Rev 16:18 suggests an Old Earth??

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The key to understanding v.2 is found in 2 Hebrew words, "tohu wabohu", translated by most English translations, "formless and void".  Since there is nothing between the mention of creation in v.1 and v.2 it is easy to think that v.2 is simply a continuation from v.1.

It would seem to me context is the path to understanding. In that case, the translation as is fits; " be without feature and empty of life."

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

However, the 2 words occur together 3 times in the OT, and the other 2 times context is included, which gives us an understanding of how the descriptive words are used and meant.  Just because there is no context for the words in Gen 1:2 doesn't give license to think it means something different than in the other 2 verses where they occur and where there is clear context.

Is this a fresh take on law of first mention? I have to reject that. Context is King in understanding.

22 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 

 There is no evidence that "tohu wabohu" changed meaning between 1400 and 700 BC.

The context surely changed.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

We don't know how long they were in the Garden of Eden, but all of Adam's days are recorded.  We know how long he lived, how old he was when his named children were born, and the subsequent genealogy.  We know that Cain and Able were at least old enough to make sacrifices to God, and that Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old.  There is no mention of children when Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden, and nothing saying there weren't children.  God said the He would multiply her pain in childbirth, so she obviously had a clue what it was like; either her own or from seeing animals give birth.

Gen 1

27So God created man in His own image;

in the image of God He created him;

male and female He created them.e

28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

I would think they both began immediately, before the fall, possibly before the days of life were counted as they were not dying before the fall, and the curse.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

Job 26 then cause in the rest it's destruction and if it always means a wasteland caused by destruction it must mean that too in Job 26.

https://www.icr.org/bible/Job/26/7/#:~:text=26%3A7 earth upon nothing,identified and described this force.

Job 26:7

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He has stretched out the North from the waste place and has suspended the Earth on nothing

Literal Standard Version
Stretching out the north over desolation, | Hanging the earth on nothing,

Young's Literal Translation
Stretching out the north over desolation, Hanging the earth upon nothing,

Here are 3 translations that properly translate "tohu".  All the rest miss, because "tohu" isn't 'void' or 'empty'.  That word is "bohu".

If tohu means empty, then Gen 1:2 says the earth was empty and empty.

For some reason, I wasn't able to separate your post into sections that I could respond to, so I will have to take one idea at a time.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

Psalm 33 By the Word of God were the heavens made.

Jesus is the Word.

Genesis 1: 1 does not say: God spoke: earth be there instant like I want it to be and it was.

 

No, it says "God created (bara) the heavens and earth."  Psa 33 6,9 say He spoke things into existence.

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

He built the woman, He formed Adam from dust and breathed in him.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 1:26‭-‬27 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.1.26-27.NKJV

I am not seeing a point here.

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.2.7.NKJV

Again, the point?

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

point?

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

John 1

I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:23‭-‬31 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/pro.8.23-31.NKJV

Point?

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

Job 38

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

Here, God is asking Job if he saw God's creation.

The main point to focus in Gen 1:2 are the 2 Hebrew words, tohu wabohu.  They describe something as a state of being.

Since there are no details to explain what the words mean, we HAVE TO look where there ARE clear details.

Jer 4:23 is a quote from Gen 1:2.  The context is very clear;  the coming disaster and total destruction of land.  Read from v.1.

Isa 34:11 is the other text with a clear context; total destruction of the land.  Again, start with v.1.

Since the 2 words are together only 3 times, the only way to understand what they describe in Gen 1:2 is to study the other 2 places.

It is not reasonable to assume they mean something else where there is no detail when there is clear meaning in the 2 passages where the have details.

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, RdJ said:

This is confused.  There is no "Tohu of the spirit hovering over the water", as David Lev wrote below that phrase.

[FreeGrace]

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

In response to the OP:

Revelation 16:18 "And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

No.  It doesn't suggest an old earth at all.  Adam was created on the sixth day

If true, then the words "not SINCE men were upon the earth" is meaningless.  John would have written "not since the creation of the earth", since Adam would have been created just 6 days later.  

It brings up the point that supports what "tohu wabohu" actually describes, given that there are 2 passages that clearly reveal how the words are used; Jer 4:23 and Isa 34:11.  Both contexts are about coming disaster and total destruction.

Point being, we simply don't know how or why the earth became a wasteland.  What happened before and/or during the destruction could have included 1 or more earthquakes.

10 hours ago, RV_Wizard said:

 

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

And if God didn't create the earth to lay waste but to be inhabited by people, how can you then say He first turned it all into a wasteland that couldn't be inhabited?

You've made a faulty assumption.  God didn't lay waste to it.  And yes, He plan WAS for the earth to be inhabited by people.  That's obvious.  All that "tohu wabohu" describes and means is a total destruction of the land, and Gen 1 doesn't give us that information.  But Jer 4 and Isa 34 sure do.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

He just started to create the earth, told the waters to stay there, made trees, animals etc and created man and it was inhabited and He never wiped everyone out. He saved Noah, his family and some animals. After the flood was gone it also wasn't a complete wasteland, so why would it be with a supposed first satan flood.

The 6 days are days of restoration.  

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

@FreeGrace You say we can't know what happened before it was turned into a wasteland, but since He didn't make it to  be a wasteland but to be inhabited, that would have to mean it was inhabited. There can't have been nothing for ages.

That is certainly obvious.  But God didn't give us any details or explanation.  It would seem the details aren't relevant to humans.  As to what inhabited the earth, we'll never know until eternity.  :)

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

I do believe satan fell way before God started to create the earth, because he couldn't in one day first shout for joy for the earth being made and then gossip about God to all the other angels and pull a third with him, but I don't believe that God first created another race and dinosaurs and destroyed them all, other than in Noah's flood.

I agree with you about satan's fall being way before God put Adam on earth.  We know from Ezek 28 that satan was "in Eden, the garden of God" and this precedes v.15 where his fall is described.

It seems rather obvious that angels had and have full access to all of the universe.  We know they travel from God's abode, which is outside the universe, to earth.  That much is clear.  Whatever happened to earth BEFORE it became a wasteland isn't relevant to man, so God wisely left out the details.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It would seem to me context is the path to understanding. In that case, the translation as is fits; " be without feature and empty of life."

But there is no context.  However, try and fit what you propose into Jer 4:23 and Iswa 34:11, both of which are describing the total destruction of land.

The best transation of the 2 words together are "uninhabitable wasteland", which sure does fit both Jer 4 and Isa 34.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Is this a fresh take on law of first mention? I have to reject that. Context is King in understanding.

The context surely changed.

There is no context in Gen 1.  Simply, God created the earth in v.1 and in v.2  "uninhabitable wasteland", all without any details.

The details ARE given in the other 2 passages, however.  It is from there we learn about the use of "tohu wabohu".

Why would Jeremiah, in the middle of warning of coming disaster and total destruction on the land, quote from Gen 1:2, if it only described original creation?

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

If true, then the words "not SINCE men were upon the earth" is meaningless.  John would have written "not since the creation of the earth", since Adam would have been created just 6 days later. 

It doesn't have to mean that the earth was destroyed by an earthquake. That may just be how God formed the mountains, like in the texts I gave.

 

 

Nuna was the first continent before Pangaea and there were earthquakes because there were mountains before the flood of Noah.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220203103029.htm

mountains only formed twice in Earth's history -- the first between 2,000 and 1,800 million years ago and the second between 650 and 500 million years ago.

Both mountain ranges rose during periods of supercontinent formation.

Lead author, ANU PhD candidate Ziyi Zhu, said there are links between these two instances of supermountains and the two most important periods of evolution in Earth's history.

"There's nothing like these two supermountains today. It's not just their height -- if you can imagine the 2,400 km long Himalayas repeated three or four times you get an idea of the scale," she said.

"We call the first example the Nuna Supermountain.

 

They say there was no life yet with the Nuna supercontinent, so that must have been at creation, before man was on the earth.

 

I don't care much about the ages they give, but if there is evidence in the mountains that there was no life it means there was no life yet.

 

Edited April 10, 2024 by RdJ

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

It doesn't have to mean that the earth was destroyed by an earthquake.

I didn't suggest such.  The point is that if Adam is only 65 days older than earth's creation, the wording wouldn't have even included Adam.  It would have just said:  "not since the creation of the earth".  The mention of Adam sure implies the earth could have had an earthquake before Adam appeared. 

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

That may just be how God formed the mountains, like in the texts I gave.

I don't argue that.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Nuna was the first continent before Pangaea and there were earthquakes because there were mountains before the flood of Noah.

Not familiar with either Nina or Pangaea.  Don't know what they are.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Both mountain ranges rose during periods of supercontinent formation.

This discussion isn't about mountains.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

Lead author, ANU PhD candidate Ziyi Zhu, said there are links between these two instances of supermountains and the two most important periods of evolution in Earth's history.

I flatly reject ANY form of evolution.  God created the heavens and earth (Gen 1:1) by speaking them into existence immediately (Psa 33:6,9) just as we see during the 6 day restoration:  God spoke, and things appeared.  That's how God creates.

2 hours ago, RdJ said:

I don't care much about the ages they give, but if there is evidence in the mountains that there was no life it means there was no life yet.

This isn't about mountains, actually.  It's about the fact that the earth must be much older than Adam, given the wording in Gen 1:2 and Rev 16:18.