Baptism but not all the way...

[Gracejj]

2 hours ago, TheBlade said:

:) yes.. but if one keeps searching oh I am sure you will hear all kind of answers. Its do we know Yeshua/Jesus Christ as lord.

 

5 minutes ago, Grace j said:

Well said. Yes he actually accepted Jesus as his savior when he was around 6 yrs old, so yes he surely professed faith in Him i can say that.

Thank you

 

 

45 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The word Baptism is an Anglicization of the Greek "Baptizo". The Greek word means "to submerge as you would when dyeing a robe". Every effort should be made to submerge the believer. But, as one above has said, should we forgo Baptism because things are not perfect? No! I have baptized many a big man in a standard bathtub. At the time of "dunking" his knees would protrude from the water. Does God disregard this act of obedience because of circumstance where 5% of the body is not simultaneously dunked?  I think not. His intention and actions proved his obedience. In Colossians 2 we read; 

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

There are about six things involved in Baptism. Here in Colossians 2 we see that Baptism is the replacement for circumcision. But Romans 4:11 tells us that circumcision is a "sign". The reality is Christ's work - according to verse 10 above. We are complete, NOT because of the sign, but because we are regarded as IN HIM. Shall the Jewish lad of eight days old be counted as not circumcised because the Rabbi's knife left a 1 mm (1/25 inch) square patch of foreskin? It is the "sign" that counts and not the depths he was dunked to. I propose that we should be completely buried in water in Jesus' name. And if some knee-jerk reaction leaves the nose uncovered, let us trust God that he is satisfied with the sign and the obedience. When a Jew tithed his mustard seed harvest, shall he count every one?

 

Thank you for a detailed perspective. Yes in heart I know that it probably fine. But my flesh still wants to hear it and get better perspective about it. Thank you!

[Cntrysner]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Here in Colossians 2 we see that Baptism is the replacement for circumcision

That is an assumption on your part. 

Circumcision was a required covenant sign to Abraham. Genesis 17:14... "Any uncircumcised male who has not been circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant". 

Water baptism was a required priestly immersion…Exo 29:4  And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water. Israel was to be a kingdom of priests …Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. John the Baptist preached the kingdom message and was preparing the people of Israel with baptism to enter the kingdom as priests with Christ as their high priest. 

Both circumcision and baptism were required and both operations were performed by the hands of men under the law.

Physical circumcision was a type that foreshadowed circumcision of the heart which is an operation of God… Deu 30:6. Physical baptism was replaced with Spiritual baptism without hands into Christ…Col 2:12. As Paul said… 1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Paul further clarifies this truth in Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 

If anything was replaced it is the physical with the Spiritual ..made without hands. The old man dies by circumcision in the removal of the flesh and then is buried and raised to life in Christ through faith in, in what?, the Spiritual operation of God. Again, both circumcision and baptism are required and now both are without law and without hands in the operations of God which we receive through the faith of Christ.  

[The_Patriot21]

On 6/13/2024 at 3:10 AM, Grace j said:

My 7yr old decided that he would like to be baptized but he kind of fears putting his eyes ears and head under water,  he just have a hard time with it, even in shower he would just do it so quickly as if its not water falling on his head but a lava :D. So during baptism at the time of submersion he panicked and made his body stiff and the guy who was baptising wasn't able to bring him all the way submerged in the water quickly,  he went upto  his face area staying outside the water keeping mouth and nose outside the water. 😆 So i am wondering is he actually baptized? Even though his eyes and nose didn't submerge?

By the "letter of the law" no, he was not fully immersed.

However we need to keep in mind, that baptism doesn't get us into heaven, Christ's grace does, and our following Him does. 

Seven is awful young to be baptized. I was baptized about the same age. But Ill be honest while I know I gave my life to Christ, I'm not sure I totally understood baptism then, and just last year I ended up getting re baptized.

If you raise your son in Christ and he continues in his walk with the Lord, when he gets older, the Holy spirit can and will convict him about the baptism if it wasn't done with the right understanding or method, and he will seek to do it again. 

So I wouldn't really worry about it. I mean under the letter of the law, no he didn't totally "immerse" but under grace, it's the act that's more important then perhaps a couple inches of his head going under.

If His heart is pure God knows that. I doubt he will care if he went all the way under. And if He does, like I said your son will likely be convicted to do it again once he's older.

 

[Cntrysner]

4 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

By the "letter of the law" no, he was not fully immersed.

 

Hello @The_Patriot21 

Christ's sacrifice freed us from the law....(Gal 3:13), why would one follow it?

 

4 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

Seven is awful young to be baptized. I was baptized about the same age. But Ill be honest while I know I gave my life to Christ, I'm not sure I totally understood baptism then, and just last year I ended up getting re baptized.

You gave your life to Christ, what further understanding about baptism led you to re baptism?  

[The_Patriot21]

5 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

 

Hello @The_Patriot21 

Christ's sacrifice freed us from the law....(Gal 3:13), why would one follow it?

 

You gave your life to Christ, what further understanding about baptism led you to re baptism?  

To answer your question according to Paul in Roman, the law does two things, it defines sin, and it condemns us, which is why we need a Savior.

However the "letter of the law" I was using was more of a figure of speech, I wasn't referring to the OT law at all. I was referring to baptism.

See the word baptise isn't a translated word but a transliterated word. It comes from the Greek word baptizo which literary means to immerse. The proper translation would be We are to be immersed into Christ.

So if the top two inches of your head is above the water, your not "technically" immersed. Ergo my "letter of the law" comment.

But as I said God looks at the heart, and being 7 I doubt He's going to be all that concerned about a couple inches, but rather the child's faith.

To answer your question I had strayed in my adult life and had some unrepented sin, which I repented of, which was part of it, the other part when I got baptized early on, and I remember it clearly, I do, but I didn't really understand what it was. I just did it because I was told I needed to.

When I got re baptize it was partly because of that, and partly because I was finally ready to fully serve the Lord, and mostly because I felt convicted it was something I needed to do.

 

 

[Cntrysner]

2 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

To answer your question according to Paul in Roman, the law does two things, it defines sin, and it condemns us, which is why we need a Savior.

Paul uses even stronger language than condemnation of the law as in those who participate in it are under God’s curse which means to…“invoke judgment, calamity or curses upon one's enemies or those perceived as the enemies of God“.

2 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

However the "letter of the law" I was using was more of a figure of speech, I wasn't referring to the OT law at all. I was referring to baptism.

See the word baptise isn't a translated word but a transliterated word. It comes from the Greek word baptizo which literary means to immerse. The proper translation would be We are to be immersed into Christ.

So if the top two inches of your head is above the water, your not "technically" immersed. Ergo my "letter of the law" comment.

But as I said God looks at the heart, and being 7 I doubt He's going to be all that concerned about a couple inches, but rather the child's faith.

Yes were are saved by grace, Amen!… but I caution you to not use a figure of speech that can led one to follow the law. 

To obey the “letter of the law” is to follow the literal reading of the words of the law, Gal 3:10...  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You related “letter of the law” to water immersion which is true, Do you believe water immersion was under the law? Why or why not?
 

2 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

To answer your question I had strayed in my adult life and had some unrepented sin, which I repented of, which was part of it, the other part when I got baptized early on, and I remember it clearly, I do, but I didn't really understand what it was. I just did it because I was told I needed to.

Brother, confusion around water baptism has always been since John’s baptism and many have had your experience of doubt and misunderstanding, some believe it is still for the remission of sins as in Acts 2:38.   

3 hours ago, The_Patriot21 said:

When I got re baptize it was partly because of that, and partly because I was finally ready to fully serve the Lord, and mostly because I felt convicted it was something I needed to do.

Christ sacrificed Himself for us so that we can escape the curse of the law and our works of righteousness which both profit nothing in the doing and He now freely gives us all things in Christ… His obedience , His righteousness under the law, and His inheritance as a son. When our Father looks at us He sees Christ. 

[The_Patriot21]

16 minutes ago, Cntrysner said:

Paul uses even stronger language than condemnation of the law as in those who participate in it are under God’s curse which means to…“invoke judgment, calamity or curses upon one's enemies or those perceived as the enemies of God“.

Yes were are saved by grace, Amen!… but I caution you to not use a figure of speech that can led one to follow the law. 

To obey the “letter of the law” is to follow the literal reading of the words of the law, Gal 3:10...  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You related “letter of the law” to water immersion which is true, Do you believe water immersion was under the law? Why or why not?
 

Brother, confusion around water baptism has always been since John’s baptism and many have had your experience of doubt and misunderstanding, some believe it is still for the remission of sins as in Acts 2:38.   

Christ sacrificed Himself for us so that we can escape the curse of the law and our works of righteousness which both profit nothing in the doing and He now freely gives us all things in Christ… His obedience , His righteousness under the law, and His inheritance as a son. When our Father looks at us He sees Christ. 

I used a figure of speech to make a point, a point that you didn't understand, and I get that which is why I explained it, but your making a mountain out of a molehill which is going to do nothing by side rail an otherwise healthy conversation into a circular debate over something we likely agree on.

I'm not in the make everyone happy game. I try to write in a way so people understand, and sometimes I use figures of speech. I'm not sorry about it nor will I apologize for doing it, and I will probably do it again. I'm not going to change my method of speaking because one person failed to understand it, especially after it's explained to them.

I have no issue clarifying a point someone misunderstood, but I'm not getting into a lengthy debate over your misunderstanding, as it not only detracts from the point I was making, but also from the original topic. Have a nice day ;)

 

[AdHoc]

On 6/14/2024 at 11:28 AM, Cntrysner said:

That is an assumption on your part. 

Circumcision was a required covenant sign to Abraham. Genesis 17:14... "Any uncircumcised male who has not been circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant". 

Water baptism was a required priestly immersion…Exo 29:4  And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water. Israel was to be a kingdom of priests …Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. John the Baptist preached the kingdom message and was preparing the people of Israel with baptism to enter the kingdom as priests with Christ as their high priest. 

Both circumcision and baptism were required and both operations were performed by the hands of men under the law.

Physical circumcision was a type that foreshadowed circumcision of the heart which is an operation of God… Deu 30:6. Physical baptism was replaced with Spiritual baptism without hands into Christ…Col 2:12. As Paul said… 1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Paul further clarifies this truth in Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 

If anything was replaced it is the physical with the Spiritual ..made without hands. The old man dies by circumcision in the removal of the flesh and then is buried and raised to life in Christ through faith in, in what?, the Spiritual operation of God. Again, both circumcision and baptism are required and now both are without law and without hands in the operations of God which we receive through the faith of Christ.  

You have mixed two different things.

(1) According to Romans 6 we are immersed in Christ's death. So the earth before Adam (Gen.1.2) and at Noah's time (2nd Pet.3:6). The result of baptism is that you should "perish". So also Christ spoke of His death as "Baptism" and said that His disciples would partake of the same. Abraham must transverse "the flood" long before he receives the Covenant because he worshiped idols (Josh.24:2-3). Israel, who worshiped Egyptian gods must pass through a flood (Josh 24:14). WE must too (1st Cor.10:1-11). From all these, Baptism is not a washing of the flesh. It is a washing of the conscience (1st Pet.3:20-21) and symbolizes the old being killed and buried.

There is no such thing as a "Spiritual Baptism". The one "made without hands" is Christ's death applied to us. That which happens to a Christian at Pentecost is an immersion, but not in water. The Greek is "pletho" and means "furnished". Baptism is always IMMERSION in water. In John 3:3 you can ONLY SEE the kingdom without Baptism. It needs water immersion to ENTER the Kingdom in verse 5. And if you take the Spirit as literal in John 3:3-6, you have to take the water as literal.

There is no baptism under Law. Only circumcision. But circumcision was anchored in Covenant before the Law. Law only regulates circumcision. And because it is anchored in the Covenant of Promise it is valid. Circumcision is a "sign" (Rom.4:11). Without it the Israelite is to be "cut off from his people." He may not inherit the Land. So in Daniel 12:1-2 "many" but not NOT "all" are resurrected and restored to the Land. Israel could not pass Gllgal before they were circumcised, but thy had already buried the 12 twelve stones in the Jordan "at flood".

(2) The Laver of the Tabernacle is not for all Israel. It was supposed to be for the Firstborn. After the debacle with the Midianites it was for the House of Levi only. It can be used as a Type of Baptism but it comes short because because not all males must be washed in the Laver. In the New Testament all Christians fall under the Covenant of Promise (Gal.3:29). But while circumcision  is good enough ofr inheriting Canaan, it falls short for inheriting the world (Rom.4:13, 1st cor.15:50)

[AdHoc]

On 6/14/2024 at 12:26 AM, Grace j said:

 

 

Thank you for a detailed perspective. Yes in heart I know that it probably fine. But my flesh still wants to hear it and get better perspective about it. Thank you!

You are fully right to ask. Baptism is too important to get wrong. The saints at Ephesus did not receive the Holy Spirit because of one detail (Act.19).

[Cntrysner]

On 6/17/2024 at 1:07 PM, The_Patriot21 said:

I used a figure of speech to make a point, a point that you didn't understand, and I get that which is why I explained it, but your making a mountain out of a molehill which is going to do nothing by side rail an otherwise healthy conversation into a circular debate over something we likely agree on.

I apologze if I offended you. The topic of discussion is water baptism and one needs to lay the foundation with it’s beginning, purpose , method and it’s efficacy. ..there is a mountain of misunderstanding about it. 

On 6/17/2024 at 1:07 PM, The_Patriot21 said:

I'm not in the make everyone happy game. I try to write in a way so people understand, and sometimes I use figures of speech. I'm not sorry about it nor will I apologize for doing it, and I will probably do it again. I'm not going to change my method of speaking because one person failed to understand it, especially after it's explained to them.

I was not intending for you to “make me happy” and this is not a game to me, I was looking for a discussion. I didn’t not ask you to apologize .. I cautioned you so others would not be confused.

On 6/17/2024 at 1:07 PM, The_Patriot21 said:

I have no issue clarifying a point someone misunderstood, but I'm not getting into a lengthy debate over your misunderstanding, as it not only detracts from the point I was making, but also from the original topic. Have a nice day ;)

 

I have no misunderstanding, I am concerned about others who read the thread in search of truth.

Water baptism was under the “letter of the law” and if one partakes of it they are bound to the whole law. John’s mode of baptism was not questioned by the priests and Levites and they understood it was a priestly purification ritual to enter the coming kingdom as priest. Christ gave His life’s blood to remove us from the law. Water baptism is nothing to the Body of Christ who have been baptized by the Spirit.

Eph 4:3  Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 
Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The one baptism has nothing to do with water it is the Spiritual operation of God. 

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Co_12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.