Justice at the judgement

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 5/31/2024 at 7:53 AM, FreeGrace said:

And we know from John 5:24 that it is "whoever believes" (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life.

So that means that in John 10:27, "My sheep" refers to believers.  v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving eternal life.  If anyone is a sheep of Jesus, they HAVE eternal life, per Jn 5:24.

Yes, sheep refers to believers, and "My sheep" are clearly defined.

"My sheep, hear my voice, I know them and they follow me"

Therefore if a person does not hear His voice and follow Him,
that person is not one of His sheep.

A sincere believer will therefore hear His voice and follow Him,
if not, their belief is not sincere. 

 

I say unto you that hear, love....
 

 

And we have had this discussion before.
Yes, what He says of His sheep is not a condition,
it is a definition of who His sheep are.

If that definition does not define you,
then you are not one of His sheep.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Desopixi Seilynam

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 5/31/2024 at 8:05 AM, FreeGrace said:

WHY did Paul warn believers about grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.  

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone defiles the temple of God, him will God destroy; for the temple of God
is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17

Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy
who has trodden under foot the Son of God,
and has counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was
sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:29 [ Romans 15:15-16 ]

Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit
he can not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 3:5

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the ones born again, children of God.
Romans 8:14

 

 

And again of John 10:27, it says nothing about "ought to do".
It describes who Jesus's sheep are, who they are,
not what they do or ought to do, but who they are,
their state of being.

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.

Your notions of "ought to do" are not in the text,
the text is clearly describing who His sheep are.

Does John 10:27 describe you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 5/31/2024 at 8:52 AM, FreeGrace said:

Now if we are children, then we are heirs —heirs of God a

if we are children

IF

 

As many are are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the children of God.

Romans 8:14

 

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Yes, sheep refers to believers, and "My sheep" are clearly defined.

"My sheep, hear my voice, I know them and they follow me"

Therefore if a person does not hear His voice and follow Him,
that person is not one of His sheep.

You are making the error of turning v.27 into a condition of being or becoming a sheep, yet there are no words that indicate any kind of condition for being a sheep.  Like "if this, then that".  That's a condition.  Meet the condition and reap the result.

v.27 is merely a statement, like a policy statement, about what His sheep DO or OUGHT TO DO.  Nothing more.

One becomes saved/a sheep from John 3:15,16,18, 3:36, 5:24, 6:49,47, Acts 16:31.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

A sincere believer will therefore hear His voice and follow Him,
if not, their belief is not sincere.

The Bible NEVER even suggests various kinds of belief or faith.  No such thing as an insincere belief.  There are wrong beliefs, for sure.  But there is only one kind of saving belief, which includes Christ as the subject, and salvation as the object of that faith.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

I say unto you that hear, love....

Yes, all believers are commanded to love one another.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And we have had this discussion before.
Yes, what He says of His sheep is not a condition,
it is a definition of who His sheep are.

It's a policy statement about what His sheep DO or OUGHT TO DO.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If that definition does not define you,
then you are not one of His sheep.

Wrong.  Peter got out of line with Jesus and Jesus called him "Satan".  iow, Peter was acting like Satan.  Yet, he remained saved because Jesus guarantees eternal life to all who have believed in Him.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

WHY did Paul warn believers about grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. 

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone defiles the temple of God, him will God destroy; for the temple of God
is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17

How does this passage answer my question to you?  Please answer my question.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy
who has trodden under foot the Son of God,
and has counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was
sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:29 [ Romans 15:15-16 ]

Ditto again.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit
he can not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
John 3:5

I wonder if you know what Jesus was telling ol' Nic.  He was telling Nic that in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven one must be born and born again.

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And again of John 10:27, it says nothing about "ought to do".

Do you understand what a 'policy statement' is?

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

It describes who Jesus's sheep are, who they are, not what they do or ought to do, but who they are, their state of being.

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.

Your notions of "ought to do" are not in the text, the text is clearly describing who His sheep are.

Does John 10:27 describe you?

You are rather naive to think that all believers are always hearing and following Jesus.

I just gave you an example of Peter, who Jesus called "Satan" at one point.  That surely isn't following at all.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

if we are children

IF

As many are are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.

Romans 8:14

So, you think being "led by the Spirit" is a saving message?  I've already given many verses about HOW to become a sheep of Jesus.

We become "children of God" by means of FAITH in Christ.

John 1:12 and 1 Tim 1:16.  Believe and receive

It's that simple.  I have no idea what you believe.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:17 AM, FreeGrace said:

It's a policy statement about what His sheep DO or OUGHT TO DO.

What scripture backs up that notion?

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27

Where do you see "ought to do" or "policy" in that?

 

The immediate context is verse 26:
"But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you"

Therefore clearly verse 27 is in fact a definition of who His sheep are.
It is not a policy statement, the context makes clear that verse 27 is a definition.

Sheep believe.

Sheep hear His voice.

Sheep follow Him.

Sheep receive eternal life.

That is what is being clearly defined in John 10:26-28.

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:23 AM, FreeGrace said:

So, you think being "led by the Spirit" is a saving message?  I've already given many verses about HOW to become a sheep of Jesus.

We become "children of God" by means of FAITH in Christ.

John 1:12 and 1 Tim 1:16.  Believe and receive

Let us read what you quoted in total and simply put the verses together,
because you have to then argue with Paul, not me.

Paul brings in a lot of conditions that go ignored by many for some reason.

And Paul is very long winded, if one is not willing to read his words
as such, you will miss his clear points.

 

 

As many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the children of God.

Romans 8:14

And if we are children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ,
if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Romans 8:17

 

And though I have the gift of prophecy,
and understand all mysteries,
and all knowledge;
and though I have all faith,
so that I could remove mountains,
and have not love, I am nothing. 

And now abides faith, hope and love,
these three, but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:2, 13

Moreover brethren, I declare unto the good news, which I preached to you,
which also you have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also you are saved, IF you hold fast to everything I preached to you,
unless you have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2

(Christ really actually rose from the dead ,and we really will raise from the dead,
just as Christ rose from the dead, that is our motivation)

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord,   [ love ]
for as much as you know that your labor is not in vain
in the Lord (you will be resurrected immortal)

1 Corinthians 15:58

He that does not keep my teachings does not love me.
John 14:24

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ,
let him be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!

1 Corinthians 16:22

 

 

 

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:21 AM, FreeGrace said:

You are rather naive to think that all believers are always hearing and following Jesus.

I just gave you an example of Peter, who Jesus called "Satan" at one point.  That surely isn't following at all.

They may not always be hearing and following.
But they do hear and follow.

We are described as sheep, so we may go astray sometimes,
but we are on a defined path, the straight and narrow way,
deciding to follow that way is part of what makes us sheep.

My sheep hear my voice...
John 10:27

I say unto you that hear, love....
Luke 6:27

Clearly the passages are connected,
we are supposed to hear and obey what Jesus taught.

What Jesus taught is "the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ" that is to be obeyed,
that Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

And the message from Christ are the "words of our Lord Jesus Christ
and the doctrine that is according to godliness"
that Paul speaks about in Timothy 6:3-4.

The love Christ taught is the way His sheep go,
we may stray, but we know His way because of His word,
and have made a decision to follow it.

His words are Spirit and are life. John 6:63
The Lord is the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17

Following the teachings of Jesus is therefore
following the direction of the Holy Spirit.

As many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the Sons of God.
Romans 8:14

[Charlie1988]

On 5/29/2024 at 9:19 PM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

What actually happens at the judgement seat of Christ?

First, let us pretend Hitler said a prayer to Jesus in his bunker, does he get into heaven for saying a prayer sincerely?
"Oh Lord Jesus, I realize I was wrong in all of this, please forgive me... I repent.... ... what else can I do Lord,
please! ...."  Would such a sincere prayer from Hitler have been enough to get him into heaven?

For those who would say yes, then we arrive at the judgement seat of Christ in an interesting way.

What is the justice that would happen?

Hitler would get no crowns, cry during the award ceremony, and sit in the corner somewhere, but yet in heaven, immortal living forever?
He gets in but is turned into a literal pillar of the temple in heaven, conscious, but just a nice piece of stone?
Or Matthew 22:11-13 would apply in such a situation?

 

 

 

For we must all stand before the judgement seat of Christ,
that everyone may receive the things done in their body, according to what they have done,
whether they receive good or bad
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men
2 Corinthians 5:10-11

It is not an award ceremony. It is the terror of the Lord.

Because Christ died for all, that they which live should henceforth
not live unto themselves but unto Him that died for them and rose again.
2 Corinthians 5:15

 

 

Anyone who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ is saved, regardless of what sins they have committed. The one and only sin which i not pardonable is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, all other sins are forgiven when one repents. 

Everyone will be rewarded according to their works, at the judgement seat of Christ. 

Everyone will be ranked according to how much they did to bring honor and glory to God. Obviously those who did much will be greatly rewarded, and those minimalists who did the bare minimum will receive the bare minimum in heaven. 

We may think it's unfair that Hitler should get into heaven at all, but we shouldn't judge him if his repentance was genuine. Only Jesus knows if it was genuine. 

Matt 20:12-15 shows that Jesus can also give the same reward to those who repent at the end of their lives. 

Matt 20:12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’