Justice at the judgement

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/11/2024 at 6:55 AM, FreeGrace said:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

For my Father's will is that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40

What have you actually seen of the Son?
Isn't the primary thing we have, the record of His actual words?

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
And I give unto them eternal life.

John 10:27-28

If you keep my commands you shall abide in my love.

John 15:10

He that does not keep my commands does not love me.

John 14:24

If any one does not love the Lord Jesus Christ,
let that person be Destined for destruction! (Anathema) Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the ones born of God.
Romans 8:14

 

 

 

On 6/11/2024 at 6:55 AM, FreeGrace said:

The text is clear.  That crowd was religious, but NOT saved, since Jesus said that He NEVER knew them.

Jesus was talking about WHOSOEVER, not just the 'crowd'.
When anyone stands before Him, if they did not actually put His teachings into practice Jesus will say that He never knew them.

"Why do you call me Lord Lord and do not the things that I say?"
Luke 6:46-49

That is the parallel passage to Matthew 7:21-28, giving us a clear message:
whoever at all hears His teachings and does not put them into practice...
that house will suffer a great ruin, that is what Christ clearly said.

We have the multiple accounts such that it is clear what is being said,
but modern men have taken it and twisted the meaning to suit
their lawless, rule-less message.

We don't have to make Jesus our Lord?
One can somehow sincerely believe that He died painfully for them,
and is their savior, without then understanding Him as Lord of their life?

If your about to fall off a cliff and a random person saves you,
would you feel like you owe that person anything?

 

On 6/11/2024 at 6:55 AM, FreeGrace said:

Trying to force works of any kind into how to be saved blasphemes the work of Christ on the cross.

 

A saved person works.

For neither circumcision avails anything nor un circumcision,
but faith that works by love.
Galatians 5:6

For faith without works is dead, being alone.
James 2:17

And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
Galatians 5:24

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the children of God.
Romans 8:14

 

I want to be able to eat from the tree of life, and enter through the gates into the heavenly city that comes down at the end, I believe that everything outside of the city will be on fire. Through and because of His indwelling Spirit, giving me self control among other fruits, I purpose to follow the simple teachings of Christ, and wash my mind if and when I find myself thinking in a way He would not like.
 

Blessed are they that keep the teachings of Jesus,
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter through the gates into the city.
Because outside.... are all those who love and practice a lie.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things in the Churches.

Revelation 22:14-16

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie1988]

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Let us therefore not be wicked lazy and unprofitable, but fruitful.

Fruit are the people we lead to Christ.

The only thing we can take with us into heaven are other people.

Our work of evangelism will be tested on the last day.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:4-23 is clearly speaking about the work of evangelism.

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed,
even as the Lord gave to every man
I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase"
1 Corinthians 3:5-7

"For we are laborers together with God, you are Gods husbandry,
you are Gods building" 1 Corinthians 3:9

"other foundation can no man lay than is already laid which is Jesus Christ"
1 Corinthians 3:11

[Lay the foundation of Christ, in you, that is, the Spirit, inside of you]
 [Foundation:
   One receives the Spirit upon belief: Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13
   Good building: And one is supposed to be led by the indwelling Spirit:
   Romans 8:14, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 3:5]

Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver,
precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every mans work shall be made manifest:
for the day (of the Lord) shall declare it;
for it shall be revealed by fire,
and the fire shall test every mans work,
of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:12-13

If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward. (the person you led to Christ goes to heaven)

If any man's work shall be burned,
he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved;
yet so as by fire. 
1 Corinthians 3:15

Paul is clearly talking about the building of a person,
you are Gods building.

Paul is talking about the work of evangelism.

And let's now ask Paul, what get's burned?

Know ye not that you are the temple of God?
and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If any man defiles the temple of God,
him will God burn
for the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17

 

That is what is being said in 1 Corinthians 3:4-17

 

 

 

 

I don't see 1 Cor 3:4-17 being limited to evangelism only. Yes evangelism is a big part of doing good works to receive a good reward in heaven. but we could include many other things, such as giving money to the Church and visiting sick brethren in hospital and hundreds of other good works which will all be rewarded in heaven. 

The way I see it, the scripture is speaking about testing our works by fire. So those works we did, which had a selfish motive will be burned up and we will suffer loss in the sense that our reward will be much smaller than if we had been more faithful and did our good works to bring glory and honor to God instead of ourselves. 

The most important aspect of evangelizing, is how we live our lives. It's no good sharing the gospel with anyone if we are not obeying it ourselves. The most effective way to share the gospel is to bare a good testimony ourselves. We need to be faithful, if we're going to have credibility with our family, friends and neighbors. 

Every man will be rewarded according to his works, this suggests that everyone will get a different reward according to his works. Many seem to think that everyone will be equal in heaven but there are many scriptures which make it clear that it's not the case at all.    

Edited June 17, 2024 by Charlie1988

[Desopixi Seilynam]

7 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

I don't see 1 Cor 3:4-17 being limited to evangelism only. Yes evangelism is a big part of doing good works to receive a good reward in heaven. but we could include many other things, such as giving money to the Church and visiting sick brethren in hospital and hundreds of other good works which will all be rewarded in heaven. 

That view is not from scripture.

Paul indeed is speaking about the work of evangelism
and whether what we build in a person survives on the day of the Lord or not.

"you are Gods building" is what Paul says,
then
"other foundation (of the building)
can no man lay than is laid which is Jesus Christ"

then
"if any build upon this foundation (of the building, which is you, a person)
every man's work shall be made manifest"

What modern preachers do is take verse 13 out of the context of verses 9 through 12,
only if we take 13-15 out of the context of the surrounding verses, can we glean any notion that Paul is talking about works in general, within its context, it is clear
Paul is speaking about building on top of a foundation, a foundation built inside of a person. You are Gods building.

Then Paul explains what "work" would remain;
any person that does not defile the temple.

 

There is no contextual way that the passage can be taken to mean
that in spite of wicked or absent works we would still enter heaven,
that is clearly not what Paul is saying.

Similar to the Matthew 25:14-30 passage, one reading the whole thing
comes away with the clear notion that we are to be productive for the Lord,
not just believe and then do nothing.

 

 

[Charlie1988]

29 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

That view is not from scripture.

Paul indeed is speaking about the work of evangelism
and whether what we build in a person survives on the day of the Lord or not.

"you are Gods building" is what Paul says,
then
"other foundation (of the building)
can no man lay than is laid which is Jesus Christ"

then
"if any build upon this foundation (of the building, which is you, a person)
every man's work shall be made manifest"

What modern preachers do is take verse 13 out of the context of verses 9 through 12,
only if we take 13-15 out of the context of the surrounding verses, can we glean any notion that Paul is talking about works in general, within its context, it is clear
Paul is speaking about building on top of a foundation, a foundation built inside of a person. You are Gods building.

Then Paul explains what "work" would remain;
any person that does not defile the temple.

 

There is no contextual way that the passage can be taken to mean
that in spite of wicked or absent works we would still enter heaven,
that is clearly not what Paul is saying.

Similar to the Matthew 25:14-30 passage, one reading the whole thing
comes away with the clear notion that we are to be productive for the Lord,
not just believe and then do nothing.

 

 

1 Corinthians 3 is interpreted differently, by those who hold to different theological views. The language Paul uses, leaves it open to interpretation.

In verse 7 he says that the one who plants and the one who waters are nothing. Then later in the passage he says they will be rewarded according to their work. Many struggle with this as it seems to suggest that mans part in building up the Church is nothing, then it mentions reward for our labor.

Paul was speaking to born again believers, who are already in Christ. He is described as the foundation in this instance but other scriptures describe Him as the Head of the body. The born again believers are are the members of His body. 

We can't build anything, God does all the building. He just uses us as instruments to to do His work. God made sure that nobody would have anything to boast about and that He would get all the glory and honor. I get the sense that most people think they will receive some glory for themselves, but the scriptures say we never will. 

Our reward is salvation from hell, that's the greatest reward we could ever hope for.    

      

[Desopixi Seilynam]

4 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

In verse 7 he says that the one who plants and the one who waters are nothing. Then later in the passage he says they will be rewarded according to their work. Many struggle with this as it seems to suggest that mans part in building up the Church is nothing, then it mentions reward for our labor.

Paul is speaking about building up people, yes the Church.

Paul is speaking about his own message, and the message that Apollos gave.

"And I, brethren could not speak to you as unto spiritual....
For while one says, I am of Paul, and another I am of Apollos....
I have planted, Apollos watered but God gave the increase."

The seed is the word of God. Luke 8:11

Paul is speaking about the messages he and Apollos gave,
Paul had told the Corinthians about Jesus, Apollos also,
each in their own way.

In full context the chapter can not be seen in any other way,
Paul is speaking about the work of evangelism, not works in general.

And Paul makes clear what gets destroyed,
those people who defile their temple.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,
murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts,
false witness, blasphemies:
these are the things which defile a man
Matthew 15:19-20

 

 

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

  FreeGrace said:

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

For my Father's will is that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him
shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.     John 6:40

What have you actually seen of the Son?

The verse doesn't say "see the Son".  It says "look TO the Son", which is a reference to Num 20:9,10 where Moses put a bronze snake on a pole for any Jew who was bitten by one of the poisonous snakes that were killing people, because of God's discipline towards the people's rebellion.  The command was "look to the snake" for salvation from physical death.

And Jesus used that in John 3:14 to equate "looking" to believing.  So John 6:40 says that those who believe in the Son "shall have eternal life", which is the same message as in John 5:24.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Isn't the primary thing we have, the record of His actual words?

It's the only thing.  Plus the indwelling Holy Spirit who is given to everyone who believes in the finished work of Christ on the cross for salvation.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
And I give unto them eternal life.  John 10:27-28

v.27 contains NO WORDS that create a condition for receiving eternal life.  Many people make that claim, but they are in error.  v.27 is a statement of what believers DO, or OUGHT TO DO.  It's a policy statement, not a conditional statement.

If you want to see a verse that explains HOW to receive eternal life, look no further than John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

The verbs "believes" and "has" are both in the present tense, which means they occur TOGETHER.  So, the very MOMENT one believes, they possess eternal life.

That is HOW one receives eternal life; through believing in the Son.

This is what Paul said:

1 Tim 1:16 - But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

Please don't argue against Scripture.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If you keep my commands you shall abide in my love.   John 15:10

There are believers who don't keep His commands, showing that they don't love Him.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

He that does not keep my commands does not love me.  John 14:24

Ditto.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If any one does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Destined for destruction! (Anathema) Oh Lord Come!  1 Corinthians 16:22

Paul is expressing an opinion, not a doctrine here.  Every believer HAS eternal life (Jn 5:24) and "shall never perish" (John 10:28).

Please don't argue against Scripture.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the ones born of God.
Romans 8:14

There are 2 different aspects of being "sons of God" in Paul's writings.  Positionally, ALL believers are "sons of God" by virtue of faith in Christ (Gal 3:26).  

Yet, experientially, only those believers who walk according to the Spirit (being filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18), who are led by Him, are manifesting their identity as "sons of God".  

The words "as many as..." in the verse differentiates between believers who ARE led by the Spirit vs those believers who aren't led by the Spirit.  Those believers are not obeying the command to be filled with the Spirit, but are rather grieving (Eph 4:30) and/or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

This is not true.  Jesus was very clear about what that crowd was trying to base their entrance into the kingdom on:  their OWN works.  There was NOTHING about what Christ did for them.  They were religious only.  They never believed in Him.  Or Jesus could NOT have said "I NEVER knew you".  Of course He would know every believer.

So those words make very clear that none in that crowd ever believed in Him.

And what Jesus said is affirmed in two other verses:

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

It is only because none of them have ever believed did Jesus tell them to "depart" from Him".  

The red words mean "have NEVER believed".  Proving that the crowd were all unbelievers, trusting in their own works rather than the finished work of Christ.

 

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"Why do you call me Lord Lord and do not the things that I say?"
Luke 6:46-49

That is the parallel passage to Matthew 7:21-28, giving us a clear message:
whoever at all hears His teachings and does not put them into practice...
that house will suffer a great ruin, that is what Christ clearly said.

What you say is correct but only if you understand that "suffer great ruin" refers to God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) toward sinful believers.

I have proven from Scripture that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were NEVER believers in what Christ did on the cross but only trusting in what they did themselves.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

We don't have to make Jesus our Lord?

When any believer sins, at that moment, they are NOT making Jesus their Lord.  Do you believe in sinless perfection, meaning that believers achieve the state of not sinning anymore?  I hope not, because that is not taught in the Bible.  Rather, everyone continues to sin, and Paul admitted that he still did as well.

But, WHEN a believer sins, they are NOT obeying Him which means they are not following Him.  He's NOT their Lord at that moment.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

One can somehow sincerely believe that He died painfully for them, and is their savior, without then understanding Him as Lord of their life?

The biblical point is that every believer SHOULD MAKE Him Lord.  iow, be obedient and faithful to Him.  Of course He is Lord over all.  But 1 Peter 3:15 was a command given to believers.  Do you understand what that means?  It means believers are to OBEY that command.  It is not automatic, as you insinuate.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If your about to fall off a cliff and a random person saves you, would you feel like you owe that person anything?

What you seem to miss is the FACT that believers STILL have their human sinful nature to deal with.

Gal 3:13-15 - For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

Do you see the potential here for sin?  It is quite clear.  Then Paul wrote v.16 - But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

That is the ONLY WAY to avoid "gratifying the desires of the flesh (sin)".  

THEN, Paul wrote v.17 - For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

v.17 proves that believers STILL struggle with sin because we still have the desires of the flesh.  And ONLY v.16 gives us the solution to sin;  be filled with the Spirit.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

A saved person works.

Make that "should work".  There is nothing in the Bible about all believers WILL work.

Eph 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

See?  We "should walk in them (good works)".  Not guaranteed or automatic, as you insinuate.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

For neither circumcision avails anything nor un circumcision, but faith that works by love.  Galatians 5:6

For faith without works is dead, being alone.   James 2:17

And they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.   Galatians 5:24

I want to be able to eat from the tree of life, and enter through the gates into the heavenly city that comes down at the end

All this represents eternal reward for faithful and obedient believers.  Those who haven't been faithful or obedient won't have access to these things.  Because they didn't earn them.

Col 3:23-24 - Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Rewards are earned.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

I believe that everything outside of the city will be on fire.

How can that be?  Read ALL of Rev 21.  The gates of the city is the New Jerusalem, which comes down from heaven.  And rests ON the "new earth".  There will be NO fire on the New Earth.  In fact, the Lake of Fire won't be anywhere near the New Earth.  Some biblical scholars think the LOF will be a distant star.  We'll know in eternity.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Through and because of His indwelling Spirit, giving me self control among other fruits, I purpose to follow the simple teachings of Christ, and wash my mind if and when I find myself thinking in a way He would not like.

The ONLY WAY to accomplish these things is by confessing sins (1 Jn 1:9) when you become aware of them, and then asking for the filling of the Holy Spirit, per Luke 13:11 and 1 John 5:14,15.

Otherwise, all the good works you are doing are coming from your human nature free will.  And ALL of it will stink to God.  Isa 64:6 - All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;  we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

"filthy rags" in the Hebrew is literally "used menstrual rags"!!!!  Really stinky.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Blessed are they that keep the teachings of Jesus, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.  Because outside.... are all those who love and practice a lie.  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things in the Churches.
Revelation 22:14-16

Most believers seem NOT to realize that "outside" or "without" (the gates of the city" is STILL ON the New Earth, and therefore ARE believers.

None of those believers will have access to the eternal reward that faithful believers have earned.

[Charlie1988]

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Paul is speaking about building up people, yes the Church.

Paul is speaking about his own message, and the message that Apollos gave.

"And I, brethren could not speak to you as unto spiritual....
For while one says, I am of Paul, and another I am of Apollos....
I have planted, Apollos watered but God gave the increase."

The seed is the word of God. Luke 8:11

Paul is speaking about the messages he and Apollos gave,
Paul had told the Corinthians about Jesus, Apollos also,
each in their own way.

In full context the chapter can not be seen in any other way,
Paul is speaking about the work of evangelism, not works in general.

And Paul makes clear what gets destroyed,
those people who defile their temple.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts,
murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts,
false witness, blasphemies:
these are the things which defile a man
Matthew 15:19-20

 

 

I find 1 Cor 3:16-17 difficult to deal with.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 

Paul is speaking to born again believers, that they are the temple of God and they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I didn't believe it was possible for a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit to defile himself. 

My take on those 2 verses is that the (defiling) is done to them by someone else, because Paul says God dwells in you. Then in verse 17 he says "if anyone defiles the temple", he doesn't say if we defile our temple, he says if anyone. That's why I lean towards the "anyone" to mean someone else other that the person in question.

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

I'm of the belief that born again believers can never be defiled, that's why I believe that verse 17 is talking about those who try to deceive Gods people with Doctrines of Demons. I believe they will be destroyed and the believer will not be deceived. 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/17/2024 at 8:00 PM, Charlie1988 said:

I didn't believe it was possible for a person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit to defile himself. 

for from the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications,
thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man:
but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.
Matthew 15:19-20

What defiles a person are impure, evil thoughts.
I don't know about you, but I find myself thinking unclean thoughts sometimes
and have to wash my mind. That is what Jesus is hinting at,
washing the mind more so than the outward.

Holding every thought captive to the obedience of Christ
is what Paul said.

Sincere Christians keep washing their thoughts,
getting cleaner as they mature.

In 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Paul is telling us who would get burned,
and it is those who are defiled, never washing their minds.

Everything Paul said, everything, is founded on the things Christ said.
 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/17/2024 at 9:09 AM, FreeGrace said:

Most believers seem NOT to realize that "outside" or "without" (the gates of the city" is STILL ON the New Earth, and therefore ARE believers.

None of those believers will have access to the eternal reward that faithful believers have earned.

None of those people will have access to the tree of life.

I want access to the tree of life, therefore I will obey Jesus.

For outside are, active sinners, your telling me that sinners in a sinful state,
go to heaven, that is blasphemous nonsense.

Paul says, they that belong to Christ have crucified the flesh
with its passions and lusts. Galatians 5:24

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/17/2024 at 9:09 AM, FreeGrace said:

Paul is expressing an opinion, not a doctrine here.  Every believer HAS eternal life (Jn 5:24) and "shall never perish" (John 10:28).

Please don't argue against Scripture.

1 Corinthians 16:22 is not an opinion!
It is Holy Spirit inspired scripture.

Indeed don't argue with scripture, 1 Corinthians 16:22 is scripture,
you have no argument against it.

Let all who do not sincerely love the Lord Jesus Christ be Anathema,
let the kingdom come.

 

He that does not keep my teachings does not love me
John 14:24