Justice at the judgement

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

What scripture backs up that notion?

It doesn't take another Scripture to "back up" a policy statement.

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27

Where do you see "ought to do" or "policy" in that?

Where do you see any condition for receiving eternal life?  There isn't one.  The condition for receiving eternal life is found clearly in John 3:15,16,18,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, Acts 16:31.

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The immediate context is verse 26:
"But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you"

And where do you see any condition here?  There isn't one.

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Therefore clearly verse 27 is in fact a definition of who His sheep are.

The words "My sheep" clearly indicates that He is referring to those who have believed.  They are the ones He gives eternal life.  Jn 5:24 says so also.

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

It is not a policy statement, the context makes clear that verse 27 is a definition.

As I said, it is a policy statement of what believers DO or ought to do.  You can believe whatever you want.

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Sheep believe.

Sheep hear His voice.

Sheep follow Him.

Sheep receive eternal life.

This suggests people get from hearing and following.  That is wrong.  People receive eternal life on the sole basis of believing in the finished work of Christ.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human descent

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

You see, I provide verses that say what I say.  Or, I say what the Bible says.  Just like the Bereans.

12 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

That is what is being clearly defined in John 10:26-28.

If true, then the Bible is contradicted, by the verses I just shared.  

However, the Bible is NOT contradicted, so you are reading John 10:26-28 incorrectly.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

So, you think being "led by the Spirit" is a saving message?  I've already given many verses about HOW to become a sheep of Jesus.

Let us read what you quoted in total and simply put the verses together,
because you have to then argue with Paul, not me.

I have no argument with Paul, for I say what he says.  But why do you ignore the very clear verses that I have shared with you about HOW to become a sheep of Jesus?

Paul certainly would NOT agree with your views of works salvation.  He would condemn that idea (and did!) as much as Jesus did to the Pharisees.

Read Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Paul brings in a lot of conditions that go ignored by many for some reason.

All of which you don't understand.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And Paul is very long winded, if one is not willing to read his words
as such, you will miss his clear points.

I read all of his epistles months, for over 2 decades.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Romans 8:17

You quoted a lot of verses, and NONE of them say anything about how to become a sheep of Jesus.  I don't know why you quoted them.  They do not support your views.  They are not about how to become a sheep of Jesus.

[FreeGrace]

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

  FreeGrace said:

You are rather naive to think that all believers are always hearing and following Jesus.

I just gave you an example of Peter, who Jesus called "Satan" at one point.  That surely isn't following at all.

They may not always be hearing and following.
But they do hear and follow.

And that is called a "policy statement", what Jesus' sheep OUGHT to do.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

My sheep hear my voice...
John 10:27

I say unto you that hear, love....
Luke 6:27

Clearly the passages are connected, we are supposed to hear and obey what Jesus taught.

In that both mention hearing.  Your point?

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

What Jesus taught is "the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ" that is to be obeyed, that Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Yes, believers are to obey the Lord.  Of course.  But not to become sheep.

11 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And the message from Christ are the "words of our Lord Jesus Christ
and the doctrine that is according to godliness"
that Paul speaks about in Timothy 6:3-4.
The love Christ taught is the way His sheep go,
we may stray, but we know His way because of His word,
and have made a decision to follow it.

His words are Spirit and are life. John 6:63
The Lord is the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:17

Following the teachings of Jesus is therefore
following the direction of the Holy Spirit.

As many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the Sons of God.
Romans 8:14

And none of these verses support your view either.  Not sure why you quoted them.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

7 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

Everyone will be ranked according to how much they did to bring honor and glory to God. Obviously those who did much will be greatly rewarded, and those minimalists who did the bare minimum will receive the bare minimum in heaven. 

What is the bare minimum in heaven, and which scripture gives you any such idea?

2 Corinthians 5:10 is about the terror of the Lord as Paul clearly says in verse 11,
it is not about an award ceremony as certain men preach.

 

7 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

Matt 20:12-15 shows that Jesus can also give the same reward to those who repent at the end of their lives. 

Matt 20:12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour

"These last men have WORKED only one hour."

Nevertheless they worked, their belief led them to action,
that is the mark of sincere belief.

 

Neither circumcision nor un- circumcision availas anything,
but faith that works by love.

For faith without works is dead, being alone.

Hitler's repentance would only be genuine if had also turned himself in to face due justice, certainly if he had said a sincere prayer the Spirit would have led him to do so.

He that despised Moses' law died at the hands of two or three witnesses,
of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy
who has trampled under foot the Son of God,and has counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing,
and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:28-29

He who does not provide for his own, especially they of his own household
has denied the faith and is worse than a non believer.
1 Timothy 5:8

Someone still entering heaven is not receiving worse punishment
than a non believer, therefore the idea of an award ceremony
does not line up with all scripture we have on the matter.

 

 

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

9 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And none of these verses support your view either.  Not sure why you quoted them.

You are saying that being born again, becoming a child of God, happens at the moment of belief.

Paul said:

As many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the children of God.
Romans 8:14

The Galatians thought that their one time act of circumcision was like a ticket into heaven. Paul told them firstly that they would have to follow the whole law, not just get circumcised, and then he explained that salvation is about a life lived, not a one time event.

For what avails anything is faith that demonstrates itself by love.
That is what Paul said, not faith alone, faith, that works by love.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Yes, believers are to obey the Lord.  Of course.  But not to become sheep.

Sheep believe.

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
John 10:26

Not believers become sheep, but sheep believe.

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27

Sheep hear His voice, and sheep follow Him.

Because they believe Him.

It does not matter how one becomes a sheep,
what is clearly defined is who the sheep are, their, general,
state of being, is one of hearing the words of the Lord,
and following them.

We all as sheep have clear record of the Lords words,
I am talking about the clear teachings of Jesus that we have,
every sincere Christian hears and follows Jesus,
otherwise they are not sincere.
They may falter in their journey,
but the journey their on is one of actually following Christ.

 

 

 

-------

 

If anyone preaches otherwise, and agrees not to wholesome words,
even to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and to the doctrine that is according to godliness
he is proud knowing nothing.

Whoever disobeys the Torah,
and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, does not have God.
Whoever abides in the doctrine of Christ,
has both the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you preaching,
and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into your house
neither give him a greeting,
lest you be partaker of his evil deeds.
 

And they were astonished at His doctrine
for He taught as one with authority.
Matthew 7:28

 

The teachings of Jesus are the corner stone of the apostles
message. Anyone who does not agree to the teachings of Jesus
is proud knowing nothing. Anyone who does not abide
in the teachings of Jesus does not have God.
So said the apostles specifically.

 

 

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

44 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

You see, I provide verses that say what I say.  Or, I say what the Bible says.  Just like the Bereans.

What does believe in Him mean? 

Just believe that He died and rose from the dead?
Which you would glean from Romans 10,
but in Romans 10 Paul makes clear:

 "with the heart man believes unto righteousness"
Romans 10:10

Therefore Paul defined what kind of belief he is talking
about, a belief that changes a person, a belief leading to a lifestyle.
The very lifestyle he goes on to preach in chapters 12-14.
 

So "believe in Him" does not mean
just believe that He died and rose from the dead,
and go back to being however you were.

If we believe that He died and rose from the dead, and that He is the Messiah,
we should therefore believe the words He spoke.
And if we believe the words He spoke, actions follow.
Simply because He said things like; give and it will be given to you....

 

 

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

And none of these verses support your view either.  Not sure why you quoted them.

You are saying that being born again, becoming a child of God, happens at the moment of belief.

Let me be very clear.   I say what the Bible says.  And I've proven it with verses.

Why all the pushback on the verses that I have shared?

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Paul said:

As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.
Romans 8:14

This is not about HOW to be saved, but rather, only those who are led by the Spirit of God are God's children (saved).  

iow, unbelievers are not ever "led by the Spirit".  That is the point of the verse.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The Galatians thought that their one time act of circumcision was like a ticket into heaven. Paul told them firstly that they would have to follow the whole law, not just get circumcised, and then he explained that salvation is about a life lived, not a one time event.

No, Paul NEVER said that.  Not even close to that.  In FACT, salvation IS IS IS a "one time event.  At the MOMENT of faith in Christ, the believer possesses eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The verbs "believes" and "has" are both present tense verbs.  That means they occur ata the SAME TIME.  So, when a person believes, at that moment, they possess eternal life.

Any other view is contrary to the Bible.

1 hour ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

For what avails anything is faith that demonstrates itself by love.
That is what Paul said, not faith alone, faith, that works by love.

Paul NEVER included demonstration of love as a criteria for salvation.  You are simply misreading the Bible.  Very dangerous.  That's where FALSE doctrines arise.

[FreeGrace]

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Sheep believe.

But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
John 10:26

Of course.  That's HOW they became sheep in the first place.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Not believers become sheep, but sheep believe.

I think you are just confused.  Jesus used the words "My sheep" to indicate people who have believed in Him for salvation.  Again, read and believe what John 5:24 says.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

My sheep hear my voice, I know them, and they follow me.
John 10:27

Sheep hear His voice, and sheep follow Him.

Because they believe Him.

And none of this is HOW to become a sheep.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

It does not matter how one becomes a sheep,

Sure it does.  The ONLY WAY is what the Bible SAYS.  You don't get to define or describe how to become a sheep any more than I do.  Only what the Bible SAYS.

John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

In the first part of ch 10 Jesus uses the metaphor of "sheep" for people.  And "the gate" as Himself as Savior.  He said "those who ENTER through ME will be saved".  He wasn't talking about lifestyle or works, but rather, faith in Him.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

what is clearly defined is who the sheep are, their, general, state of being, is one of hearing the words of the Lord, and following them.

Yes, exactly what I said about 10:27.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

We all as sheep have clear record of the Lords words, I am talking about the clear teachings of Jesus that we have, every sincere Christian hears and follows Jesus,
otherwise they are not sincere.  They may falter in their journey, but the journey their on is one of actually following Christ.

Salvation is NOT a "journey".  Spiritual growth is the journey.  Some believers grow up in their faith and some do not.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If anyone preaches otherwise, and agrees not to wholesome words, even to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine that is according to godliness he is proud knowing nothing.

Please include your point if you have one when you quote verses.  Thanks.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Whoever disobeys the Torah, and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, does not have God.  Whoever abides in the doctrine of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.  If anyone comes to you preaching, and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into your house neither give him a greeting, lest you be partaker of his evil deeds.

Ditto here.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And they were astonished at His doctrine for He taught as one with authority.
Matthew 7:28

Ditto here.

57 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The teachings of Jesus are the corner stone of the apostles message. Anyone who does not agree to the teachings of Jesus is proud knowing nothing. Anyone who does not abide in the teachings of Jesus does not have God.  So said the apostles specifically.

Do you know what "abide" means as Jesus taught the disciples and John wrote about in John 15?  Please share.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

53 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

HOW to become a sheep of Jesus?

Verily verily I say unto you, He that hears my word,
and believes on Him that sent me, has everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.

 

'Verily verily I say unto you'   Who is Jesus talking to?

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him,
because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father,
making Him equal with God.
Then answered Jesus and said unto them.....
John 5:18-19

The Jews.

'He that hears my word' What is His word?

For had ye believed Moses, you would have believed me:
for he wrote of me.
But if you believe not his writings,
how shall you believe my words?
John 5:46-47

Matthew 5 through 7 is a detailed account of His words.
His words that all must obey as written by Moses: Deuteronomy 18:18-19
and stated by Peter Acts 3:22-23.

'and believes on Him that sent me'  Who is Him that sent me?

That all men should honor the Son,
even as they honor the Father.
He that honors not the Son, honors not the Father which has sent Him.
John 5:23

The Father.

 

What does it mean to honor the Son, honor the Father?

For Moses said honor your father and your mother
But you say, if a man shall say to his father or mother,
it is Corban, that is to say a gift,
by whatsoever you might be profited by me, he shall be free. 
And you allow him no more to do anything for his parents,
making the word of God of no effect through your tradition
Mark 7:10-13

 

It means to DO for Him.

To work for Him.

To live for Him.

To be there for Him.

It is not just lip service or the giving of money, it's a lifestyle.

 

 

 

John 5:24 says one has to hear Jesus' word and believe on the Father.

"He that hears my word, and believes on Him that sent me"

The context of the verse (stated out specifically above)
makes clear how it is meant,
I do not think we can take that specific verse for the Gentiles very
strongly, it only makes sense in context.

Otherwise you are trying to take a verse that is about belief in the Father,
and make it into one about belief in general.

 

And in John 5:24 it is clear that hearing Jesus' words is requirement.