Justice at the judgement

[Mr. M]

17 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

It is what one believes, or trusts in that is the biblical issue.

Or, do you have verses that say otherwise?

 

48 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

James 4:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good

and does not do it, to him it is sin.

17 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

I wonder what you think this verse means.  It is clear to me that regenerated believers are God's workmanship, for good works.  And note: that we SHOULD walk in them.

iow, Because we are God's workmanship, we SHOULD walk in the good works that God has prepared for us.

We SHOULD walk in them. James says that if you know

and do not, it is sin. How is that a sin of the flesh?

20 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Could you provide the verse that you are quoting from?  Thanks.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

52 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Psalm 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; 

yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

He has given us understanding, thus they are without excuse

if they know the good they are to do (they have received the grace of God)

and they do not, Is that a sin of the flesh, or a rebellious spirit?

1 John 5:

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

There is therefore sin that must be cleansed from the flesh

AND the spirit.

1 John 1:

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The truth is Spirit...

John 16:

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin,

and of righteousness, and of judgment: 

9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 

10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 

11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

We SHOULD walk in them. James says that if you know

and do not, it is sin. How is that a sin of the flesh?

I explained that.  Our human spirit is where the Holy Spirit dwells.  Believers cannot sin from their spirit.  It is the human spirit that DIED "on the day" that Adam and the woman ate the forbidden fruit.  He sure didn't fall over dead.  But the warning was that he would DIE "on the day" he ate it.  And his human spirit did die.

That is why everyone needs to be born again, so their dead human spirit is "made alive" again, per Eph 2:5.  

Jesus told the woman at the well that in order to worship God, one must do so "in spirit and in truth".  He was telling her she needed a live spirit with which to worship God.  

Back to the garden:  when A&E ate the fruit, they became disconnected from God.  So when the Lord came calling in the cool of the evening, they hid from Him.  They had no ability to relate to Him.  Their spirit was DEAD.

What does James 1:13-15 mean?

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

And what does Gal 5:17 mean? "For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want."

 

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

While there are verses that clearly differentiate between soul and spirit, some verses use them interchangeably.  This is one of them.

If Adam's human spirit didn't DIE "on the day" he ate, just what did die then?

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

He has given us understanding, thus they are without excuse

if they know the good they are to do (they have received the grace of God)

and they do not, Is that a sin of the flesh, or a rebellious spirit?

In this verse, your question obviously refers to the soul's attitude.  

If you don't believe the human spirit DIED "on the day" Adam ate, and it isn't the human spirit that is "made alive" per Eph 2:5, please explain to me WHAT actually DIED "on the day" Adam ate and WHAT actually is "made alive".

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

1 John 5:

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

There is therefore sin that must be cleansed from the flesh

AND the spirit.

Another verse where "spirit" is the "soul".  I hope you answer my questions above.

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

1 John 1:

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The truth is Spirit...

No, you have it backwards.  The Spirit is truth.

Have you read 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

I referenced this verse in a previous post.  

1 hour ago, Mr. M said:

John 16:

8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin,

and of righteousness, and of judgment: 

9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 

10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 

11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

None of these verses support your claim.

Why would Heb 4:12 clearly differentiate between soul and spirit if there is no real difference?

[Mr. M]

13 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Why would Heb 4:12 clearly differentiate between soul and spirit if there is no real difference?

You are the one saying they are interchangeable!

14 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Another verse where "spirit" is the "soul".

The heart is spirit, not soul, or flesh.

"Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength."

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

No, you have it backwards.  The Spirit is truth.

The Truth is in Christ, the flesh profits nothing.

I know quite well Jesus referred to the Holy 

Spirit as the Spirit of Truth. That does not make

the statement "truth is Spirit" backwards, since

there is no other truth. You can use the mind of

Christ to be logical.

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, 

but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

David said "thy law is truth" (Ps 119), yet it could not

be comprehended as such without a regenerate

mind of Christ.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

[FreeGrace]

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

FreeGrace said:

Why would Heb 4:12 clearly differentiate between soul and spirit if there is no real difference?

You are the one saying they are interchangeable!

You misunderstood again!  I said Scripture sometimes equates the two, but Heb 4:12 is very clear about differentiating them.

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

The heart is spirit, not soul, or flesh.

Then please answer as to WHAT specifically DIED "on the day" Adam ate the fruit.  I've already asked you this, so please answer.  Something DID die.

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

"Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and strength."

In this verse, the "heart" would be the spirit, since unbelievers have dead human spirits (spiritually dead).  Thanks for proving my point.

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.

Again, thanks.  Only believers have "hearts".  Unbelievers are spiritually dead.

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, 

but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

David said "thy law is truth" (Ps 119), yet it could not

be comprehended as such without a regenerate mind of Christ.

Exactly!

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Read all of Romans 7.  Paul explains the difference very well.

58 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

Like I said, unbelievers don't have a living human spirit.  They have a dead one which is why they need to be born AGAIN.

Once again, can you tell me what DIED "on the day" that Adam ate the fruit?

Something did, literally.  What was it?

[Mr. M]

12 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Something did, literally.  What was it?

Man lost his connection to God, rendering him incapable

of reflecting the image of Whom he was made, hence,

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

P. S. I love the way you condescendingly quiz people as if you are the only one who has read the Bible. We will remain in disagreement on many points, especially the notion that when 2 Co 7:1 says spirit, it means soul. That is absurd.

David prayed, "create in me a clean heart", the Holy Spirit does that work in those who obey Him, spirit (heart), soul and flesh.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

You can academically try to separate man into compartments, but I do not find the Holy Spirit sees us in this manner. We are to "bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ". 

Here is your quiz question: what does it mean to be "made whole"?

hint:1 Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

[Charlie1988]

13 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

What is the bare minimum in heaven, and which scripture gives you any such idea?

2 Corinthians 5:10 is about the terror of the Lord as Paul clearly says in verse 11,
it is not about an award ceremony as certain men preach.

 

"These last men have WORKED only one hour."

Nevertheless they worked, their belief led them to action,
that is the mark of sincere belief.

 

Neither circumcision nor un- circumcision availas anything,
but faith that works by love.

For faith without works is dead, being alone.

Hitler's repentance would only be genuine if had also turned himself in to face due justice, certainly if he had said a sincere prayer the Spirit would have led him to do so.

He that despised Moses' law died at the hands of two or three witnesses,
of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy
who has trampled under foot the Son of God,and has counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing,
and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:28-29

He who does not provide for his own, especially they of his own household
has denied the faith and is worse than a non believer.
1 Timothy 5:8

Someone still entering heaven is not receiving worse punishment
than a non believer, therefore the idea of an award ceremony
does not line up with all scripture we have on the matter.

 

 

 

 

In Matthew 25:20-26, Jesus confirms that He will reward each individual according to his works, so it will be an awards cerimony after all.

We see the parable of the talents in Matt 25:20-26 is clearly describing the awards ceremony. Those who didn't bare any fruit will have their talent taken from them and given to the one who achieved the most. 

The Bible is full of examples, of different rewards being given to everyone according to their works. For example, the minimalist Christian who didn't give his tithes and offerings generously will not be rewarded the same as those who gave generously. 

We have examples like the widow who gave all she had, while others gave more out of their abundance and they didn't receive the same reward. There is overwhelming evidence that we will all be rewarded according to our works. 

The terror of the Lord, is the fear of the Lord. Every true believer lives in fear of the Lord. 

God never placed a time limit on our repentance, many repent on their death bed and God is faithful to save them regardless. We have the example of the thief on the cross, who repented at the last moment. He was saved, even though he never got the chance to make amends to those he offended. 

Every saved person is saved by the blood of Christ, those under the old covenant looked forward to Christs atonement for their salvation and we look back under the new covenant but everyone is saved by the same means. 

Heaven has many different ranks and levels, so does hell. Everyone will receive a tailor made reward or punishment according to their works. 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Charlie1988

[Desopixi Seilynam]

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

That is not true!!  He condemned them for the ABSENCE of faith in him.

Where you see that in Matthew 7:21-28 ?

"Not every one that says to me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven, but he that DOES the will of my Father"

Jesus is speaking about DOING the will of the Father.

The will of the Father is that we obey the Son.
Deuteronomy 18:18-19 Acts 3:22-23

He that does not love me, does not keep my teachings.
John 14:24

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ,
let that person be Anathema! (destined for destruction)
Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22

 

12 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Not at all.  Jesus was telling the people about the crowd who will be kneeling at the Great White Judgment of Rev 20.  "in that day" in v.21 is a reference to Judgment Day for the unsaved.

Just consider what that crowd was basing their entrance into the kingdom on:  their own works, deeds.  There is NO mention of faith Jesus Christ.  They were trusting in their own efforts.

 

"Many will SAY TO ME in that day ....

THEREFORE WHOSOEVER hears these sayings.... "
Matthew 7:22, 24

Jesus is talking about WHOSOEVER.

Anybody and everybody who hears the sayings of Christ
and does not put them into practice is like a fool
that built his house upon the sand,
when the time comes, in that day, great will be the fall of that house.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

3 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

In Matthew 25:20-26, Jesus confirms that He will reward each individual according to his works, so it will be an awards cerimony after all.

His Lord answered and said, thou wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed... take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which has the ten talents. ...

AND CAST YE THE UNPROFITABLE SERVANT INTO OUTER DARKNESS:
THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

Matthew 25:26 - 30

Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord we persuade men....
2 Corinthians 5:11

[Desopixi Seilynam]

11 hours ago, NConly said:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Amen.

Abraham had full faith in God, and therefore was willing to actually sacrifice Isaac,
believing that what was going to happen was that God was going to resurrect Isaac.
[ Hebrews 11:19 ]

We see then that his faith was demonstrated by the actions he took.

And we see that we share in the faith of Abraham,
a belief in resurrection.
 

If our faith is in a finished work, then no actions are required.

If our faith is in the person Christ, then we are to heed His voice,
because He is alive and speaks to us now through His Spirit,
and we have good record of His teachings.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Man lost his connection to God, rendering him incapable

of reflecting the image of Whom he was made

This is called spiritual death, which is what was warned about when they ate the forbidden fruit.  "in the day" that you eat of it, you shall surely die.  They both did die that day, but not physically.  They died spiritually, or their human spirit died.

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

hence,

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

P. S. I love the way you condescendingly quiz people as if you are the only one who has read the Bible.

Please stop being so condesending.  I ask questions in order to understand from where they are coming from.  There's no other way.  "as if..".  Good grief.

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

We will remain in disagreement on many points, especially the notion that when 2 Co 7:1 says spirit, it means soul. That is absurd.

Well, you provided some verses that illustrate that.  And Heb 4:12 MAKES THE DISTINCTION between the two.

And so did Paul, in 1 Cor 14:15 - What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here, the "mind" is the consciousness of the person.  Also called the soul.

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

David prayed, "create in me a clean heart", the Holy Spirit does that work in those who obey Him, spirit (heart), soul and flesh.

As I've already explained, the human spirit is necessary for worship of God, per Jesus in John 4:24, and it what is "made alive" or "regenerated" or "born AGAIN" at the moment of faith in Christ.

So David was speaking of his mind, his soul, where in begins, according to James 1.

And you still haven't answered the question of what actually DIED when Adam ate the fruit.

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

There it is in black and white.  Souls and hearts being equated.  

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

You can academically try to separate man into compartments, but I do not find the Holy Spirit sees us in this manner.

Well, it was the Holy Spirit who inspired the author of Hebrews to write 4:12, so you'd better face facts.  It is biblical.

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

We are to "bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ".

Which is from our minds/hearts/souls.

12 hours ago, Mr. M said:

 Here is your quiz question: what does it mean to be "made whole"?

hint:1 Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

How about this?  I asked what actually DIED when Adam ate the fruit and you keep ignoring the question.  Please ANSWER the question and I will keep answering your questions.

Fair is fair.  I would love to answer your question (quiz) here, but you need to figure out what actually died when Adam ate the fruit.