Warning: Don't be caught sleeping when the "Thief" comes!

[Cntrysner]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Thank you very much for your answer. I have read it and noted it.

Brother, I was looking forward to your rebuttal, hope you find time to reply.

[AdHoc]

On 9/11/2024 at 12:00 PM, Cntrysner said:

Brother, I was looking forward to your rebuttal, hope you find time to reply.

I appreciate the time you took to answer me, and for the comprehensive answer itself. On page 3, about one quarter from the top, you gave your view of the matter under discussion. On page 4 also about a quarter from the top, I gave a comprehensive and fully documented reply. I feel that some of your answers on page 8 contradicted your view on page 3. Added to this, I have not revised my opinion since page 4 and you chose to ignore much of it. This is your right but I don't want to write it all again. So I feel that we've each said our piece and it has been noted by both parties.

But, I feel i owe you for your courtesy shown by your comprehensive postings, so I will answer indirectly on major themes you listed.

Jesus' death and resurrection.
° Matthew 12:40 says that "like as" Jonah was three days in the belly of the great fish, Jesus would be in the heart of the earth.
° Ephesians 4:8-9 says that our Lord Jesis "FIRST DESCENDED"
° John 20:17 tells us that Jesus had NOT YET ascended but that he would
Concusion;
- There can be no talk of Jesus gong to heaven at death. He was in Hades
- Jesus was dead just like any other man because that is what He paid for
- Jesus was dead and His body, soul and spirit were sundered
- Jesus did not take a spiritual body at death. he was "naked" without His earthly tabernacle (2nd Cor.5:1-5). He tasted death for EVERY MAN
- Jesus took His original Body with the wounds THREE DAYS LATER
_ Jesus' resurrection was proof that sin and sins were all put away for the wages of sin is death and if one little sin remained he could not have been raised
- Jesus was not "quickened by the Spirit" at death. he was "quickened" after three days

Lazarus and the rich man;
° The narrative is a true story because proper names were used. If Jesus told a story about Abraham that never happened he would be caught in a lie.
° The rich man was a Jew because he said "father Abraham". As a Jew he would be subject to Deuteronomy 15:7-8 and thus broke the Law
° The rich man was in Hades and in torment.
° Lazarus was also in Hades and needed to be comforted. As his body was put off his earthly suffering was over but he was now "naked" and "groaned" in nakedness (2nd Cor.5:1-5)
° Neither man had been judged for only the LIVING are judged AFTER resurrection
° Both men will partake of the resurrection of the Jews as they died before Christ and Lazarus claimed the Law for help and not Christ
° Abraham, a man of FAITH, was still in Hades. That Abraham is born again is shown by the fact that he will be in the kingdom (Matt.8:11, Jn.3:3-5)
° David was still in Hades 50 days after Jesus' resurrection (Act.2:26-34)

Lazarus of Bethany, the friend and beloved of Jesus
- Jesus said that Lazarus was dead
- Lazarus was witnessed as being in the grave 4 days
The following is the statements of scripture concerning men in John 11:23-26

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In verse 23 Lazarus would RISE (future tense). That means that he was BELOW
In verse 24 Martha understood that the resurrection would normally take place at a date far future. Jesus agreed with her (Jn.6:44).
In verses 25-26 Jesus does not address ALL MEN. Both the men mentioned were "BELIEVERS"
The "believer" in verse 25 is dead and "SHALL LIVE" (future tense)
The "believer" in verse 26 is alive and "SHALL NEVER DIE" The context is "the last day" agreed by by both Jesus and Martha. Seeing that Jesus is recorded TWICE as saying that He loved Lazarus very much, AND He spoke of "believers" rising while discussing Lazarus, it is safe to assume that Lazarus was a "believer". This is further proven by the type of "two days". The chastisement of Israel in Hosea 6:2 is two days. Jesus stay with the Samaritans in John 4 for two days. Jesus comes for a wedding in John 2 after two days - a wedding where He is not the Groom. All these show that the New Testament age, when Jesus goes to the Gentiles, is 2 days, or 2,000 years. Lazarus is raised first at the coming of Jesus (1st Cor.15:23) BEFORE He goes to Jerusalem.

Added to this, in John Chapter 5, our Lord speaks of those who have eternal life passing from death to life IN CONTRAST to those who are "ALL" in the graves. They only hear His vice in death and are raised for the White Throne judgment 1,000 years later than "when He comes".

To summarize then:
- At death all mean are divided in their three distinct parts - each going to a different destination
- There is no body given other than the original one. This original body returns to the elements and is reconstructed by the Holy Spirit
- Besides the few cases of resurrection for special circumstances, the order of resurrection from BELOW (for they RISE) is "WHEN JESUS COMES" (1st Cor.15:23)
- In Luke 8:55 a maiden is raised by Christ. her spirit "CAME" again, showing that it went away at death
- In 1st Kings 17:22 a boy resurrected SOUL CAME to him - showing that it had departed
- In 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5 we put off our earthly Tabernacle and receive NO OTHER for we GROAN in nakedness
_ In 1st Corinthians 15:35 onward, it describes the BODY that is RAISED. Throughout it is the SAME BODY. The grammar forbids any other conclusion. "IT" is sown ... "IT" is raised. "IT" is the same Body.

[Cntrysner]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

I appreciate the time you took to answer me, and for the comprehensive answer itself. On page 3, about one quarter from the top, you gave your view of the matter under discussion. On page 4 also about a quarter from the top, I gave a comprehensive and fully documented reply. I feel that some of your answers on page 8 contradicted your view on page 3. Added to this, I have not revised my opinion since page 4 and you chose to ignore much of it. This is your right but I don't want to write it all again. So I feel that we've each said our piece and it has been noted by both parties.

At times we use the same scriptures to prove our different views and both of us feel the other has not fully responded. We define the same words differently which leads to talking past each other in an attempt to resolve what happens to us at the moment of death and what type of body we ultimately will have. You believe in a resurrected body of earthly elements with an earthly inheritance. I believe in a Spiritual body in the express image of the ascended Christ with a heavenly inheritance. Both views are found in the scriptures and represented by Jesus the Christ.
Jesus left His body of flesh and descended into the earth and rose back into His flesh body. Christ also left the Spirit body He had with the Father before the world began (Spirit union in oneness) and descended to earth then ascended back to the Father returning to the Spirit body.

Christ’s resurrected body was recognizable and had enhanced powers yet His body after the beatings and crucifixion was unrecognizable (Isa 52:14). Some type of healing to His body must have taken place.
Yet, at Christ’s ascension He was transfiguring before them thus indicating more of a change was needed to return to the Father in Glory. Christ ascended 40 days after His resurrection, 40 days in Judaism represents a significant change or transformation.

In the Body of Christ we are inseparable from Christ, we are resurrected with Him in newness of life (Rom 6:4) by faith in the operation of God and will ascended with Him to the right hand of God (Eph 2:6).

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

But, I feel i owe you for your courtesy shown by your comprehensive postings, so I will answer indirectly on major themes you listed.

 Because you chose not to respond via quotes is ignoring much of my rebuttal. I ask that you directly respond and answer my questions on page 8, I also don’t want to rewrite it all again. Your outline and summary is restating your argument but I will respond.          

[Cntrysner]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

Jesus' death and resurrection.
° Matthew 12:40 says that "like as" Jonah was three days in the belly of the great fish, Jesus would be in the heart of the earth.
° Ephesians 4:8-9 says that our Lord Jesis "FIRST DESCENDED"
° John 20:17 tells us that Jesus had NOT YET ascended but that he would

True, I have no disagreement.

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

Concusion;
- There can be no talk of Jesus gong to heaven at death. He was in Hade

True, But there is more…He transfigured from His flesh and ascended and we must follow Him.

 

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

- Jesus was dead just like any other man because that is what He paid for
- Jesus was dead and His body, soul and spirit were sundered

Come now, you know Jesus was not like any other man and you also know that the Spirit of God descended on Him and remained on Him (Joh 1:33).The Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, He was always with Him (Rom 8:11).   If you believe the Spirit, big S, left Him at death, please show proof. Jesus said without God He could do nothing (Joh 5:30). The power of the Holy Spirit was needed to defeat death and hell. The Spirit indwells believers and will never leave us and we will not be found naked at death (2 Co 5:3).

 

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

- Jesus did not take a spiritual body at death.

Jesus received the Spirit at His baptism and it never left Him. Christ veiled his divinity in flesh…He was never not divine.

Joh 1:32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 
2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.  

Abode…A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

he was "naked" without His earthly tabernacle (2nd Cor.5:1-5). He tasted death for EVERY MAN

I don’t understand how you can use these verses to prove Jesus was just a naked soul at death. 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 
2Co 5:2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 
2Co 5:3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 
2Co 5:4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 
2Co 5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 
2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 

We will not be found naked, we will be clothed in the Spirit. We groan in this tabernacle, it is the body of sin (Rom 6:6), desiring to leave it and be present with the Lord (2 Co 5:8). Believers being absent from the body is not nakedness, it is a unveiling of the earnest of the Spirit.
 

 

[Cntrysner]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

_ Jesus' resurrection was proof that sin and sins were all put away for the wages of sin is death and if one little sin remained he could not have been raised
- Jesus was not "quickened by the Spirit" at death. he was "quickened" after three days

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 
1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 
Jesus was quickened by the Spirit before He descended and preached to the spirits and why are spirits there? You say the spirit returns to God at death.

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

Lazarus and the rich man;
° The narrative is a true story because proper names were used. If Jesus told a story about Abraham that never happened he would be caught in a lie.
° The rich man was a Jew because he said "father Abraham". As a Jew he would be subject to Deuteronomy 15:7-8 and thus broke the Law
° The rich man was in Hades and in torment.
° Lazarus was also in Hades and needed to be comforted. As his body was put off his earthly suffering was over but he was now "naked" and "groaned" in nakedness (2nd Cor.5:1-5)

I agree, before the cross believers and non believers descended at death but those in the body of Christ after the cross ascend, Paul said 2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Those in Christ’s Body will not groan in nakedness at death, we groan in this tabernacle and will not be found naked at anytime. 
2Co 5:3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 
2Co 5:4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.  

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

° Neither man had been judged for only the LIVING are judged AFTER resurrection
° Both men will partake of the resurrection of the Jews as they died before Christ and Lazarus claimed the Law for help and not Chris

 I agree, the resurrected will be judged. The father has given all judgment to Christ and Christ will not judge His Body members, it would be like Christ was judging Himself. The price for sin was paid at the cross and if we accept that free gift (Rom 6:23) we have already been judged in Christ and will not descend and suffer death, He is our substitute and we receive the righteousness of God (2 Co 5:21). This righteousness is sealed in us via the Holy Spirit, it is a down payment (Eph 1:11-14).

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

° Abraham, a man of FAITH, was still in Hades. That Abraham is born again is shown by the fact that he will be in the kingdom (Matt.8:11, Jn.3:3-5)
° David was still in Hades 50 days after Jesus' resurrection (Act.2:26-34)

Abraham was a type, his faith was counted for righteousness yet we don’t relate to Abraham as our Father in faith, we identify with Christ and our faith is in Him.

Mat 23:9  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 3:8  Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 
Mat 3:9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 
Mat 3:10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 
Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Don’t you believe you must be water baptized to be born again? If so, please provide the scriptures that Abraham received John’s baptism of repentance for remission of sin.  

All men sin and fall short of the glory of God including the patriarchs, it’s fallen man’s nature, we must become a new creature created in Christ Jesus. 

I believe that Abraham and David will or did take part in resurrection of the dead and will enter the earthly kingdom come down from heaven. Christ descended and the dead saints rose (Mat 27:52), why would He leave David’s soul in hell?
 

[Cntrysner]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

Lazarus of Bethany, the friend and beloved of Jesus
- Jesus said that Lazarus was dead
- Lazarus was witnessed as being in the grave 4 days
The following is the statements of scripture concerning men in John 11:23-26

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In verse 23 Lazarus would RISE (future tense). That means that he was BELOW
In verse 24 Martha understood that the resurrection would normally take place at a date far future. Jesus agreed with her (Jn.6:44).
In verses 25-26 Jesus does not address ALL MEN. Both the men mentioned were "BELIEVERS"
The "believer" in verse 25 is dead and "SHALL LIVE" (future tense)
The "believer" in verse 26 is alive and "SHALL NEVER DIE" The context is "the last day" agreed by by both Jesus and Martha.

The last day can have many meanings. David spoke of the last day of his life (Psa 39:4). Martha believed Lazarus would rise on the last day when all in the graves would rise (Joh 5:28) yet Jesus raised Lazarus on that same day, Martha misunderstood and Jesus redirected her by stating that He was the resurrection (Joh 5:21). Jesus did not agree with her, it is proof that there is resurrection before the last day. Christ can quicken at will at anytime and when they believe at that moment He gives them eternal life, they don’t wait for it and they will never die. The context is not the last days it is Christ can quicken man at anytime… dead (Joh 11:25) or alive (Joh 11:26).

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

Seeing that Jesus is recorded TWICE as saying that He loved Lazarus very much, AND He spoke of "believers" rising while discussing Lazarus, it is safe to assume that Lazarus was a "believer". This is further proven by the type of "two days". The chastisement of Israel in Hosea 6:2 is two days. Jesus stay with the Samaritans in John 4 for two days. Jesus comes for a wedding in John 2 after two days - a wedding where He is not the Groom. All these show that the New Testament age, when Jesus goes to the Gentiles, is 2 days, or 2,000 years. Lazarus is raised first at the coming of Jesus (1st Cor.15:23) BEFORE He goes to Jerusalem.

Added to this, in John Chapter 5, our Lord speaks of those who have eternal life passing from death to life IN CONTRAST to those who are "ALL" in the graves. They only hear His vice in death and are raised for the White Throne judgment 1,000 years later than "when He comes".

You are mixing old testament scripture with new testament scripture in such a way that the Gospel of truth is hardly recognizable.  

Christ’s earthly ministry was to manifest Himself as Messiah to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, if they received Him as such they were believers but there was much more revelation of the gospel to come and they had to continue to believe as it was revealed to remain a believer. The progression of the gospel from an earthly kingdom of promise to the Spiritual kingdom of Christ at the Fathers right hand is seen in the body of Jesus Who was manifested in the flesh and resurrected in the earthly realm verses Christ manifested in the Spirit in ascension to the heavenly realm. We must go beyond the veil of Christ which was His flesh and step into the divine realm where Christ is at this moment.

Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 

If one does not accept the progression of truth in Christ revealed by His Spirit they will end up confused when comparing scripture with scripture to form their doctrine. One must also understand when the truth was revealed it was progressively understood and believed by those it was spoken to. Paul was given many revelations of Christ and it was as Peter said…hard to understand (2Pe 3:15-16). 

[Cntrysner]

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

To summarize then:
- At death all mean are divided in their three distinct parts - each going to a different destination
- There is no body given other than the original one. This original body returns to the elements and is reconstructed by the Holy Spirit
- Besides the few cases of resurrection for special circumstances, the order of resurrection from BELOW (for they RISE) is "WHEN JESUS COMES" (1st Cor.15:23)
- In Luke 8:55 a maiden is raised by Christ. her spirit "CAME" again, showing that it went away at death
- In 1st Kings 17:22 a boy resurrected SOUL CAME to him - showing that it had departed
- In 2nd Corinthians 5:1-5 we put off our earthly Tabernacle and receive NO OTHER for we GROAN in nakedness
_ In 1st Corinthians 15:35 onward, it describes the BODY that is RAISED. Throughout it is the SAME BODY. The grammar forbids any other conclusion

I have answered your summary in my above responses and hope that you receive them with openness as a brother in Christ
 

On 9/12/2024 at 6:06 PM, AdHoc said:

"IT" is sown ... "IT" is raised. "IT" is the same Body.

Christ was sown into this world in a natural body and resurrected into the same body and then raised again to the Father at His ascension  and returned as the Spirit in a Spirit body you just can’t see Him.

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 
2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 
2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 
2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 
2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 
 

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

I have answered your summary in my above responses and hope that you receive them with openness as a brother in Christ
 

Christ was sown into this world in a natural body and resurrected into the same body and then raised again to the Father at His ascension  and returned as the Spirit in a Spirit body you just can’t see Him.

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 
2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 
2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 
2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 
2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 
 

Thank you for your postings. You were very courteous for which I thank you for. You are also very good with a keyboard, which I am not (two fingers face down). It's midnight here so I won't try to answer you comprehensively. I judge that we can thrash two things out very quickly.
1. A main contentions of yours is this mysterious spirit-body of our Lord Jesus. But no scriptures are forthcoming. It is my understanding that our Lord made a point of showing Himself "Flesh and Bones" (Lk.24:39). There is no evidence that our Lord Jesus changed Himself whether to ascend to the Father or walk on water.

2. In Genesis 1:11-12 God established the Law of KINDS. This Law is still valid today and is the death-knell for evolution. It is so profound that our Lord Jesus is, at the same time, God and 100% Man. From the Holy Spirit (Lk.1:35) He must be God and as "seed of the woman" He must be 100% Man. I don't pretend to understand the Triune God, neither do I claim to fully comprehend incarnation. But our Lord Jesus is revealed having TWO NATURES. And although One Being, he is revealed as separate entities for His Work on earth. If He remains One then God could die a physical death which defies the whole revelation of God. It also defies the fact that only MAN could pay for the sins of men.

Thus, although it produces a great difficulty of logic, Jesus the MAN died on Golgotha and no part of His divinity was touched. How you want to explain that is your choice, but overturning this by John's Baptism and the Holy Spirit descending on Him to stay is patently wrong. Here's why;

Our Lord Jesus was God from His conception. The intrinsic nature of God was given at conception. The Holy Spirit He received at age 30 came UPON Him and "ABODE UPON" Him - not "IN" Him.. It was the same Holy Spirit but given outwardly for POWER FOR MINISTRY.

14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about (Lk.4:14)

Lastly, before I turn in, I would venture that you have completely misread the grammar of 2nd Corinthians 5. Here it is;

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The grammar assumes the earthly "house" to be dissolved. It is not destroyed but "dissolved" meaning that although water dissolves salt the salt is still there. This body made its way onto earth in the first place via the seed and the womb. But this way is no longer available. The elements must be reconstructed by Jesus, who is the "life-giving Spirit" (1st Cor.15.45) and Who happens to be bodily in heaven. Since we cannot die again this body, "tabernacle of the divine nature" is not only in heaven, but is "eternal" - having taken the nature that God said of Adam that he could never die if he partook of that life.

But even if you disagree, verse 2 declares our groaning. The groaning in our present corrupt body is in verse 4. That groaning of verse 2 is because of mortality for which reason we need a body constructed in heaven. But even if you further disagree, verse 3 is future tense and would make no sense if we are not naked in death. Verse 2 does not say, "we would groan" but "we DO groan". Verse 4 alludes to those who will be alive when Christ returns and who transition to the heavenly body in "the blink of an eye" (1st Cor.15:49-56).

1st Corinthians 15:35 onward tells which body comes. "IT is sown ... IT is raised" There is no argument. IT is the same body made of the same elements.

Thanks for the exchange.

 

[Cntrysner]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, AdHoc said:

Thank you for your postings. You were very courteous for which I thank you for. You are also very good with a keyboard, which I am not (two fingers face down). It's midnight here so I won't try to answer you comprehensively. I judge that we can thrash two things out very quickly.
1. A main contentions of yours is this mysterious spirit-body of our Lord Jesus. But no scriptures are forthcoming. It is my understanding that our Lord made a point of showing Himself "Flesh and Bones" (Lk.24:39).

Well, at least we are equal in our typing skills, This country boy pecks like a double beaked chicken close to starvation ..., however your writing skills are far superior to Mine. Quickly….

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 

Paul was referring to the express image of the ascended Christ he met on the road to Damascus. His image was far different than when he appeared to the disciples after resurrection. 

Jesus manifested flesh and bones in the natural realm and said He was not a spirit after resurrection because a spirit does not have flesh and bones yet now the ascended Christ is a Spirit, the same Spirit that appeared at Pentecost and the same Spirit that created before the world began.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 

The ascended Christ does not have a “spirit-body” He has a Spirit body yet it is a mystery because It is not manifest visibly to the natural man. God is a, big S, Spirit and tripartite thus it makes Him all powerful and above the spirit, small s, of man. 

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let US  make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The Father said let US make man in our image in verse 26 then the singular God is used in verse 27, thus the US reveals the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the singular tripartite God, in other words, the Son who is Christ, before creation was Spirit in the singular Spirit Body of God, not flesh, not bone, not human. 

Man was created in God’s image as tripartite.. body, soul and spirit not in the express image of God who now is Spirit, Spirit, and Spirit.

Adam’s image…
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.
 Adam’s likeness
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.
Ascended Christ’s express image…
From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person), that is, (by implication) engraving ([“character”], the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Flesh was Christ’s covering like you would put on clothing which is not a part of you, lest your nakedness be revealed, but Christ when His flesh was removed at ascension was not naked because of His divinity. 

Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The express image is an exact copy and God is Spirit not flesh and bone.

Our sins that Christ took in His body of flesh (1 Pet 2:24) were fully purged when Christ sat down at the Fathers right hand not before. God required the sacrificed flesh body of the red heifer, which Christ is the antitype, to be burned and the ashes mixed with water for purification to fulfill the law (Num 19). Mixing ashes with water makes lye which can severely burn flesh with a high concentration, you would not want to get it in your eyes… you could go blind.    

When was the flesh of Christ burned? I believe it happen when He was transfiguring and ascending to the Father, we know that the Spirit who is God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). Flesh of any type in God’s very presence would go… poof… up in smoke. Well, it would have to get past the fiery stones first…:). 

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 
2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 

On 9/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, AdHoc said:

There is no evidence that our Lord Jesus changed Himself whether to ascend to the Father or walk on water.

Here’s your evidence….

Christ transfigured at His ascension proven by three witnesses that literally saw it. (Mat 17:2, Mar 9:2).

From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively “metamorphose”): - change, transfigure, transform.   

On 9/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, AdHoc said:

2. In Genesis 1:11-12 God established the Law of KINDS. This Law is still valid today and is the death-knell for evolution.

What is this “Law of  Kinds” you keep referring to, it seems your doctrine depends on it, perhaps you could clarify. I Googled it and came up with nothing and it is not biblical terminology. There is God’s order of things that He controls by His will and there is God’s law that He does not completely control or man would not have free will.

We are born of man’s seed yet God changes the natural order when we are born again, surely God did not break His law in changing the natural order of life. 

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 

The new creature is not subject to law or an assumed law of kinds…But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.Rom 8:9 

On 9/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, AdHoc said:

It is so profound that our Lord Jesus is, at the same time, God and 100% Man. From the Holy Spirit (Lk.1:35) He must be God and as "seed of the woman" He must be 100% Man. I don't pretend to understand the Triune God, neither do I claim to fully comprehend incarnation. But our Lord Jesus is revealed having TWO NATURES. And although One Being, he is revealed as separate entities for His Work on earth. If He remains One then God could die a physical death which defies the whole revelation of God. It also defies the fact that only MAN could pay for the sins of men.

I don’t truly understand it either but we can help each other to get a better understanding.

I believe, His flesh was not one with God it was the seed of a woman, yet He also was 100% God by the Father‘s seed. We know God is not flesh and  He can not die neither can His seed.  Christ the Spirit was cloaked in flesh and experienced pain in the flesh and suffrage in the spirit just as we do but He also suffered in the Spirit a more excruciating pain than we can imagine because of His agape love for mankind. Because of Oneness the Trinity also suffered extremely. My understanding in the two entities is one seed of the woman can die but the other born of God can not die, He, God’s seed, had eternal life at birth thus death could not tear Him asunder.  

On 9/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, AdHoc said:

Thus, although it produces a great difficulty of logic, Jesus the MAN died on Golgotha and no part of His divinity was touched.

Amen. How then can one believe He was torn asunder? I mean is His divinity not triune being He is God.

 

On 9/18/2024 at 6:09 PM, AdHoc said:

How you want to explain that is your choice, but overturning this by John's Baptism and the Holy Spirit descending on Him to stay is patently wrong. Here's why;

Our Lord Jesus was God from His conception. The intrinsic nature of God was given at conception. The Holy Spirit He received at age 30 came UPON Him and "ABODE UPON" Him - not "IN" Him.. It was the same Holy Spirit but given outwardly for POWER FOR MINISTRY.

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

John needed to see God’s chosen One yet there was more that John could not see or understand. The Spirit of God fell not to change Christ’s being and He was not baptized for remission of sins, both occurrences were to  manifest Christ for all to see, the Jews required a sign. Faith is believing without seeing, the power was already in Him, the timing had to be right, He have the power to create the world before His baptism.
The seed of God that entered Mary was the Holy Spirit which was the divinity of Jesus, the Spirit never left Him, It was part of His being.

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 

Paul was referring to the express image of the ascended Christ he met on the road to Damascus. His image was far different than when he appeared to the disciples after resurrection. 

Jesus manifested flesh and bones in the natural realm and said He was not a spirit after resurrection because a spirit does not have flesh and bones yet now the ascended Christ is a Spirit, the same Spirit that appeared at Pentecost and the same Spirit that created before the world began.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 

The ascended Christ does not have a “spirit-body” He has a Spirit body yet it is a mystery because It is not manifest visibly to the natural man. God is a, big S, Spirit and tripartite thus it makes Him all powerful and above the spirit, small s, of man. 

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let US  make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 
Gen 1:27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The Father said let US make man in our image in verse 26 then the singular God is used in verse 27, thus the US reveals the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the singular tripartite God, in other words, the Son who is Christ, before creation was Spirit in the singular Spirit Body of God, not flesh, not bone, not human. 

Man was created in God’s image as tripartite.. body, soul and spirit not in the express image of God who now is Spirit, Spirit, and Spirit.

I will answer this section. I judge it to be the essence of your doctrine.

The first observation is that if the plain language of each scripture is taken, there is no verse you gave that our Lord changed His Body to spirit substance for His ascension. You must add conjecture. Something like this.

"Jesus took a human body. Jesus is God. God is a Spirit. Jesus body is spirit-substance".

But the reader will not what the plain wording says. Now I will give the reason why those verses that indicate some sort of metamorphosis. But first I will show the utter impossibility of an ascended Lord in spirit-form. It is this.

Matthew 12:40 says the Lord will spend 3 days in the heart of the earth. Ephesians 4:8-9 confirms this adding that our Lord FIRST Descended. When our Lord met Mary in John 20 he told her not to touch Him. The reason is the fulfillment of the Wave Offering. Christ, firstfruits of those that slept, belongs to the Lord of the Harvest, and firstfruits were first for the Father (Lev.23). But that night He commanded His disciples to handle Him. The permission to touch him is because in John 20:17 Jesus told Mary that He HAD NOT ASCENDED YET and was about to do so. The events of that first night after Jesus was RAISED must be AFTER He ascended and returned - as He predicted in John 14. Thus, the statement in Luke 24 that he was flesh and bones was AFTER He ascended.

Hebrews confirms this in another way. Christ had to enter the Holy of Holies of the heavenly Tabernacle to present His blood to the Father. The disciples could not have received the Holy Spirit until this was done.

But there is still another proof of the Body of Jesus being physical, even today. It is this; Our BODIES make up His Body (1st Cor.6:15). This is doubly confirmed by Ephesians 5:30. While the Church is a "Spiritual House" it is a PHYSICAL BODY. This the reason that when it comes to building the Church in Matthew 16 the great obstacle is HADES. At the death of a saint, the Church loses members

But your verses that show Jesus as a "Spirit" deserve a comment. I find the best way of explaining how Jesus is God, Man and Spirit at once is shown in John 7:39;

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I have made the word "given" red because it does not appear in the original. The verse reads;

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

But in this form a difficulty arises. It reads then that the Holy Spirit was not yet in existence. The translators thought they could fix this by adding to scripture. Many students do this, but it was not necessary. It was not the Holy Spirit that was NOT YET, but "the Spirit WHICH THEY SHOULD RECEIVE". God's New Testament economy is not to replace the 613 laws of Moses with the 2,400 plus commands of the New Testament. God's "oikonomia" or "household management" is for Christ to have fulfilled every aspect of human life pleasing to God, then add it to Him in His divinity to make it part of Him, and the to dispense it to humans by living in their spirits. It is; "Christ IN YOU - the hope of glory".

So, as John 7:39 was spoken our Lord Jesus still needed one for event to make Him complete FOR THOSE HE WOULD DWELL IN. To complete the divine fulfillment of the prefect human life, Jesus still needed human death and human resurrection. These two human experiences were yet to be added to the Spirit THAT THE DISCIPLES WOULD RECEIVE on resurrection day (Jn.20:22). That is why the wording of 1st Corinthians 15:45 is "The Last Adam BECAME the Life-giving SPIRIT". It was not that the Holy Spirit needed to metamorph, but that a temporal human experience needed to become part of the divine Deity. This is beautifully show in Romans 8:1-2. The solution to the "body of this death" is not more Laws. neither is it more power in the flesh. The solution is to take Christ IN and then allow Him free reign to live out what He did in His human life.

The verses you have proffered are simply aspects of the Holy Spirit that were added or modified for God's dispensing of Christ to "conform us to the image of Christ" (Rom.8:29).

Lastly, the metamorphosis that Jesus underwent in Matthew 17 on the mount of Transfiguration was not physical body to spirit body. It was old body from Mary to resurrection body - the same as all living saints will experience at Christ's return (1st Cor.15:50-54). To be there as well, Moses' BODY (not some new spirit-body) needed to be fought for by Michael.

I think that I have presented enough facts to cast doubt on your present understanding. I would reconsider my arguments if I were you for the simple reason that your arguments are very close to those of Gnosticism. Although their teaching is varied, the spirit-substance of the MAN Jesus is one of them.

Here's my closing question with answer. When Israel see Christ burst through the clouds over Mount Olives, they mourn. Why? Because they see who they have PIERCED. That's 2,000 years after His ascension!