.N. is a kind of model.  The iron represents remnants of the Roman empire which still exist and clay is everyone else.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The kingdom of God did come with Christ at His first advent.  I don't think the prophecy of the stone hitting the feet of iron and clay is a reference to His first advent though.  
 

Thanks! I would ask that you might consider the following:

1) chapter 2 (like a few other chapters) is written not in a pure chronological order, but rather in two separate sections.

    a) there is a “dream sequence” which gives us the big picture view. In chapter 2, this can be found in verses 31-35. Here God is establishing His “blueprint” for the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will be found WITHIN HIS PROPHETIC STORY IN DANIEL. Obviously, God wants us to focus ONLY on this 4 kingdoms even though there were and will be hundreds of other kingdoms before and after the cross. But the book of Daniel is not a history book or lesson. God will include and exclude whatever actors and events that He wants within His prophetic story. 
 

b) in addition to establishing the 4 kingdoms, which come in chronological order, He will also provide 2 and only 2 events that will be given within His “dream sequence.” One is found right after the 4th kingdom is revealed. That kingdom will be pagan Rome, and right after this kingdom comes into play, this first event will occur. This is important because it is the time of the coming Messiah in the 1st century. Verse 2:34, the first if 2 events within the “blueprint,” is when the Stone (Messiah) arrives and strikes the feet (not the toes), and breaks apart (not destroys) ONLY the iron and the clay elements found WITHIN the feet. God does not come to destroy but to divide (He broke “them” into pieces. 

c) verse 35 represents the 2nd of the 2 events that are found WITHIN the “dream sequence.” Here, God is revealing the “end time” event, His second coming, when He will destroy / crush ALL of the elements. Meaning, His first coming will separate the iron and the clay so He can use those “pottery clay” (discussed in 41-43) as He deems so - so neither the clay found within the feet of pagan Rome (iron) which is controlling or containing the clay (Jews) within the symbolic feet, are destroyed. In fact, the stone does not even destroy the iron! - pagan Rome will continue after the Cross (stone striking the feet). 
BUT at the time of the end, the Messiah will return and DESTROY ALL of the 5 elements (including the ceramic clay (those who would continue to reject Jesus). The 5 separate elements are purposely listed (unlike in 2:34) because each individual from ALL and every nation will be judged individually. No one will be left that is not judged and it will not be on a national level, or what church or religion one belongs to. 
 

d) so, these “dream sequence” verses tell us the only kingdoms and the 2 important events at the “macro” level. 

 e) after God establishes His master blueprint, He will then provide some of the important “details” that He wants to reveal in chapter 2. Then, in verses 36-45, God will reveal many of the important details that are A DIRECT RESULT OF THE STONE STRIKING THE FEET. Here, He tells us those details that will take place when the stone separates the clay (Jews) from the iron ( pagan Rome) AFTER THE CROSS. 
 

Verses 2:36-45 were some of the most difficult verses in Daniel to unpack. And it would be IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCOVER IF 2:34 WAS NOT UNDERSTOOD AS HIS FIRST COMING—- EVERYTHING WOULD HAVE TO BE TREATED AS END TIME EVENTS. 
 

Let me know what you think.., Charlie 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

You continued watching until a stone was broken off without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed to pieces all at the same time, and they were like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found.  Daniel 2:34-35

Notice that all of the components of the statue were crushed to pieces all at the same time when the stone hit the statue, and there was not a trace of them found.  That didn't happen at His first coming.

Based on other passages, I think it's reasonable to assume that the angelic prince of the 4th kingdom was cast into the abyss during the first century and was released at the opening at the first seal, along with the princes of the other kingdoms represented by the statue.

The feet of iron and clay represent the scope of the man of sin's authority which is every people, nation, tribe and tongue.  In governmental terms, you could say the U.N. is a kind of model.  The iron represents remnants of the Roman empire which still exist and clay is everyone else.

 

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So, if I may, you are saying that 2:34 and 2:35 take place at the same time ? And, they are both end time events?

 

"As you watched, a stone was cut out,d but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 

35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."

When the stone strikes the statue on the feet THEN...so 'after this'. The Hebrew is like 'thereupon this, now this'. 

Verse 35 is a direct result of verse 34. Verse 35 only happens because of verse 34 and the actions directly follow.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

"As you watched, a stone was cut out,d but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay, and crushed them. 

35Then the iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold were shattered and became like chaff on the threshing floor in summer. The wind carried them away, and not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that had struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."

When the stone strikes the statue on the feet THEN...so 'after this'. The Hebrew is like 'thereupon this, now this'. 

Verse 35 is a direct result of verse 34. Verse 35 only happens because of verse 34 and the actions directly follow.

Well, that is today’s accepted interpretation, but unless the Messiah came and broke apart the clay from the iron, His Word and the Testimony of Jesus would not have been able to be spread around the world.

Just because the two verses follow one another does not mean they take place at the same place time.

You do not need verse 2:34 if 2:35 happen at the same time. In 2:34, the Jews and His Word are separated from each their symbolic containment of pagan Rome. 
But in 2:35, He destroys ALL 5 elements (end time6. 
 

 

[Last Daze]

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Here God is establishing His “blueprint” for the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will be found WITHIN HIS PROPHETIC STORY IN DANIEL. Obviously, God wants us to focus ONLY on this 4 kingdoms even though there were and will be hundreds of other kingdoms before and after the cross.

Yours is one way to look at it but if you equate Christ's first coming with the stone striking the feet of iron and clay then you have to explain how all the previous kingdoms were crushed at that time and how not a trace of any of them remained . . . when traces have remained.

The only thing that makes sense to me is to look at the four angelic princes behind the earthly kingdoms.  They came out in succession beginning with Babylon and ending with Rome.  During the course of the gospel going out to the nations, these four princes were in the abyss unable to exert any influence on earth.  After the gospel was preached around the world and the first seal was opened, all four princes were released to play their part in setting the stage for the man of sin.  The feet of iron and clay is the manifestation of their efforts.

Don't get hung up on there being 4 and only 4 kingdoms.  The legs of iron, and the feet of iron and clay, are seen as one kingdom because the same prince is responsible for both.  It may appear as two earthly kingdoms separated by a couple thousand years or so but the origin for both is the same.

Edited February 29 by Last Daze

[JoeCanada]

On 2/27/2024 at 8:21 PM, Charlie744 said:

His first coming will separate the iron and the clay so He can use those “pottery clay” (discussed in 41-43) as He deems so

Hi Charlie, 

In my search I came across this article and found it very interesting, especially as this discussion is about potters clay and iron.

Here is a clip:

Types of Clay for Pottery - The Main Clay Types

There are several slightly different types of clay used for different types of pottery, but clay can be classified into 6 main types that are used commonly among potters. Here, we take a look at the main clay types specifically used for pottery. The 6 main types of clay are earthenware clay, stoneware clay, ball clay, fire clay, porcelain clay, and air dry clay.

What is earthenware clay?

This clay is perhaps the most common type of clay. Earthenware clay has been used by potters throughout history and is probably the earliest form of clay to be used. This type of clay is very sticky, has high plasticity and so it is easy to manipulate and work with.

This type of clay is primarily composed of iron and a few other mineral impurities, which is what lends itself to the clay's unique properties.

Earthenware clay has a composition of iron, and a few other mineral impurities, which work to give it its unique properties. This perfect blend of mineral impurities and iron go a long way to alter the physical properties of the clay.

“In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

Potters clay is earthenware clay which is primarily composed of iron.

Very very interesting!