Why Are There So Many Denominations In The Church

[RdJ]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

Yes, indeed the pentecostal church is not boring in their worship and preaching sessions.  Some can be overdramatic in expression and dancing on the stage is permitted , of course non vulgar types.   More so, if you ever been to a caribbean type pentecostal church, wow, you would be blown away, or I hate to say it like this, but to get to the point the black church, they can really put on a performance.  

The preaching can go anywhere and I verse can be the whole of scripture read and the rest of the sermon , examples and stories to accentuate the points made. Well, I don't have to outline all of it as most people would have at least visit or attend a pentecostal church at some point and compared to other denominations, their program service keeps the congregation tuned.

The part that is questionable and at least to my visits to pentecostal churches is the closing of the service, that always culminate with the speaking of tongues by most of the congregation as the pastor or preacher makes alter calls for prayer and the laying on of hands, which leads to falling backwards , meanwhile many praying in tongues as to assist or seemingly invite or keep the holy spirit intensity and presence during that closing session.   That part of the service does not fit to well with me, as the speaking in tongues at that point is not done accordingly to scripture.

In a way, I can see if the holy spirit is genuinely moving in a place and en mass , then the jubilation and worship ect., would be an act of uncontrolable praise and worship.  Many thinks or believe those spiritual experience are false or fakes, but I can say , the falling down and others are real , as their are real spirits in operation there as I have felt them.

In my early days of going to a pentecostal church, I was cautious as I had not to long ago had teriffying affliction by an unseen force, as I would call it at this time, that I though I was going to die.  So usually, I would not go up to alter calls and be prayed for ect. One day, I prayed and then made the decision to go and it did not go to well, is all I would say for now.  But my point is , I felt that spiritual movement there .   I would leave the observation like this and let others comment.

Now, I don't know if all pentecostal church services are like this, as I know their are different sects or branches that holds different beliefs and do service in their way.

The fundamental Baptist Church on the other hand, if you are not a keen follower of the preacher points, you can easily droop the head and struggle to stay awake.  They have a set routine and they belive God is a God of order and so do things that is formal and in a set pattern.

Yes that's true. They all speak in tongues during the service. Went there the first time with my brother (not even saved yet) and we were bumping each other cause we tried to fit in there. Hands up. Hands down. Left hand up. No down. No both. No only right hand. It made no sense. Everyone did something else.

In evangelical churches they don't. In our church we only did it silently or with a group in a prayer meeting where everyone spoke in tongues, but if people joined who didn't, we wouldn't do it either.

[RdJ]

2 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

The account we read in Acts 2, was a specific miraculous event which took place around 2000 years ago. Nothing like that has ever happened since that time.

So that event is not something we will ever see, nobody else was ever given any special powers to perform miracles after the Apostles.

We hear of healing ministries and deliverance ministries, but we know these are all fake as they have no special abilities or power to perform any supernatural feats. 

The other scriptures you mentioned are all future events, we haven't seen any of them take place yet. The sun has never been darkened and none of those other events have taken place yet.   

They are not all fake. There is crazy stuff with fake gold powder and angel feathers, but that's more New Age if you ask me. I was in a church from a guy. T.L. Osborn went to Holland in 1958. Majority was reformed or protestant. There were 5 evangelical churches in the country. Then we had the Holland Wonder outside somewhere. They had to bring their own chairs. His translator started pentecostal churches. I got saved in one. A guy from his church later also started churches. I was in a church from him. He had healing meetings where a lot of people from the whole country from any denomination would go to and miracles happened. I was in that church. We had a prayer basket. My dad said that my aunt from Australia didnt recognize her grandkids anymore, had a brain tumor and it was horrible. I threw her name in the prayer basket. We prayed with the whole church. Next day she called my mom and said God had done a miracle. Other aunt got healed from cancer in a healing meeting from him. My dad brought her. My FIL had cancer everywhere. We prayed. Totally gone. Doctors said Your God has done a miracle. My dad saw all that stuff and he went to his neighbour who was sick. He said you need to go to that healing meeting. They said: We don't believe in God. He said: Me neither but I have seen some amazing things happen. One woman was in the Newspaper. All checked by a reformed doctor. He did a whole study about people who got healed there.  But there's also a lot of bad stuff, charismania. You have to watch out. Bill Johnson, gravesucking, gold dust, I stay away from all that nonsense.

[Neighbor]

7 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

God gave very strict instructions on what constitutes a Church

Including the very cool promise that: 

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Wow, no secret handshake nothing.

Matthew 18 also contains  lots of behavioral rules and precepts for behavior  including  methods for handling discord between  members within the local body, one Christian to another; concluding with: 

 "Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

As for me I shall try to find commonality in the dependence on the faith of Jesus between all who have been called out by the Holy Spirit.  I hope that I do not try  to find that which may give opening to the many little antichrists that will drive a wedge of distrust and even disdain between us all. 

I find I like Paul's deliberate pliability in that regard-  As is expressed in one of his letters to those Christians at Corinth  who were divided into differing camps of thought  as to what is right behavior and association:

 ..."For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;  and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;  to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;  to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.  Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.' "....

 

 

 

 

 

[Neighbor]

7 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

Nothing like that has ever happened since that time.

 Actually I have been there when it has happened, at a Billy Graham crusade event. It startled all of us there including Billy Graham, who just stopped speaking in mid sentence looked up and saw perhaps 45,000 people on the move downward onto the already packed football playing field where I  was  seated on the turf some few feet in foot of the startled Graham's stage and podium.

Thousands upon thousands broke into prayer, the physical atmosphere changed, the temperature changed,  the managers of the event were overwhelmed by all those that just came together before the stage and all out through the entry parking lots areas. It was estimated that there were some 85,000 people there.  I believe it to have been closer to 110,000 packing the entirety of that area seats aisles field entries parking lot. Many tens of thousands praying praising and sharing one with another without harming anyone despite the crowding, having received the Holy Spirit.

I can't give testimony of other events, but that one I was led by the Holy Spirit to be at, and it was absolutely an amazing wonderment. 

 

[Michael37]

10 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "mixing", but it doesn't sound like fellowship. To fellowship with people who hold to opposing doctrines and theological views is to denounce your own Church. 

Fellowship means to agree with each other and worship together, this is not possible while we have radically different beliefs about who God is and how He should be worshiped. 

To discuss topics about Christianity has nothing to do with fellowship, since hardly anyone agrees with others, when it comes to the interpretation of scripture and their particular system of theology. 

My Church goes door knocking regularly, and we spend many hours discussing Christianity with people from all kinds of religions and Christian Denominations. We don't have any fellowship with them, unless we happen upon another Reformed person, but Jesus commanded us to go into all the world preaching the Holy Trinity. 

So sharing the Gospel, and preaching the Holy Trinity as One Godhead is not fellowship, it's just what we do out of obedience.    

Denominational pride is ubiquitous. 

[Vine Abider]

8 hours ago, warrior12 said:

I will give an example of a church that has statues that are strictly enforced.  If a member is living with another person and the church finds out, then that person is called in for  counsel and if they continue, they are then taken of the members list. It is considered as fornication and living in sin.

How would you conclude on a church that implement those standards.  

Not entirely sure what your exact question is . . . is it would you become part of that fellowship - or would you fellowship at all with them - or are they even a genuine church?

I think the answer to the first is if the Anointing is telling you to become part of that fellowship, then yes, do so; if they have way-out teachings, would I fellowship with them?  If we could have fellowship around Christ and not questionable/highly erroneous things, then yes.

Anyone is a genuine church, in my estimation, if they have been born-again and have the life of Christ in them.  By definition such ones are part of His body (no matter how far off they seem) IMHO.

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Charlie1988 said:

That's an interesting historical summary, I would just like to point out to things of concern. You mention that there was an undue emphasis o the Holy spirit, instead of Christ during the revivals in the 1960's. I don't see that as an issue at all, I think it's good and right, because Jesus ascended back to heaven 2000 years ago and He hasn't spoken a single word to us and nobody has spoken a single word to Him in those 2000 years. 

Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit, so He is all we have at this time. We won't be with the Lord Jesus Christ until we die. So our only link to the Godhead on this side of eternity is the Holy Spirit Himself. 

The other thing that concerns me is, you say that during the revival people came from mainline denominations and they were filled with the Holy Spirit, but they didn't leave their Denominations. I may have misunderstood what you meant here, but it sounded as though large numbers of people were being indwelt by the Holy Spirit during those crusades.

My understanding is that a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit after they are regenerated and born again. I don't believe this takes place for large numbers of people at the same time, I believe there's a lengthy process of preparation before a person is born again. it's not something that happens, during an alter call. You don't walk down the isle as an unconverted person and walk back as a converted person just because someone laid hands on you and prayed over you.  

Hi Charlie,

Now do you remember Jesus saying -

`However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears he will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and declare it to you.` (John 16: 13 & 14)

`God who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son...` (Heb. 1: 1 & 2)

You see it is Christ the Head of the body that is building and maturing and telling the Holy Spirit what to say and do.

Yes, you`re right (and I agree) that people weren`t in a revival meeting and receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Holy Spirit is with us at our birth, however, it is for us to ask for the continual infilling. 

[Vine Abider]

4 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Including the very cool promise that: 

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Wow, no secret handshake nothing.

  Best one of the day!

[Charlie1988]

8 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Do they have Christ in them, that is, are they reborn?  Then that makes them members of the body.  Now their teaching may be deemed unhealthy, and that may be some consideration, but if they have the life of Christ in them, by definition they are members of His body .  . . 

Yes that's the all important question, but how do we know if they are truly born again believers or if their profession of faith is false. We can't simply assume someone is a genuine Christian, just because they attend some Church services. 

I don't see how members of one Church can have fellowship with members of other Churches, unless their Churches hold to the same systematic theology. Fellowship means to agree with each other, for example, I can't have fellowship with Christians who don't believe that God is sovereign over all things and the sad reality is that 95% of Christians don't believe that He is. 

I can't have fellowship with people who believe in a different god, the God I believe in is sovereign over every single aspect of everyone's life. The God I believe in is in full control over everything that happens and exists in the universe. 95% of Christians reject this so we can't have fellowship while we disagree on who God is.

I don't believe a person can be a born again believer while believing in a god that doesn't exist, so I can't have any fellowship with such people.     

[Vine Abider]

20 minutes ago, Charlie1988 said:

Yes that's the all important question, but how do we know if they are truly born again believers or if their profession of faith is false. We can't simply assume someone is a genuine Christian, just because they attend some Church services. 

I don't see how members of one Church can have fellowship with members of other Churches, unless their Churches hold to the same systematic theology. Fellowship means to agree with each other, for example, I can't have fellowship with Christians who don't believe that God is sovereign over all things and the sad reality is that 95% of Christians don't believe that He is. 

I can't have fellowship with people who believe in a different god, the God I believe in is sovereign over every single aspect of everyone's life. The God I believe in is in full control over everything that happens and exists in the universe. 95% of Christians reject this so we can't have fellowship while we disagree on who God is.

I don't believe a person can be a born again believer while believing in a god that doesn't exist, so I can't have any fellowship with such people.     

I get it and probably line-up with about all the things you listed.  However, doesn't this fall into the discussion of the basic items of our oneness in Christ?  That is, the idea that we should hold tightly to a very few "core" items of the faith and hold the nonessentials more loosely, so that we can indeed have fellowship with all blood-bought believers in our one Lord.   Of course, then it comes down to what one believes are the core essentials of the faith to hold tightly to, right?  Some have a very expanded list of these core items, and therefore exclude more dear ones from their sphere of fellowship.

Personally, I have maybe 4-5 things which I won't let go of in any fellowship.  I've found that many times the majority of folks agree, but then, as the discussion progresses, more & more things always seem to get added to the essentials list!     This is how denominations and splits are created, and I think eventually, if given enough time, we'd probably have millions of these little walled-off groups not fellowshipping with each other! 

"Walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."  Eph 4:1-6