Breaking with tradition

[timf]

How do you estimate Online Assemblies like this one fare in terms of Christian Life and Service?

There is a short booklet titled "What My Parent's Church Should Have Taught Them". It is told from the perspective of a personal testimony and might be seen as a critque of contemporary Christian practice;

Free pdf version   https://christianpioneer.com/ebooks/wmpcshtt.pdf

Viewable web pages    https://christianpioneer.com/cphone ebooks/pchurch/pchurch main.htm

The booklet ends with an emphasis on what sort of compensatory steps might be taken given that so many of us struggle with having received inadequate or even flawed instruction.

Web sites like Worthy Christian fulfill a need many of us have to share our experiences and views in an attempt to grow and mature on our own. One might view it as a triage center without doctors where the less wounded try to help those more seriously wounded.

 

[unworthyservant]

I have for some time now, studied the teachings of men and compared them to the teachings of Christ and the commandments of God. It is these teachings and the traditions that emerge from them that have splintered the "Christian" community into an estimated 45,000 denominations worldwide. I find that they permeate every denomination which I have researched to some degree or another and compromise the bulk of beliefs in many. The Gospel of Christ and the commandments of God are fairly self explanatory when you take away the teachings and traditions of men. Unfortunately,men have had over 2000 years to add their own 2 cents worth to those teachings and sometimes it's difficult to convince those who wish to follow Christ that 2000 years of tradition may indeed be wrong or sinful in the eyes of God.

[Anne2]

On 5/23/2024 at 2:03 AM, JohnD said:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Do you think this (testament) might be speaking of the covenant of Levi? 

Mal 2:4  And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8  But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

Which the order of Aaron, the ministration of high priest is the anointing in his stead when he dies?

19  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
20  This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night.
21  In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
22  And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.
 

 

 

The priests served from 30 to 50 years old.....No death needed to serve in the service of their priesthood.

But the high priest serves until death, and the son who is anointed serves, only through the death of his father.

If this is the case, I am not getting the application of the rest of your post too clearly 

[DeighAnn]

On 5/23/2024 at 6:32 AM, RdJ said:

John says if you hate your brother you are in darkness. The misleading is: go on and keep hating, don't repent and God will forgive you anyway. That's nonsense from Calvin who had people killed.

They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.
John 16:2‭-‬3 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.16.2-3.NKJV

 

Ian McCormack got saved just before he died. He had to forgive the men who refused to help him and let him die. Otherwise God could not forgive him.

 

If you can just hate the pharisees could have gotten 'saved' too.

 

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love [c]his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

I have a real problem with this, is it misleading?   Hopefully you can persuade me to see it as you do, if it be GODS TRUTH.  


Where do I find I must forgive my enemies if they do not ask for it, if they are not repentant, if it brings them joy to hurt one of Gods sheep because they are evil?   


So, who is your brother/brethren?  Aren't they those of His seed, or brother of the womb, even a good samaritan...is there anyone called 'a brother' who is of the evil one?

21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matthew 18:21 

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. 25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Here the context is of tresspasses, isn't it?

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. Luke 17:3 

And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:4 



Who was 'forgiven' without any repentance and asking?  (excepting, of course, we who have been 'saved' through faith and do not go to hell because of one sin, being under the blood of the Lamb ect.)



 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

To ME and my understanding, taking a Christian and telling them if they don't forgive the most evil wicked vile human that has no remorse whatsoever who may have just destroyed their lives or THEY can't be saved is almost just as bad as the one who committed the crime because on the ONE hand, they are as  'sheep to the slaughter' knowing GOD will get vengeance...

while the other turns THEM into the sinner with nothing but GUILT and the questing of 'who they are' because they CAN'T forgive an EVIL that GOD will  will get vengeance for when they have, in every other way, been practicing righteousness 


 

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

3900 paráptōma (from 3895 /parapíptō, see there) – properly, fall away after being close-beside, i.e. a lapse (deviation) from the truth; an error, "slip up"; wrong doing that can be (relatively) unconscious, "non-deliberate."


 NOT deliberately being evil and liking it, just don't know better.   



 

[DeighAnn]

This far, for most of them


 Isaiah 28...
 

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

And since they didn't learn it that way, they didn't teach it that way but they did the here a little there a little instead...and didn't bother with the schoolteacher, so...

 

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The direct cause of


20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.


20  And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.






 

[JohnD]

Um... Jesus is the Testator of the New Testament.

The point is that the Old Testament was in effect until the cross of Christ.
The New Testament did not begin until then:

Matthew 27:50

Mark 15:37

Luke 23:46

John 19:30

Everything before these scripture references is OLD Testament.

The Sermon on the Mount is Old Testament... etc.

 

[Anne2]

50 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Um... Jesus is the Testator of the New Testament.

The Testator is who DESIGNATES all they have upon their death, to an heir, or heirs. The priesthood was the inheritance of Levi. They had no Inheritance with Israel...

Abraham asked: How shall I know I will inherit it? God made the covenant  a will of inheritance for Abraham, and his seed were heirs of it. You cannot create a will for what you do not have....

Jos 18:7  But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance: and Gad, and Reuben, and half the tribe of Manasseh, have received their inheritance beyond Jordan on the east, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.
Gesus is  the mediator of the new covenant

Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. {covenant: or, testament }
Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant:

50 minutes ago, JohnD said:

The point is that the Old Testament was in effect until the cross of Christ.

Yes, I agree. The 4 gospels are indeed for the Jew's to provide escape The wrath of God coming upon Jew's. Because Jew's are judged by the law.... Salvation to escape that is about the new  covenant that accomplished that, not just for Jew's but Gentiles also who die apart from the law.

Edited April 3 by Anne2

[In1]

On 5/23/2024 at 5:03 AM, JohnD said:

An example of how easily misled mankind (human beings) are:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (KJV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This innocuous passage prove that most Bibles and most Christian circles fail to even rightly divide the word of truth categorically:

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

For tradition has placed the dividing line between Old and New Testaments between Malachi 4:6 and Matthew 1:1. Bibles, study Bibles, commentaries, Bible  software often contain bold title or even a title page between the two verses "NEW TESTAMENT" when clearly Hebrews 9:16-17 states the Old Testament did not end and the New Testament did not begin until the death of our LORD on the cross.

So what's the big deal?

It IS a big deal!

Everything prior to the death of the LORD Jesus on the cross is Old Testament and under the Law of Moses. Not understanding this or acknowledging this fact is a hole that legalism passes through to taint the theology of Grace.

Example:

Matthew 6:14–15 (KJV)
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That is Old Covenant Old Testament law (Isaiah 58:5-6 / Exodus 23:21).

There are many such examples where legalism and the satanic mingling of the two covenants occurs by simply putting the dividing line between the two covenants in the wrong place.

And notice how universally misled the Church has been.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

New Covenant New Testament Grace is:

1. Christ died for all human sin (1 Timothy 4:10 / 1 John 2:2)

2. Faith alone in Christ Jesus alone activates this grace in our individual lives (John 3:16-18 Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29, John 16:27)

For me, the only place the word can rightly be divided is at the cross ... which to left or right of hangs a thief ...

Edited May 6 by In1

[In1]

On 3/31/2025 at 5:31 AM, timf said:

If we use the yardstick of what was supposed to happen for each Christian (grow into Christ-likeness), it is difficult to see in most Christian practice any "Success";

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Some of the major mistakes we have made might be viewed as;

1. Administering Christianity as an organizational system. This tends to reduce Christianity to a mechanical series of event, programs, classes, rituals, and activities.

2. Presenting Christianity as agreement with doctrinal bullet points rather than the transformative power of trusting in Jesus.

3. Seeing Christianity as divorced from real life such as something only relevant for a couple of hours on Sunday mornings.

 

(On your 1st bullet point) ... I find for good or bad that we are mostly taught by what we see and hear ... which reinforces the way we perceive others as well as ourselves in relationship to the proximity of God ... and this ever increasing kingdom ... most of what is reinforced by the institutions of the day is contrary to truth residing in us ... though it's all part of the process happening in us, it serves only to hinder us much like a tare would in a field full of wheat

Edited May 6 by In1

[Alive]

On 4/2/2025 at 9:20 PM, JohnD said:

Um... Jesus is the Testator of the New Testament.

The point is that the Old Testament was in effect until the cross of Christ.
The New Testament did not begin until then:

Matthew 27:50

Mark 15:37

Luke 23:46

John 19:30

Everything before these scripture references is OLD Testament.

The Sermon on the Mount is Old Testament... etc.

 

Yes, I agree and it is indeed important to bring this understanding to our studies.

Amen.