Two times God gathers Israel, the next time is when He comes

[Charlie744]

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The iron and clay in the feet are kingdoms just as the rest of the statue.

I believe there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms established by God. Each is symbolized by a specific “metal” type. The clay is within the iron feet (4th kingdom of Rome) and represents His people that have been restored to Jerusalem from Babylon. The timing of the striking of the feet by the Stone occurs in the last week of the 70th week of years prophecy. The Messiah does not destroy the image by striking the feet but is meant to separate or break apart His people (clay) from the iron kingdom. 

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

When Jesus the rock returns to smash it at the feet, it is a violent overthrow of the kingdoms of the world. Not some non military attack on Israel!

No, the Stone represents the first coming of the Messiah and He would not come as the Jews expected Him to come - as a conquering king like King David who would destroy the Romans. Instead, He came to “divide” and through the cross He would “separate” those of His people that would accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) versus those who would reject Him (ceramic clay). 
 

This is why you will see the separate parties / elements in chapter 7 - they are no longer kept within the iron kingdom feet. 

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The only time the kingdoms of the world (that the statue represented) will be dashed to pieces by Jesus is in the end.
 

Agree. Verse 2:34 represents the first coming of the Messiah when He will “set up” His earthly Kingdom. His people (pottery clay) will go out into the Roman Empire and preach the Good News to the Gentiles. 
 

The time of the Gentiles will be for some 2000 years and then verse 2:35 will apply. The Messiah will return and the end will come. 

 

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

 

Anyone thinking ancient Rome fulfilled that was out to lunch.

Not sure what this refers to… 

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Whether there will be a full temple or not doesn't matter. There will be animals sacrifices and a holy place though.

I agree, it doesn’t matter what those who continue to reject the Messiah will do or try to do. 
 

And that includes any of the Levitical ceremonies or practices… they mean nothing.
 

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Not sure why you brought up the word desolate. Hopefully not to try and relate to the abomination that makes desolate.

Of course there is a definite purpose! The AOD, or the “Abomination that CAUSES desolation” represents ONLY ONE EVENT- the crucifixion of the Messiah! 
 

God had already completely destroyed the Jews, the Temple, the entire city of Jerusalem by the hands of the Babylonians. All of this was due to their disobedience to God in not honoring the Sabbath as it relates to the land.  EVERYTHING was destroyed and the Jews were sent into captivity for 70 years. 
 

Fast forward some 600 years and now His people being completely restored to Jerusalem will now reject their Messiah and crucify Him. Can you please try and offer a more horrific transgression against God? What could possibly equal or even approach this level of sin? NOTHING COULD COME CLOSE TO THIS ACTION AGAINST THEIR GOD. 
 

Consequently, God would have to punish His people. But this time it would not be a 70 year period in captivity and a complete destruction of their Temple, city, walls, etc. This is on another whole level!

There are two parts to His punishment:

1) God would give His people another 40 years after the criss ( a 40 year testing period to accept Him). But of course they continued to reject Him and continued their Levitical ceremonies and practices. Then in 70 AD He would send the Roman army to completely destroy EVERYTHING - ALL the things physical about Jerusalem. The Jews would be scattered around the world for this “abominable” transgression. And here is also when He would punish His people in the worst way. In Babylon, they were sent into captivity for 70 years BUT THEIR GOD THROUGH DANIEL WOULD NEVER LEAVE THEM. 
 

However, as a result of the cross, God WOULD separate Himself from His people. He would make them “desolate” from Him for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles). There could be no greater punishment than to be separated or made “desolate” from their Holy God. 
 

43 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Unbelieving Jews, naturally, would love to have a temple if they could get away with it.

It doesn’t matter what they think or try to do. Unless they (Jew or Gentile) accept Jesus they will not see salvation. They or anyone on this planet can build all the Temples or Buddha statues or whatever they want… they will be destroyed by His second coming. 

[dad2]

Quote

I believe there are 4 and only 4 kingdoms established by God. Each is symbolized by a specific “metal” type. The clay is within the iron feet (4th kingdom of Rome) and represents His people that have been restored to Jerusalem from Babylon.

Except you made that up. The bible did not say that

Quote

 The timing of the striking of the feet by the Stone occurs in the last week of the 70th week of years prophecy. The Messiah does not destroy the image by striking the feet but is meant to separate or break apart His people (clay) from the iron kingdom. 

Actually it says this

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

That means all the material in the image. So yes He does destroy and break it into pieces no less.

 

Quote

No, the Stone represents the first coming of the Messiah and He would not come as the Jews expected Him to come - as a conquering king like King David who would destroy the Romans. Instead, He came to “divide” and through the cross He would “separate” those of His people that would accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) versus those who would reject Him (ceramic clay). 

False. The ten toes are the last powers in the image. It all got broken up by Jesus in the end and He rules. That did not happen the first coming.

Quote

This is why you will see the separate parties / elements in chapter 7 - they are no longer kept within the iron kingdom feet. 

Agree. Verse 2:34 represents the first coming of the Messiah when He will “set up” His earthly Kingdom. His people (pottery clay) will go out into the Roman Empire and preach the Good News to the Gentiles. 
 

The time of the Gentiles will be for some 2000 years and then verse 2:35 will apply. The Messiah will return and the end will come. 

The times of the Gentiles also is only over when He returns. You are not even close on any of this, we have nothing to fine tune here. Stick to the topic.

Quote

Of course there is a definite purpose! The AOD, or the “Abomination that CAUSES desolation” represents ONLY ONE EVENT- the crucifixion of the Messiah! 

The AOD spoken of by Daniel and referred to by Jesus involves the end time actually

Again, you should stick to the topic, the babblings about general prophesy are not worthy of further time.

[Charlie744]

Well, I can see this discussion may not last very long. So, tell me your kingdoms and why.

 

 

27 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Actually it says this

Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

I certainly will agree with you that 2:34 IS viewed and treated to be an end time event (actually they / almost everyone treats 2:34 and 2:35) to take place at the same time- end times, but that is a huge misinterpretation.

It says “them” into pieces and then mentions the iron and the clay. 
 

Verse 2:34 is His first coming and it is supported by verses 2:41-43. If you would like to interpret these few verses in support of 2:34 being an end time event, I would like to hear it. 

27 minutes ago, dad2 said:

That means all the material in the image. So yes He does destroy and break it into pieces no less.

No, the first coming of the Messiah was to “divide” not destroy. The 4 kingdoms are not destroyed by the time of the cross. He (Jesus) was CUT OUT of / from the MOUNTAIN (God). This only occurred at His first coming. 
 

Otherwise, can you tell me what CAUSED the break out of the elements from chapter 2 to 7? Certainly, God would use very different symbols from the metal man image of chapter 2, but there is still the changes to the 4th kingdom (within the 4th kingdom). Also, are there not 4 kingdoms shown in chapters 2,7,8 and 11? (Chapter 8 only discusses 3 of the 4 though)?

 

27 minutes ago, dad2 said:

 

False. The ten toes are the last powers in the image. It all got broken up by Jesus in the end and He rules. That did not happen the first coming.

No, the 10 toes were in existence when pagan Rome took power. The Stone in 2:34 came after Nebuchadnezzar’s description of the 4 kingdoms. 

27 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The times of the Gentiles also is only over when He returns. You are not even close on any of this, we have nothing to fine tune here. Stick to the topic.

I will look forward to your responses and perhaps less of your arrogance. 

27 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The AOD spoken of by Daniel and referred to by Jesus involves the end time actually

Why do you say that? Can you describe what the AOD is and why?

27 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Again, you should stick to the topic, the babblings about general prophesy are not worthy of further time.

I have a feeling you are correct here… but you do have the opportunity to try and explain your conclusions. So, regarding the AOD, what is your AOD and why?

 

[dad2]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Well, I can see this discussion may not last very long. So, tell me your kingdoms and why.

 

 

I certainly will agree with you that 2:34 IS viewed and treated to be an end time event (actually they / almost everyone treats 2:34 and 2:35) to take place at the same time- end times, but that is a huge misinterpretation.

It says “them” into pieces and then mentions the iron and the clay. 
 

Verse 2:34 is His first coming and it is supported by verses 2:41-43. If you would like to interpret these few verses in support of 2:34 being an end time event, I would like to hear it. 

No, the first coming of the Messiah was to “divide” not destroy. The 4 kingdoms are not destroyed by the time of the cross. He (Jesus) was CUT OUT of / from the MOUNTAIN (God). This only occurred at His first coming. 
 

Otherwise, can you tell me what CAUSED the break out of the elements from chapter 2 to 7? Certainly, God would use very different symbols from the metal man image of chapter 2, but there is still the changes to the 4th kingdom (within the 4th kingdom). Also, are there not 4 kingdoms shown in chapters 2,7,8 and 11? (Chapter 8 only discusses 3 of the 4 though)?

 

No, the 10 toes were in existence when pagan Rome took power. The Stone in 2:34 came after Nebuchadnezzar’s description of the 4 kingdoms. 

I will look forward to your responses and perhaps less of your arrogance. 

Why do you say that? Can you describe what the AOD is and why?

I have a feeling you are correct here… but you do have the opportunity to try and explain your conclusions. So, regarding the AOD, what is your AOD and why?

 

The important thing about the abomination of desolation, is that when we see that, there is only 3 1/2 years left. That means it never happened in history

Daniel 12:11

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[Charlie744]

18 minutes ago, dad2 said:

The important thing about the abomination of desolation, is that when we see that, there is only 3 1/2 years left. That means it never happened in history

Daniel 12:11

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Well, that was only one of the few questions I requested you to answer… 

I have given you my basis for the AID as well as the timing and the subsequent verses in 2:41-43 that also speak to this interpretation. Further, chapter 7 also supports this action as His first time event. 
 

I would hope you will offer your thoughts and support for your opinions on the interpretations of mine that you so quickly dismissed.

 

Please take a look at the previous response of mind and give your reasoning supporter / verses , etc. 

Above you merely quoted 12:11 but that does nothing to support an “interpretation.” It is just recording a verse. Please unpack 12:11 to reveal its interpretation to you. 

 

[dad2]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Well, that was only one of the few questions I requested you to answer… 

I have given you my basis for the AID as well as the timing and the subsequent verses in 2:41-43 that also speak to this interpretation. Further, chapter 7 also supports this action as His first time event. 
 

I would hope you will offer your thoughts and support for your opinions on the interpretations of mine that you so quickly dismissed.

 

Please take a look at the previous response of mind and give your reasoning supporter / verses , etc. 

Above you merely quoted 12:11 but that does nothing to support an “interpretation.” It is just recording a verse. Please unpack 12:11 to reveal its interpretation to you. 

 

From the time of A till the time of B there is 3 1/2 years. A is the time of the abomination set up and B is the end when He comes. That can only happen once and it has to be future

[Charlie744]

14 minutes ago, dad2 said:

From the time of A till the time of B there is 3 1/2 years. A is the time of the abomination set up and B is the end when He comes. That can only happen once and it has to be future

Well, that answers everything. 
 

[dad2]

51 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Well, that answers everything. 
 

Yes, it shows that the AOD was not in history, but future

[Charlie744]

42 minutes ago, dad2 said:

Yes, it shows that the AOD was not in history, but future

What is the AOD?

What verse or verses provide your support?

When did it occur or in your case, when will it occur?

What causes it to occur?

What exactly is the “abomination”?

What exactly is the definition of the desolation ”?

Why does it NOT refer to the worse event in the history of mankind?

What event could be worse than could come in the future?

Did not God turn His face away from His people after they rejected and crucified Him (last 2000 years)?

Is this not why He turned to the Gentiles?

 Can you tie this “abomination of desolation” with certain verses in chapter 9 and 12, Matthew, Mark and Luke?

Please try and be specific as best you can… 

 

[dad2]

26 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

What is the AOD?

What verse or verses provide your support?

When did it occur or in your case, when will it occur?

What causes it to occur?

What exactly is the “abomination”?

What exactly is the definition of the desolation ”?

Why does it NOT refer to the worse event in the history of mankind?

What event could be worse than could come in the future?

Did not God turn His face away from His people after they rejected and crucified Him (last 2000 years)?

Is this not why He turned to the Gentiles?

 Can you tie this “abomination of desolation” with certain verses in chapter 9 and 12, Matthew, Mark and Luke?

Please try and be specific as best you can… 

 

No, God turned to gentiles because Israel rejected Him. Not because of some future mid tribulation event to come. Whatever it is it starts mid trib and ends when Jesus returns. Any guesses you may have as to 'what' it will be of how to define it do not matter.