What really does the New Testament reveal in terms of “tribulation and great tribulation”

[tatwo]

On 5/16/2024 at 12:45 PM, tatwo said:

For starters...answer me this if you can and so desire Charlie...who is the man spoken of by Daniel in chapter 10:5-7 and 12:6-7? And do you see them as the same man?

On 5/16/2024 at 2:44 PM, Charlie744 said:

I believe both verses are referring to the Messiah. 
I look forward to seeing how / why you brought these two verses into this… appreciate it! Charlie 

Yahshua the Messiah...and most of those who study these prophetic writings believe similarly...though I have heard some say angels, strange creatures, and that they have no idea...the rest understandably...are not concerned about it. In part I would agree that Yahshua the Messiah is certainly in view here…though I am of the opinion…this alone…is not the “fulfillment” of this “prophetic vision” Charlie. No…and the scriptures reveal otherwise as well.

I chose those examples…because I know you have studied them deeply and written extensively about them as well. I thought they may provide an opportunity for me to share with you…a seemingly hungry son of God…something that I have learned in them…leading us to something greater.

Those passages have been written since Daniel (roughly 620 to 536 BC) penned them while in captivity in Babylon…they and their meanings have not changed since. The Spirit of God…had Daniel…inscribe the words that…God wanted written…and He meant what He “said.”

It’s clear that Daniel himself did not understand everything he “heard, seen and wrote.” In fact Daniel himself said the same Ch. 12…”As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" This can serve as one example but it does not stop there…the one speaking to Daniel responded…“He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.”

My focus here at this point and at this time…is “not” the revealing, meaning or understanding of what was said and who the "man above the water is"...here Charlie…though we may get to that. I would like to focus upon 2 things here…1. Daniel "heard and wrote" but could not understand…and 2. Though he heard them and likely wrote them down as well…he Daniel…was not granted access to the understanding...for good reason.

Here is the reason…for these “words” were to stay “a secret…hidden in God” and additionally they were kept that way under the…“seal”…of almighty God.

This is interesting and a sufficient point of contention for most…meaning…that until the “seal” of God is...broke the “understanding” the “prophetic meaning” of these “words”…which literally anyone has access to…incidentally…which essentially is how it has been since the day Daniel wrote them…that...until that which has been sealed by God…is unsealed by God…though untold numbers have read these words over the millennia…there will be no Truth in understanding or revelation for them…until the “end age.”

Then there is the 'revealing of what was hidden" and the issue of the removal of the "seal."

I'll continue...

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

Perhaps you are already apprised of these basic truths Charlie…I mean no offense in any way…no insult to you or anyone…and I certainly do not want to waste anyone’s time…it is my hope that this will serve as a practical basis from which to “work forward” if you will. If I am at times redundant…bear with me if you can…I too am learning.

People “hear” things from the bible all the time…all they have to do is read it with an elementary comprehension. However what we are seeing here in this example of Daniel’s writings is…that though the words are available, intelligible and comprehendible…there can also be a “hidden spiritual understanding or revelation” that is also “age appropriate and sealed for a specific time”…in this case until the “end time.”

It is this truth in principle…Charlie that I wish to communicate to you…if you are not already in possession of it to some degree? While Daniels words are long written and read…whatever God intended as “His meaning” for the “written words” literally cannot be not be known outside of His stated conditions.

Here we see our Lord showing us that He has “hidden” within the common vernacular…if you will…His own meanings…“hidden”…meaning they are out of “sight” to the typical and casual reader…who comprehends the words well and good. They are ”sealed” by the “signet ring of God” so to speak…which seal can only be broken by the one in possession of the signet ring itself…Christ.

In my conclusion for now…allow me to suggest a thought for moving forward…in the next post.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

In 1st Corinthians 2 Paul illuminates a spiritual wisdom and understanding that they only speak among those who are “mature.” He further designates this “wisdom” as…”not of this age”…very similar to what Daniel was told…not for this age Daniel…a striking similarity for sure.

Interestingly he…Paul…says “we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery”…further defining it as “the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory”…Paul is pointing to “their” access to an “eternal and Spirit born wisdom.” What are the chances that he understood that which Daniel did not…but I digress.

Additionally…Paul lets us know that this “wisdom spoken in a mystery among the mature that comes from eternity Himself”…that…”none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” Hence the “hidden Word” wrapped in a “mystery” and “sealed up” for not only a time frame…but for a mature spiritual people.  

Just a bit further on…Paul makes a very open proclamation concerning the revealing of “Gods wisdom in a mystery…His hidden wisdom from eternity…he says…”but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”

One must understand that here Paul is referring to mere carnal lost worldly and religious humanity…”not to those who love Him”…these have no access to God…they have not seen and they have not heard and they have not received…what God has for them…its hidden, veiled…he clarifies that…in the next verse

Now speaking for those who have the Holy Spirit…perhaps He’s the signet ring that opens the “seal?”

Paul writes…“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit”…so much for understanding “hidden wisdom and mysteries in God and from scripture” simply via the comprehension of mere human reasoning…even though the written words can be read by all.   

This next part is very important for us at this point in our journey here…“for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.” So...for those who are mature…and have learned or been taught how to interact with the Holy Spirit that must indwell them…it is they who are able to search into the depths of God…hummm?

The following verse…11…”For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.”

We are being shown that...a man…who has the Holy Spirit of the living God in their spirit…and is considered one who is “mature”…can access the “eternal thoughts of God” hidden in another age...via a life lived as a living sacrifice for Gods purposes…acceptable unto God…which is your spiritual service of worship.

The revelation of who "Christ" is...He who is eternal...is essential Charlie...for all hidden wisdom and revealed mysteries in eternity and in the scriptures are revealed to Him "only" by His Father.

Most folks claiming to be "in Christ" are only aware of part of that revelation...I mean think about it Bro...Christ is eternal...and the sons of God are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...and in this...predestined to to adoption as sons through the Lord Yahshua Christ Himself...how well does anyone you know understand eternity...let alone withdraw from it what God has for them and others? 

Tatwo...:)

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, tatwo said:

Yahshua the Messiah...and most of those who study these prophetic writings believe similarly...though I have heard some say angels, strange creatures, and that they have no idea...the rest understandably...are not concerned about it. In part I would agree that Yahshua the Messiah is certainly in view here…though I am of the opinion…this alone…is not the “fulfillment” of this “prophetic vision” Charlie. No…and the scriptures reveal otherwise as well.

I chose those examples…because I know you have studied them deeply and written extensively about them as well. I thought they may provide an opportunity for me to share with you…a seemingly hungry son of God…something that I have learned in them…leading us to something greater.

Those passages have been written since Daniel (roughly 620 to 536 BC) penned them while in captivity in Babylon…they and their meanings have not changed since. The Spirit of God…had Daniel…inscribe the words that…God wanted written…and He meant what He “said.”

It’s clear that Daniel himself did not understand everything he “heard, seen and wrote.” In fact Daniel himself said the same Ch. 12…”As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?" This can serve as one example but it does not stop there…the one speaking to Daniel responded…“He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.”

My focus here at this point and at this time…is “not” the revealing, meaning or understanding of what was said and who the "man above the water is"...here Charlie…though we may get to that. I would like to focus upon 2 things here…1. Daniel "heard and wrote" but could not understand…and 2. Though he heard them and likely wrote them down as well…he Daniel…was not granted access to the understanding...for good reason.

Here is the reason…for these “words” were to stay “a secret…hidden in God” and additionally they were kept that way under the…“seal”…of almighty God.

This is interesting and a sufficient point of contention for most…meaning…that until the “seal” of God is...broke the “understanding” the “prophetic meaning” of these “words”…which literally anyone has access to…incidentally…which essentially is how it has been since the day Daniel wrote them…that...until that which has been sealed by God…is unsealed by God…though untold numbers have read these words over the millennia…there will be no Truth in understanding or revelation for them…until the “end age.”

Then there is the 'revealing of what was hidden" and the issue of the removal of the "seal."

I'll continue...

Tatwo...:)

Very nice!

What immediately came to mind after reading your response is two things:

1) twice in Daniel he is told to seal up or shut up the words found … until the end. 
 

a) I firmly believe the first time it is mentioned it does not refer to the “end times.” Instead, it refers to the time of the end of the most important prophecy in the history of mankind. That is, the prophecies specifically speak to a time well after Daniel - the end of the 490 years (70 weeks of years prophecy) when the Jews have completed their obligations to restore Jerusalem after the Babylonian destruction, AND, the arrival of the Messiah on the first day of the 70th week. 
 

  b) And I certainly agree with you that Daniel is acting as a “scribe” here in he is recording only what God allows him to see. 
 

 c) Further, I also agree Daniel has very little understanding of what these prophetic verses are meaning… certainly, he could not possibly understand the coming Messiah in the form of a man and then his God being crucified by his people. 
 

  d) I do not believe God allowed Daniel to understand these horrible prophecies- the cross, etc. God specifically mentioned how He loved Daniel and Daniel had been put through a life of issues (many life threatening) and he never disobeyed his God and lost faith in Him. Consequently, I don’t believe God would allow Daniel to understand such things as the cross… He saved him from that knowledge.

  e) In chapter 12 there is the second mention of the words being sealed or shut up. I believe this refers to the true “end times,” and not the end of the prophecy. 

    f) However, at no time - either the first mention that speaks to the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy or the “true end time” reference in chapter 12 is meant to tell us these words are secret or will not be understood. No, God’s words are made to be understood - the sealing up or shutting up is meant to convey not secrecy or not allowing one to understand but to deal or shut up because they are complete, finished. The prophecies have now been given in their entirety, they are complete, and there is nothing that will be added to it. 
 

    g) Again, Daniel did not understand the prophecies and the Jews at the time of Christ did not understand them, but we certainly realize they spoke of the coming Messiah. Therefore, both “end time” prophecies in Daniel do not speak of the same “end time period,” but they can and have been understood after the cross.