How can Christians graciously & compassionately argue against homosexuality, adultery, perversion, sexual assualt, rape, abortion alcohol and/or drug addiction?

[Tristen]

8 hours ago, RdJ said:

No not the preacher, but the one who works for the government doing weddings

I'd see this as akin to the nursing situation: If you apply for a job that entails unChristian behavior, then you can't complain when they expect unChristian behaviors from you. However, if you apply for a job under one set of conditions, and then the rules change to "force" you to go against your faith, that is discriminatory against the person of faith. With regards to respect for human rights, a state should not place one in a position to have to choose between their job and their faith.

Again - there is a reasonable solution. Rather than have the Christian sacrifice their right to religious freedom, they could let the Christian do their job as normal, and have someone else in the office perform the "weddings" of gay couples.

That would be the solution if equality and protection of human rights was really the goal. 

 

9 hours ago, RdJ said:

but that I find worse because it's murder and if 2 men marry for the govt or it's a sinful remarriage, that's equally bad, but it's their own business.

The gradation of sin is God's purview. There is no such thing as "2 men marry" in the eyes of God, since "marry" has always meant a union between a man and a woman. 

People outside of Christianity are free to live in whatever manner they please. However, hijacking the term "marriage" for gay unions undermines "marriage" in general (across all of society) - which is no-doubt the goal of the-powers-that-be.

 

9 hours ago, RdJ said:

You said:

There is only One Who's approval matters.

A state-administered "piece of paper" has no transcendent meaning or value. 

 

It has. Malachi says your legal wife

Malachi 2:14
Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.

This "covenant" has nothing to do with state recognition.

 

9 hours ago, RdJ said:

If a christian marries an atheist but not in church God still sees them as married

If it is a "covenant" promise between a man and a women, then yes - that is what "marriage" has always meant (until recently).

 

9 hours ago, RdJ said:

Nowadays they want an excuse to live in sin and say: we don't need a paper.

Therefore, gay couples being desperate to call their unions "marriages" (and getting their way) correlates to the rest of society having a diminished respect for "marriage".

 

9 hours ago, RdJ said:

But a paper doesn't necessarily make God approve. I bet Herod had a paper too.

Agreed. God has no respect for paperwork produced by the state.

 

[WilliamL]

On 5/21/2024 at 6:47 PM, bartmac123 said:

A while back, I was debating with a nominal Catholic relative of mine about why same-sex marriage was sinful.
My nominal Catholic relative said that she felt that it was wrong to reject same-sex marriage because Christian can Not enforce their Christian view of marriage on others who are Not Christian.  She essentially felt that homosexuals' rights should be respected, and Christians can Not criticize the LGBTQ+ approval and acceptance of same-sex marriage because their perspectives are Not the same as Christians.

My immediate response was more aligned with "fire and brimstone preaching" by passionately criticizing the LGBTQ+ culture by using the following scriptures:

Even though the aforementioned bible verses and passages are correct in condemning LGBTQ+ culture, I was Not satisfied with how I debated with my relative.  The reason being is that I was quick to condemn by resorting to "fire and brimstone preaching"

It made me think by asking the following question:

"How can Christians graciously & compassionately argue against homosexuality, adultery, perversion, sexual assualt, rape, abortion alcohol and/or drug addiction?"

Please do Not misunderstand me.  The use of "fire and brimstone" biblical passages and verses certainly have their place in defending Christian values.   However, "fire and brimstone" biblical passages and verses should Not be the sole approach, and in many cases Not the first step in arguing against homosexuality, adultery, perversion, sexual assualt, rape, abortion alcohol and/or drug addiction.

"How can Christians graciously & compassionately argue against homosexuality, adultery, perversion, sexual assualt, rape, abortion alcohol and/or drug addiction?"

Simplest argument is that 6000 years of human history has demonstrated that societies that accept homosexuality as a normal behavior collapse, and it doesn't take all that long for it to happen. As we are in the process of seeing in our own society.

Corrupted interpersonal relationships always lead to a lack of civility (seeing any lack of civility in the news??); lack of civility leads to chaos; and chaos destroys a society.

[bartmac123]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Simplest argument is that 6000 years of human history has demonstrated that societies that accept homosexuality as a normal behavior collapse, and it doesn't take all that long for it to happen. As we are in the process of seeing in our own society.

Corrupted interpersonal relationships always lead to a lack of civility (seeing any lack of civility in the news??); lack of civility leads to chaos; and chaos destroys a society.

Other than Genesis 19:4-38’s account of Sodom and Gomorrah’s
destruction due to sinful homosexuality, I Personally do Not know of
any other society that was destroyed or fell into decay due to
homosexuality.  What other societies in the world fell due to the
tolerance and embracing of the Homosexual/LGBTQ+ lifestyle?

I want to give credit to  @AnOrangeCat who responded with the
following in a post:

Quote

“for people who reject the Bible you might well have to look outside
the Bible. Let's look at homosexuality. Past editions of the DSM (the
manual for diagnosing mental illness) included homosexuality and
transgender as mental illnesses. This naturally drew a lot of
criticism and was considered offensive. A lot of Christians take the
position that it's a choice rather than an illness, but I personally
think that at the very least a comparison to illness is warranted. An
illness hinders your ability to function, and if it overcomes your
body's defenses it can potentially kill you. What's one of the basic
functions of life? Reproduction. What would happen if all of humanity
became homosexual? We'd cease to perform one of our basic functions
and die out as a species. It's not an argument that's for every person
or situation but it is one you can potentially use that doesn't rely
on the Bible to make its point.”

Furthermore, I would like start off by describing to supporters of the LGBTQ+ rights "what it is supposed to be" , and only secondarily tell them "what it's Not supposed to be"

To elaborate, if a LGBTQ+ rights supporter ask me why I Disagree with
the LGBTQ+ lifestyle,  I would start off by saying "what it is
supposed to be" which can be described in the Ephesians 5:25-27
 

Quote

 

Ephesians 5:25-27

New American Standard Bible 1995

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and
gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having
cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might
present to Himself the church [a]in all her glory, having no spot or
wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

 

In Ephesians 5:25-27, the bible describes to us that Husbands(being
the males) should Love their Wives(being the females) just like Jesus
Christ(being the male) Loved the church( being the female).
Essentially, I would tell the LGBTQ+ supporter that the biblical
passage of Ephesians 5:25-27 describes what the proper marriage life
is supposed to be like which is between a male and a female.

As time goes by, and my debate with the LGBTQ+ supporter progressively
continues, I can secondarily tell them that the  Leviticus 18:22 bible
verse and the narrative in the Genesis 19:4-38 bible passage describe
"what it's Not supposed to be".  In other words, my biblical reasons
as to why I believe LGBTQ+ lifestyle is sinful:

Quote

 Leviticus 18:22
New American Standard Bible 1995

22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an
abomination.

It's a lot better to start off with "what it is supposed to be", and
then go on to secondarily mention "what it's Not supposed to be"

[Neighbor]

17 minutes ago, bartmac123 said:

I Personally do Not know of
any other society that was destroyed or fell into decay due to
homosexuality.  What other societies in the world fell due to the
tolerance and embracing of the Homosexual/LGBTQ+ lifestyle?

Well currently there is the USA. A land of rampant violence utter insanity and much despair. It used to be  a bread basket populated by a generous people sharing of themselves, now much of it's population champions me first me first and the hell with you. It is post Christian USA.

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, bartmac123 said:

Other than Genesis 19:4-38’s account of Sodom and Gomorrah’s
destruction due to sinful homosexuality, I Personally do Not know of
any other society that was destroyed or fell into decay due to
homosexuality.  What other societies in the world fell due to the
tolerance and embracing of the Homosexual/LGBTQ+ lifestyle?

 

I've not had much interaction in person with LGBTQ+ folks, but I've had some online.  My one time, admittedly anecdotal experience, taught me that I was conversing with others (professing believers . . .mostly) who had come under a serious blinding because of the homosexual sin they were practicing.  You can say that any sin is blinding, but this seemed to be a particularly strong darkness - clear verses on the subject of homosexuality were twisted into completely different meanings, etc. (i.e, totally favoring the practice).

Then the conversation devolved more and more until wild accusations were taking place - saying that those just presenting scripture were intolerant haters.  (The idea I, and others were making, is that it is an error/off-the-mark, much like other sins of the flesh - these ones could not see it was off the mark at all, but rather something God purposed!)  Through this I began to see a level of irrationality that was quite exceeding and "wild."  Bottom-line:  things got exceptionally weird and my spirit became really distressed and sad for those guys . . . the Anointing was telling me it was time to break off any communication with this ones.

Again, this was my anecdotal evidence, based on just that particular experience (which took place over a few months).  I've heard similar things from other believers trying to lovingly confront LGBTQ+.

 

[Marathoner]

20 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I've not had much interaction in person with LGBTQ+ folks, but I've had some online.  My one time, admittedly anecdotal experience, taught me that I was conversing with others (professing believers . . .mostly) who had come under a serious blinding because of the homosexual sin they were practicing.  You can say that any sin is blinding, but this seemed to be a particularly strong darkness - clear verses on the subject of homosexuality were twisted into completely different meanings, etc. (i.e, totally favoring the practice).

Then the conversation devolved more and more until wild accusations were taking place - saying that those just presenting scripture were intolerant haters.  (The idea I, and others were making, is that it is an error/off-the-mark, much like other sins of the flesh - these ones could not see it was off the mark at all, but rather something God purposed!)  Through this I began to see a level of irrationality that was quite exceeding and "wild."  Bottom-line:  things got exceptionally weird and my spirit became really distressed and sad for those guys . . . the Anointing was telling me it was time to break off any communication with this ones.

Again, this was my anecdotal evidence, based on just that particular experience (which took place over a few months).  I've heard similar things from other believers trying to lovingly confront LGBTQ+.

 

One thing to keep in mind: the Spirit of the Lord convicts the world regarding sin (ref. John 16). This is to say that those who engage in such things are without excuse. No one in the world can say, "I didn't know!" They do indeed, for this conviction is part of His work. 

The Spirit was not sent into the world only for our benefit. He was sent for the sake of all mankind. He testifies of Christ. I ought to know that well, seeing as how that is what the Spirit did for me; it's how I came to Christ. This is something quite a few overlook or forget, brother. 

Edited June 3, 2024 by Marathoner
typo

[WilliamL]

On 6/2/2024 at 5:28 PM, bartmac123 said:

Other than Genesis 19:4-38’s account of Sodom and Gomorrah’s
destruction due to sinful homosexuality, I Personally do Not know of
any other society that was destroyed or fell into decay due to
homosexuality.  What other societies in the world fell due to the
tolerance and embracing of the Homosexual/LGBTQ+ lifestyle?

Many such examples. Such as under King Manasseh of Judah, the worst of the Jewish kings, who brought the land to its lowest state ever. Josiah's reform included:

2 Kings 23:7 ...he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.

Likewise when the righteous king Asa followed the evil King Abijam:

1 Kings 15:12 ...he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

Sodomy became the great sin, and the downfall, of Sparta. Likewise of Rome, including during the reign of Nero, the last ruler of the Julian line: he married a 16-year old boy. His perverseness was too much for even the sexually liberal Roman world. The acceptableness of sodomy by a society is generally accompanied by other perversions of sexuality, and is as much a symptom as a cause for the collapse of that society.

So now let's turn the question around, and put it back to you (and others): what society can you name that has thrived where sodomy was widely practiced and accepted?

Leviticus 18:22 ‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 ‘Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion. 24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 ‘For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants.

Hear the word of the Lord: He wasn't just being mean, He was telling us what naturally transpires when people corrupt sexuality; which was designed by God for a certain and exclusive use only.

Edited June 6, 2024 by WilliamL