Justice at the judgement

[FreeGrace]

46 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receiveeternal life.

You see, I provide verses that say what I say.  Or, I say what the Bible says.  Just like the Bereans.

What does believe in Him mean? 

Just believe that He died and rose from the dead?  Which you would glean from Romans 10, but in Romans 10 Paul makes clear:"with the heart man believes unto righteousness" Romans 10:10

No, to your second question.  To "believe in Him" means to fully trust in His finished work on the cross on YOUR behalf and He will give you eternal life.  

However, this trust includes believing that Jesus IS the God of God (Deity), and salvation is found ONLY IN HIM, no one else, or nothing else.   Acts 4:12

46 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Therefore Paul defined what kind of belief he is talking about, a belief that changes a person, a belief leading to a lifestyle.  The very lifestyle he goes on to preach in chapters 12-14.

You are still misreading Scripture.  There is no such thing as a belief that changes a person's lifestyle.  The change that occurs WHEN a person believes in Christ is internal.  The believer becomes a "new creature" (2 Cor 5:17) due to being born again and the Holy Spirit taking up residence in them.

Throughout the NT believers are encouraged and exhorted to be "holy and blameless".  That doesn't occur by believing in Him.  It should follow believing in Him.

46 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

So "believe in Him" does not mean just believe that He died and rose from the dead, and go back to being however you were.

Answered above.

46 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If we believe that He died and rose from the dead, and that He is the Messiah,
we should therefore believe the words He spoke.  And if we believe the words He spoke, actions follow. Simply because He said things like; give and it will be given to you....

Yes, we SHOULD!  That has been my point.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Do you know what "abide" means as Jesus taught the disciples and John wrote about in John 15?  Please share.

If you keep my teachings, you shall abide in my love,
even as I have kept my Father's commands and abide in His love.
John 15:10

This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:12

 

And they were astonished at His doctrine,
for He taught as one with authority.
Matthew 7:28

 

Whoever disobeys the Torah, and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ,
does not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father
and the Son. If anyone comes to you preaching, and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into you house, neither give him a greeting, lest you be partaker
of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11

If anyone preaches otherwise, and agrees not to wholesome words,
even to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine
that is according to godliness, he is proud knowing nothing
1 Timothy 6:3-4

 

Anyone who does not abide in the teachings of Jesus
does not have God.
Anyone who does not agree to the teachings of Jesus
is proud knowing nothing.
So say the apostles specifically.
They warned us of messages that neglect the simple teachings of the Lord.

Jesus' teachings are the foundational message of the good news.

 

 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

HOW to become a sheep of Jesus?

Verily verily I say unto you, He that hears my word,
and believes on Him that sent me, has everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.

Well, I've explained HOW to become a sheep of Jesus enough that your continued error of using John 10:27 is unexcusable.

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

'Verily verily I say unto you'   Who is Jesus talking to?

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him,
because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father,
making Him equal with God.
Then answered Jesus and said unto them.....
John 5:18-19

Clearly unbelievers.

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The Jews.

'He that hears my word' What is His word?

For had ye believed Moses, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?
John 5:46-47

Why don't you BELIEVE what Jesus SAID here?  He told the Jews directly that if they had believed Moses, they WOULD HAVE believed Him. 

Belief is the key to salvation, not behavior or lifestyle.

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Matthew 5 through 7 is a detailed account of His words.
His words that all must obey as written by Moses: Deuteronomy 18:18-19
and stated by Peter Acts 3:22-23.

'and believes on Him that sent me'  Who is Him that sent me?

That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.  He that honors not the Son, honors not the Father which has sent Him.
John 5:23

The Father.

What does it mean to honor the Son, honor the Father?

For Moses said honor your father and your mother But you say, if a man shall say to his father or mother, it is Corban, that is to say a gift, by whatsoever you might be profited by me, he shall be free.  And you allow him no more to do anything for his parents, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition  Mark 7:10-13

What is your point here?

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

It means to DO for Him.

To work for Him.

To live for Him.

To be there for Him.

It is not just lip service or the giving of money, it's a lifestyle.

Service is a lifestyle.  Salvation is through faith.  Eph 2:8.  Do you believe Eph 2:8?

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

John 5:24 says one has to hear Jesus' word and believe on the Father.

"He that hears my word, and believes on Him that sent me"

The context of the verse (stated out specifically above) makes clear how it is meant, I do not think we can take that specific verse for the Gentiles very
strongly, it only makes sense in context.

Otherwise you are trying to take a verse that is about belief in the Father,
and make it into one about belief in general.

What you seem to miss is the point Jesus was making about what His Father said about Him.  He made that clear in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

How could anyone misunderstand what Jesus said here?

7 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And in John 5:24 it is clear that hearing Jesus' words is requirement.

Of course a person must be able to hear the gospel promise in order to believe it.

That isn't in dispute.  The problem is your view that works are included in the requirements for being saved.  And you haven't proven that from any verse.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

To "believe in Him" means to fully trust in His finished work on the cross on YOUR behalf and He will give you eternal life.

Where does the Bible say anything like that?

I believe in the person Jesus, He is alive, He is watching over my very thoughts,
because He is God.

We are to believe in Jesus Himself, not a finished work, a person.

 

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the children of God.
Romans 8:14

Holding every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
2 Corinthians 10:5

And that He died for all, that they which live
should henceforth not live unto themselves,
but unto Him that died for them and rose again.
2 Corinthians 5:15

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ,
let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

He that does not keep my teachings, does not love me.
John 14:24

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course a person must be able to hear the gospel promise in order to believe it.

That isn't in dispute.  The problem is your view that works are included in the requirements for being saved.  And you haven't proven that from any verse.

The problem is that you see "hears my word" in John 5:24 as referring to something other than Matthew 5 through 7 and Luke chapter 6.
"hears my word" in John 5:24 is referring to the words Jesus spoke, not to any words of Paul, or to a "gospel promise"
Jesus is speaking about the good news that He preached.

Edited June 10, 2024 by Desopixi Seilynam

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

Do you know what "abide" means as Jesus taught the disciples and John wrote about in John 15?  Please share.

If you keep my teachings, you shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commands and abide in His love.  John 15:10

This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:12

OK, I see that you don't understand what "abide" means.  Quoting a few verses that include the word isn't an explanation of what it means.

Jesus used the word in John 15 for FELLOWSHIP.  iow, in order to produce fruit for Jesus, one must be in FELLOWSHIP with Him.  John expanded on FELLOWSHIP in 1 John 1.  

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Whoever disobeys the Torah, and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ,
does not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father
and the Son. If anyone comes to you preaching, and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into you house, neither give him a greeting, lest you be partaker
of his evil deeds. 2 John 1:9-11

Again, "abiding" is about FELLOWSHIP.  So, of course, believers who are out of fellowship "do not have God" in the sense of having fellowship with God.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If anyone preaches otherwise, and agrees not to wholesome words, even to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine that is according to godliness, he is proud knowing nothing  1 Timothy 6:3-4

Yes, lots of ignorant believers out there.  

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Anyone who does not abide in the teachings of Jesus does not have God.  Anyone who does not agree to the teachings of Jesus is proud knowing nothing.  So say the apostles specifically.  They warned us of messages that neglect the simple teachings of the Lord.

Jesus' teachings are the foundational message of the good news.

OK.  This quote is STILL about FELLOWSHIP.  Not salvation.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

3 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, I see that you don't understand what "abide" means.  Quoting a few verses that include the word isn't an explanation of what it means.

Jesus used the word in John 15 for FELLOWSHIP.  iow, in order to produce fruit for Jesus, one must be in FELLOWSHIP with Him.  John expanded on FELLOWSHIP in 1 John 1.  

 What does it mean to abide ?

If you keep my commands you shall abide
 

 

Paul has something to say on the matter as well:

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ,
let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

He that does not love me, does not keep my commands.
John 14:24

 

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch,
and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

 

 

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

FreeGrace said:

To "believe in Him" means to fully trust in His finished work on the cross on YOUR behalf and He will give you eternal life.

Where does the Bible say anything like that?

If what I wrote above is THAT unfamiliar to you, how sad, coming from a professing Christian.  How can you NOT know that?

It is obvious that you do not understand faith or grace either.  We can't earn salvation and we don't deserve salvation.  That is why salvation is by grace through faith.

Eph 2:8

Paul's answer to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved was to believe in the Lord (Deity) Jesus (humanity) Christ (Messiah-Savior).

Paul NEVER included works in how to be saved.  

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

I believe in the person Jesus, He is alive, He is watching over my very thoughts,
because He is God.

Do you believe He is the Son of God?  Do you believe that He paid YOUR sin debt completely and offers the free gift of eternal life for trusting in what He did for YOU on the cross?  If so, you are saved.  If not, you are still lost in your sins.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

We are to believe in Jesus Himself, not a finished work, a person.

OK, so you ignore what He did for YOU on the cross then.  Wow.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God.
Romans 8:14

This isn't about salvation.  A simple statement that only God's children (saved people) are led by the Spirit.  No unbelievers.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Holding every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.
2 Corinthians 10:5

Not about salvation.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

And that He died for all, that they which live should henceforth not live unto themselves, but unto Him that died for them and rose again.
2 Corinthians 5:15

Do you believe He paid YOUR sin debt on the cross?  This verse says so.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

Not about salvation.

8 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

He that does not keep my teachings, does not love me.
John 14:24

Still not about salvation.

You are solely focused on works, or effort.  If so, then you will never be saved.

Read Matt 7:21-23.  These people thought their works would get them Into the kingdom.  They were sadly mistaken.  

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

The problem is that you see "hears my word" in John 5:24 as referring to something other than Matthew 5 through 7 and Luke chapter 6.
"hears my word" in John 5:24 is referring to the words Jesus spoke, not to any words of Paul, or to a "gospel promise"
Jesus is speaking about the good news that He preached.

The real problem is your misunderstanding.  One must hear the gospel before they can believe it.

You keep inserting personal effort or works or deeds into HOW to be saved, and the Bible CONDEMNS such an idea.

[FreeGrace]

3 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

 What does it mean to abide ?

If you keep my commands you shall abide

As I already said, it is about FELLOWSHIP.  Think about a marriage.  1 spouse offends the other.  Is there "fellowship" between them at that point?  No.  They are still married, but NO fellowship, no intimacy.  John wrote about how to restore fellowship with the Lord in 1 John 1:9 through confession of sin.  The result is forgiveness and cleansing.  

3 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Paul has something to say on the matter as well:

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

Paul is expressing his own feelings here.  This is NOT about loss of salvation.

3 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

He that does not love me, does not keep my commands.
John 14:24

True statement.  And not about salvation, or loss thereof.

3 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch,
and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6

The Bible uses "fire" as a judgment or evaluation, such as 1 Cor 3:12-15.  This is not about hell.