Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[BeyondET]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:52 AM, RV_Wizard said:

Science would tell us on day seven that Adam was at least 20 years old, that he had two parents, that the trees were at least 30-100 years old, and that the animals had been evolving over millions of years.  We know this was not the case. 

 We do know That's not the case and something you concocted about science.

[RV_Wizard]

59 minutes ago, BeyondET said:

 We do know That's not the case and something you concocted about science.

Really?  How old does a tree have to be to bear fruit?  How old does a tree have to be to offer shade?  How old does a person need to be considered a man, old enough to reproduce AND care for a family?  How old does an elephant need to be to reproduce?  Please list for me all the supernatural events that have a scientific explanation.

What many fail to grasp is that God created a mature world.  He didn't wait billions of years for it to form itself, He formed it all in six days.  Yes, the trees were real, and on the first day of their existence they had rings.  We are told that TODAY rings are indications of seasons and years, but today we don't see God speaking entire forests into existence.

I hate to disillusion you, but what you KNOW is wrong.  The earth did not come into existence by natural processes, it came to exist because God spoke it into existence.  The world and everything in it was created in its mature state.   If you want to say that the earth is 13.5 billion years old, it's because God made it that way to support man's existence.

 

[BeyondET]

6 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Really?  How old does a tree have to be to bear fruit?  How old does a tree have to be to offer shade?  How old does a person need to be considered a man, old enough to reproduce AND care for a family?  How old does an elephant need to be to reproduce?  Please list for me all the supernatural events that have a scientific explanation.

What many fail to grasp is that God created a mature world.  He didn't wait billions of years for it to form itself, He formed it all in six days.  Yes, the trees were real, and on the first day of their existence they had rings.  We are told that TODAY rings are indications of seasons and years, but today we don't see God speaking entire forests into existence.

I hate to disillusion you, but what you KNOW is wrong.  The earth did not come into existence by natural processes, it came to exist because God spoke it into existence.  The world and everything in it was created in its mature state.   If you want to say that the earth is 13.5 billion years old, it's because God made it that way to support man's existence.

 

Yes really everything you said in the quote below was false you made it up. What you posted above is diversion.

 

"Science would tell us on day seven that Adam was at least 20 years old, that he had two parents, that the trees were at least 30-100 years old, and that the animals had been evolving over millions of years". 

[RV_Wizard]

7 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Yes really everything you said in the quote below was false you made it up. What you posted above is diversion.

Not in the least.

On the day he was created, Adam could walk and talk, he was able to til the land, he was able to care for the garden, he was mature enough to procreate, he was mature enough to know right from wrong and to know the consequence of disobeying God.  He was not a child.  And examination of Adam would show fully developed organs.  He was a man.  He had the appearance of age because he was created in his mature form.  Likewise, Eve was fully developed on the day she was created.  God created man and woman, not children.

Since those who call themselves learned say that man evolved, they would then contend that Adam and Eve must have had parents who were almost but not quite humans.  More likely, they would deny the existence of Adam and Eve altogether.  They would not accept the special creation of Adam then any more than they do now. 

The trees also were fully mature at their creation.  There were trees bearing fruit on day three, even before the sun was created.  It takes around 7-10 years for a tree to produce fruit, depending on the fruit.  It can take 100 years  for an oak tree to fully mature.  Since there is no evidence that things were different than they are, the trees, being mature, would have rings.  God created everything in its mature form as the Bible clearly states.  There isn't a single verse that says anything about tiny babies crawling from the swamp.  

What about the animal (cow?) that God killed to clothe Adam?  Evolution proponents claim that the cow dates back 20 million years.  Yet, cattle existed in Adam's time.  

Again, everything you think you know is wrong.  God's word is correct.

[BeyondET]

14 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Not in the least.

On the day he was created, Adam could walk and talk, he was able to til the land, he was able to care for the garden, he was mature enough to procreate, he was mature enough to know right from wrong and to know the consequence of disobeying God.  He was not a child.  And examination of Adam would show fully developed organs.  He was a man.  He had the appearance of age because he was created in his mature form.  Likewise, Eve was fully developed on the day she was created.  God created man and woman, not children.

Since those who call themselves learned say that man evolved, they would then contend that Adam and Eve must have had parents who were almost but not quite humans.  More likely, they would deny the existence of Adam and Eve altogether.  They would not accept the special creation of Adam then any more than they do now. 

The trees also were fully mature at their creation.  There were trees bearing fruit on day three, even before the sun was created.  It takes around 7-10 years for a tree to produce fruit, depending on the fruit.  It can take 100 years  for an oak tree to fully mature.  Since there is no evidence that things were different than they are, the trees, being mature, would have rings.  God created everything in its mature form as the Bible clearly states.  There isn't a single verse that says anything about tiny babies crawling from the swamp.  

What about the animal (cow?) that God killed to clothe Adam?  Evolution proponents claim that the cow dates back 20 million years.  Yet, cattle existed in Adam's time.  

Again, everything you think you know is wrong.  God's word is correct.

O yes you fabricated the statement below. Science doesn't say any of this. 

 

RV_Wizard 

"Science would tell us on day seven that Adam was at least 20 years old, that he had two parents, that the trees were at least 30-100 years old, and that the animals had been evolving over millions of years. We know this was not the case." 

[RV_Wizard]

9 hours ago, BeyondET said:

Science doesn't say any of this. 

I proved my point.  whether you can grasp it is entirely on you.

[FreeGrace]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:01 AM, RV_Wizard said:

What many fail to grasp is that God created a mature world.  He didn't wait billions of years for it to form itself, He formed it all in six days.

??  Your view previously is that God created the world in steps, beginning with a "formless and empty" non-earth, I guess.  But now your view is that He created a mature world.  Seems to be a contradiction here.

But that is what occurs when one accepts meanings that do not agree with how the Bible itself defines itself.  You've seen all 3 occurrences of "tohu wabohu" in the OT:

Gen 1:2, Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  There is no context in Genesis 1 to understand what Moses meant by "tohu wabohu".  However, we DO have clear context in BOTH of the other texts.  In Jeremiah 4, he was describing what an "invading (besieging) army" (v.16) that is a "destroyer of nations" (v.7)

Then, in v.20 Jeremiah wrote:  "Disaster after disaster is proclaimed, for the whole land is laid waste.  My tents are destroyed in an instant, my curtains in a moment."

3 verses Jeremiah quotes from Gen 1:2 and uses the SAME WORDS as Moses did; "tohu wabohu".

So there is no way those Hebrew words can be used to describe any kind of process involved in creation.  In both Jer 4 and Isa 34, the words are used to describe destruction, not construction.

On 6/25/2024 at 7:01 AM, RV_Wizard said:

  Yes, the trees were real, and on the first day of their existence they had rings.  We are told that TODAY rings are indications of seasons and years, but today we don't see God speaking entire forests into existence.

I hate to disillusion you, but what you KNOW is wrong.  The earth did not come into existence by natural processes, it came to exist because God spoke it into existence. 

We actually don't know whether the trees had rings or not.  They do now, but we don't know about the first ones created in Genesis 1.  

I agree with you about God creating the earth (and universe) by speaking it into existence.  We know that from Psa 33:6 and 9.  And He is more than powerful enough to speak it all into existence without going through any kind of stages or processes, as has been suggested previously, to defend "tohu wabohu" as part of the process in "forming" the earth.  

Anyway, there is nothing in Gen 1:2ff that speaks of creating the earth itself.  That occurs in v.1, which is when God spoke it into existence all at once.

Gen 1:2ff is about decorating the earth after creating it.

[RV_Wizard]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Your view previously is that God created the world in steps, beginning with a "formless and empty" non-earth, I guess.  But now your view is that He created a mature world.  Seems to be a contradiction here.

Not at all.  The earth was created over a three day period.  When it was done, it was a mature planet, suitable for all life throughout all the ages.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

Not at all.  The earth was created over a three day period.  When it was done, it was a mature planet, suitable for all life throughout all the ages.

But there is nothing in Genesis one that describes the earth being "created" or "formed" in 3 days.  

God's creative ability allows Him to instantly create the earth whole.  Adding water isn't "more" creation.  It's just adding TO an already complete sphere.  

Recall, adding water doesn't provide "form" to what is erroneously called a "formless" earth.  There is no such thing.  

The form of the earth is spherical.  Adding water and lights and vegetation doesn't change the form or create form to the sphere.  

Scripture defines itself.  Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 because the words 'tohu wabohu' describe destruction and not construction.  And Isaiah used the very same words to describe destruction of land.

So, "tohu wabohu" describes destruction rather than construction (creation).

[RV_Wizard]

28 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

But there is nothing in Genesis one that describes the earth being "created" or "formed" in 3 days.  

Nothing?  Genesis 1:9-13.

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.  And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.  And the evening and the morning were the third day.

By the end of day two, the earth was still covered in water.  Land appeared and at that point the earth was complete.  Vegetation and the first living things came later on day three.  Therefore, the earth was created in three days.  It's not hard to figure out, IF you believe the Bible.

33 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Adding water isn't "more" creation.

Actually, the water was there already.  He caused the dry land to appear.  While all the materials of creation came into being at once, God still formed the earth to His satisfaction over a three day period.

35 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The form of the earth is spherical.

More accurately, it's an oblate spheroid.  It's larger around the equator than at the poles.

37 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

 Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 because the words 'tohu wabohu' describe destruction and not construction.

Proven false many times.  The meaning of any word is partially determined by context.  There are very few words with only one meaning.  God stated when He carved the Ten Commandments that He created everything in six days.  You can believe Him or not.  If you write otherwise, it's heresy.