thoughts on the Anti-Christ

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Yeah. I tried to fit a book into a paragraph. Disregard. Let me try again;

"Anti-Christ" is an attempt to replace and simulate Christ. Many try it.

"The Beast" is ONE of the many. He is "given" to succeed.*

The Little horn of Daniel 7 is the Beast What clouds the issue s the ASSUMPTION that Rome collapses. In western thinking we attribute greatness to military prowess. But the Bible gives fame to the empire that can RULE. the issue at hand is man's RULE of the earth, sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). In Hebrews 3 and 4, God is angry because His people could not RULE Canaan for His REST, USA is another example. With the greatest military the world has seen, it could defeat its enemy in a week. But it is unable to rule its enemy for a year. Even the Ottomans could do better than this.

In Daniel 7, what is tricky is that the fourth Empire stood and seems to have two peaks of rule. But this is the case with Rome. They conquered militarily and then, as their empire waned, they changed from armor to priest's robes. Via the Roman Church they interfere in all matters political and financial. The second peak of the same power will be the Beast.

* At Jesus' trial Israel asked for Caesar as their king. According to Daniel 4 God puts kings in their office. The Beast must be "given" power by God. It is a test to see if Israel still want Caesar. They do.

Thank you very much... and this I certainly understand and agree with much of your thoughts. So, if I may, I would like to give you my interpretation of JUST Chapter 2 for I have found this to reveal the formal structure that God will use throughout the next 10 chapters to reveal His plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and all of mankind. This chapter establishes all the rules, guidlines, restrictions, boundaries, etc., where His prophecies will be placed. Every one  of His prophecies will be found in this chapter - except one. Further, every actor and event that is important TO HIS PLAN OF RESTORATION AND SALVATION will be found within these 4 kingdoms only. We are not to add or subtract from His Words. And the reason why Daniel has been impossible to understand is because of the breaking of this rule - everyone has attempted to match the actors and events within our history books (regardless of when they might have occurred) and link them to the meaning of the verses in Daniel. Daniel is not a history book but God will bring in ONLY those actors / kingdoms / events that can be found within our history books that "fit"within His plan. 

Chapter 2 gives us the following:

Dream sequence: God gives us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea. There will be hundreds and hundreds of actors and kingdoms / nations thoughout our history over the next 2600 years, but none of them matter. He will incorporate His prophecies within these 4 only - Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and Rome. That is it! (However, we will find that the 4th kingdom will be "divided" but there will still never be more than 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea.

Dream sequence: In addition to the 4 kingdoms, God will give us two and only two ACTIONS that will take place within this "dream sequence." The dream sequence is  the big picture of summary of His overall plan. The first action is found in 2:34 and this represents the Stone (Messiah at His first coming - everyone else places this at the same time as 2:35 but there is a 2000 year gap between His first and second coming.) The purpose of the Stone striking the symbolic feet of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome is to break apart the clay and the iron at the end of the feet only. It does not strike the toes, only the feet. The "clay" symbolically represents His people (the Jews) who are held captive within the Roman Empire. When He separates the clay from the iron (cross), He will mold those of His people (clay) into "pottery clay." These are those Jews who, afte the cross will go out into the world and preach the Good News. Those that are referred to as "ceramic clay," represent those Jews who continue to reject the Messiah and they will continue in their ways. 

The second action mentioned is in 2:35, and this represents the end of time harvest when the Messiah will return - this is truely the end of time. 

So, that is it! That is the summation of His plan found in the dream sequence in Chapter 2. But He is not done yet, because He will still give us a few very cryptic verses found in the "interpretation sequence" verses. These are found after the dream sequence verses, they are NOT chronological with the dream sequence verses, but instead, offer some important details that, when properly interpreted, will be found WITHIN THOSE dream sequence verses. These verses are found in 2:40 - 44. These verses only speak to the most important part of Daniel - the 4th kingdom. These all take place within this kingdom. Verse 2:45 speaks of the true end time event associated with 2:35.

So, within these "interpretation sequence" verses, God will reveal the result that will occur AFTER THE CROSS IN THE 4th kingdom period of both pagan and later papal Rome. And it will be this "divided" kingdom of papal Rome wqho will continue until the end of time when he will be destroyed without human hands. This is it... the most important points of His plan of restoration and salvation for mankind. Now, if this chapter is properly interpreted, then all other Hebrew chapters will follow right along and NOT deviate at all. God will reveal the exact same structure, same guidlines, restrictions, etc., but He will use different symbols to reveal additional characteristics and more details that will take place within these same 4 kingdoms.

Within 2:40-44, God will reveal the "potter clay," the "ceramic clay," the continuation of the iron (pagan Rome), the rise of His church (Jewish Christian), the removal of His people (pottery clay-  Jews) from His church, and the rise of the church (Gentile Christian)  that will replace His church.

Now, the rest of the Hebrew chapters will also be structured / presented as Chapter 2 is - there will be a "dream sequence" of verses (big picture), and then a series of "interpretations sequence" of verses (details of actors / events that must be placed WITHIN THOSE provided dream sequence verses. Thus, they are also not presented in a chronological manner.

 

The reason I have provided this is to lay the foundation or ground work for our (hopeful) discusson of this "little horn" character. Chapter 7 will indeed build off of Chapter 2 but if Chapter 2 is not properly interpreted, then the REST OF DANIEL will be misinterpreted where, as we find in MOST of "today's accepted interpretations," they are thrown some 2000 years into the future.

If you would like to continue along these lines, I would ask you to consider the above and ask any questions or provide any comments - pro or con for us to discuss before we might move on to the little horn in Chapter 7. And to minimize this discussion, it really is only necessary to discuss the 4th kingdom that comes after Greece - pagan Rome. That is where everything happens.

Look forward to hearing from you  ...

 

 

 

 

[AdHoc]

13 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you very much... and this I certainly understand and agree with much of your thoughts. So, if I may, I would like to give you my interpretation of JUST Chapter 2 for I have found this to reveal the formal structure that God will use throughout the next 10 chapters to reveal His plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and all of mankind. This chapter establishes all the rules, guidlines, restrictions, boundaries, etc., where His prophecies will be placed. Every one  of His prophecies will be found in this chapter - except one. Further, every actor and event that is important TO HIS PLAN OF RESTORATION AND SALVATION will be found within these 4 kingdoms only. We are not to add or subtract from His Words. And the reason why Daniel has been impossible to understand is because of the breaking of this rule - everyone has attempted to match the actors and events within our history books (regardless of when they might have occurred) and link them to the meaning of the verses in Daniel. Daniel is not a history book but God will bring in ONLY those actors / kingdoms / events that can be found within our history books that "fit"within His plan. 

Chapter 2 gives us the following:

Dream sequence: God gives us the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea. There will be hundreds and hundreds of actors and kingdoms / nations thoughout our history over the next 2600 years, but none of them matter. He will incorporate His prophecies within these 4 only - Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and Rome. That is it! (However, we will find that the 4th kingdom will be "divided" but there will still never be more than 4 kingdoms that come out of the sea.

Dream sequence: In addition to the 4 kingdoms, God will give us two and only two ACTIONS that will take place within this "dream sequence." The dream sequence is  the big picture of summary of His overall plan. The first action is found in 2:34 and this represents the Stone (Messiah at His first coming - everyone else places this at the same time as 2:35 but there is a 2000 year gap between His first and second coming.) The purpose of the Stone striking the symbolic feet of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome is to break apart the clay and the iron at the end of the feet only. It does not strike the toes, only the feet. The "clay" symbolically represents His people (the Jews) who are held captive within the Roman Empire. When He separates the clay from the iron (cross), He will mold those of His people (clay) into "pottery clay." These are those Jews who, afte the cross will go out into the world and preach the Good News. Those that are referred to as "ceramic clay," represent those Jews who continue to reject the Messiah and they will continue in their ways. 

The second action mentioned is in 2:35, and this represents the end of time harvest when the Messiah will return - this is truely the end of time. 

So, that is it! That is the summation of His plan found in the dream sequence in Chapter 2. But He is not done yet, because He will still give us a few very cryptic verses found in the "interpretation sequence" verses. These are found after the dream sequence verses, they are NOT chronological with the dream sequence verses, but instead, offer some important details that, when properly interpreted, will be found WITHIN THOSE dream sequence verses. These verses are found in 2:40 - 44. These verses only speak to the most important part of Daniel - the 4th kingdom. These all take place within this kingdom. Verse 2:45 speaks of the true end time event associated with 2:35.

So, within these "interpretation sequence" verses, God will reveal the result that will occur AFTER THE CROSS IN THE 4th kingdom period of both pagan and later papal Rome. And it will be this "divided" kingdom of papal Rome wqho will continue until the end of time when he will be destroyed without human hands. This is it... the most important points of His plan of restoration and salvation for mankind. Now, if this chapter is properly interpreted, then all other Hebrew chapters will follow right along and NOT deviate at all. God will reveal the exact same structure, same guidlines, restrictions, etc., but He will use different symbols to reveal additional characteristics and more details that will take place within these same 4 kingdoms.

Within 2:40-44, God will reveal the "potter clay," the "ceramic clay," the continuation of the iron (pagan Rome), the rise of His church (Jewish Christian), the removal of His people (pottery clay-  Jews) from His church, and the rise of the church (Gentile Christian)  that will replace His church.

Now, the rest of the Hebrew chapters will also be structured / presented as Chapter 2 is - there will be a "dream sequence" of verses (big picture), and then a series of "interpretations sequence" of verses (details of actors / events that must be placed WITHIN THOSE provided dream sequence verses. Thus, they are also not presented in a chronological manner.

 

The reason I have provided this is to lay the foundation or ground work for our (hopeful) discusson of this "little horn" character. Chapter 7 will indeed build off of Chapter 2 but if Chapter 2 is not properly interpreted, then the REST OF DANIEL will be misinterpreted where, as we find in MOST of "today's accepted interpretations," they are thrown some 2000 years into the future.

If you would like to continue along these lines, I would ask you to consider the above and ask any questions or provide any comments - pro or con for us to discuss before we might move on to the little horn in Chapter 7. And to minimize this discussion, it really is only necessary to discuss the 4th kingdom that comes after Greece - pagan Rome. That is where everything happens.

Look forward to hearing from you  ...

 

 

 

 

I am in full agreement that we should not add or subtract from God's Word. I also try to be very strict with 2nd Peter 1:20 which forbids private interpretation. You have made statements that could very well be correct, but i need to see the documentation that led to your interpretation. Here are some examples:

Quote

1. Chapter 2 for I have found this to reveal the formal structure that God will use throughout the next 10 chapters to reveal His plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and all of mankind.

I was under the impression that the dream was a prediction of of the removal of Gentile Government with a subtlety of destroying Governments that have already ceased. The four empires run consecutively. That would mean that Babylon is long gone by the time the little stone arrives. How can it be pulverized along with the others?

Next in conjunction with this dream is that the people mentioned cannot be Daniel's People since they (Daniel's People) will eventually reject the "Little Stone" and forfeit the Kingdom (Matt.21.43). Is not Chapter 2 about  an unnamed People? Dominion is given to the seed of Abraham "as the stars of heaven" while Canaan is an everlasting possession to seed "as the sand of the sea shore" (Gen.15 & 22).

I'll stop there in case I'm jumping the gun and you were going to explain this

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I am in full agreement that we should not add or subtract from God's Word. I also try to be very strict with 2nd Peter 1:20 which forbids private interpretation. You have made statements that could very well be correct, but i need to see the documentation that led to your interpretation. Here are some examples:

I was under the impression that the dream was a prediction of of the removal of Gentile Government with a subtlety of destroying Governments that have already ceased

I don’t see it that way. To me, God has selected these 4 Gentile kingdoms where He reveals the destruction of His people and His city and His plan to fully restore both over the period from 606 BC to 33/34 AD. And within that plan, He will also incorporate the arrival of His Messiah in the last week of the Chapter 9 prophecy. But because His people will reject and crucify Him, His plan will continue through the 4th kingdom until the end of time. The consequences of their decision / actions (after the cross) are given to us. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

. The four empires run consecutively.
 

Yes, I agree. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

That would mean that Babylon is long gone by the time the little stone arrives. How can it be pulverized along with the others?

Yes, I agree. When the Stone strikes the feet, it does not destroy / pulverize the image. It breaks apart the two components within th feet only- the clay from the iron. This takes place in the early part of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. 
 

So, the Stone (Messiah) did not come to destroy but to divide. Symbolically, those Jews who would accept Him as their Messiah would be freed to preach the Good News throughout the 4th kingdom. Those who would reject Him would continue in their Jewish ways and still await their coming Messiah. 

 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Next in conjunction with this dream is that the people mentioned cannot be Daniel's People since they (Daniel's People) will eventually reject the "Little Stone" and forfeit the Kingdom (Matt.21.43).
 

Those Jews that accept Jesus are referred to as “pottery clay.” They will preach the Good News and begin His earthly church. At the beginning, the church is entirely made up of Jews but will quickly grow to include millions of Gentiles / pagans throughout the Roman Empire. This will result in the Gentiles dominating this growing church and they will be effective in removing the Jews from this church. They will also bring in pagan practices, idols, and a military like hierarchical system to rule over this new church organization. This is reflected in 2:41. The Jews would “mingle” but not adhere…” meaning they would not accept the bringing in of the pagan practices to be mixed with the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. 
 

This powerful, growing church will have no less than 4 “Christian centers” through the 4th beast kingdom headed by powerful bishops (Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem). They would fight for dominance and Rome would win out. The bishop of Rome would succeed to the “top of the beast” and will become known as the papacy over papal Rome. By this time, pagan Rome had declined in power and would soon cease to be (7:11). Thus, this little horn (bishop of Rome / pope) would reign over this “divided” 4th kingdom (2:41) that would continue until His return. 
 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

Is not Chapter 2 about  an unnamed People?
 

Chapter 2 gives us the big picture of God’s plan of restoration for His people and His city from Babylon. But it reveals the things that will take place as a direct result of their rejection of their Messiah. God will now send His “potter’s clay” out to the Gentiles to preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

 

Dominion is given to the seed of Abraham "as the stars of heaven" while Canaan is an everlasting possession to seed "as the sand of the sea shore" (Gen.15 & 22).

Yes. But when He sent His Messiah to His people, they rejected Him. They will ALWAYS be His chosen people but they are to be “made desolate” to their God as punishment for rejecting Him for the next 2000 years (until the time of the Gentiles is complete). 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I'll stop there in case I'm jumping the gun and you were going to explain this

I hope this might clear up a little… but please continue to ask questions about Chapter 2. It is not a vision that is focused on the 4 kingdoms, it is a vision that reveals His plan to restore His people and His city (and the coming Messiah) through these 4 kingdoms. They are simply the structure where all of His prophecies will take place. They are the 4 kingdom “stage” where His actors (Jews) will play in with the storyline being God’s plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind.

[AdHoc]

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t see it that way. To me, God has selected these 4 Gentile kingdoms where He reveals the destruction of His people and His city and His plan to fully restore both over the period from 606 BC to 33/34 AD. And within that plan, He will also incorporate the arrival of His Messiah in the last week of the Chapter 9 prophecy. But because His people will reject and crucify Him, His plan will continue through the 4th kingdom until the end of time. The consequences of their decision / actions (after the cross) are given to us. 

I think we must take time to define "His People". I'm the first to admit that until the Apostles went to Samaria we could say that Judah were "His People" since He claims to be their King. But God declared them "Lo-ammi" and only changes this status in their final recovery at the beginning of the Millennium. So when you say "His People" crucify Him and reject His disciples, we must be talking about Israel. They never preached the gospel. They opposed it vehemently - and still do.

Although a lot happened in those intervening years, I need you to show me God's plan being fulfilled with "Daniel's People". It seems to me that God put Israel on hold for the next 2,400 years. Acts 15:14-16 seems to me to say that once David's House (Israel's unified Monarchy) was in ruins, God was working through and by Gentiles.

If I seem pedantic, please forgive me. I understand Daniel to deal with the Kingdom and not the gospel. Even Messiah is cut off after a mere 3.5 Years of ministry and His disciples are no match for the Gentile governments. If anything, God was, and is, building His Church in this age, but not only is the Church not revealed to Daniel, but its effect is not found in even the 70 sevens. What is found there is Israel's restoration as a Nation.

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Yes, I agree. When the Stone strikes the feet, it does not destroy / pulverize the image. It breaks apart the two components within th feet only- the clay from the iron. This takes place in the early part of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome. 
 

So, the Stone (Messiah) did not come to destroy but to divide. Symbolically, those Jews who would accept Him as their Messiah would be freed to preach the Good News throughout the 4th kingdom. Those who would reject Him would continue in their Jewish ways and still await their coming Messiah. 

Daniel 2:34 has the stone attacking the feet, but verse 35 has it reducing the whole image to powder. Compare your statement (my bold) with the verses posted below.

 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. (Da.2:33–35)

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

hose Jews that accept Jesus are referred to as “pottery clay.” They will preach the Good News and begin His earthly church. At the beginning, the church is entirely made up of Jews but will quickly grow to include millions of Gentiles / pagans throughout the Roman Empire. This will result in the Gentiles dominating this growing church and they will be effective in removing the Jews from this church. They will also bring in pagan practices, idols, and a military like hierarchical system to rule over this new church organization. This is reflected in 2:41. The Jews would “mingle” but not adhere…” meaning they would not accept the bringing in of the pagan practices to be mixed with the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. 
 

This powerful, growing church will have no less than 4 “Christian centers” through the 4th beast kingdom headed by powerful bishops (Rome, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem). They would fight for dominance and Rome would win out. The bishop of Rome would succeed to the “top of the beast” and will become known as the papacy over papal Rome. By this time, pagan Rome had declined in power and would soon cease to be (7:11). Thus, this little horn (bishop of Rome / pope) would reign over this “divided” 4th kingdom (2:41) that would continue until His return. 

I would like to say that in many points we are on the same page. By showing our differences I hope not to make out a total divergence. I would hate to have this constructive dialog be termed "negative". I will only address your two leading thoughts here. 1. The "pottery clay" and 2. the four centers. Again, you have not shown the source of your belief.

1. My view is that a dream of four Gentile Kingdoms is to do with Government. The elements that represent them show the different TYPES of Government and God's appreciation of them. Gold is Autocracy. Even though Nebuchadnezzar was an evil king, God equates his TYPE of Government - Autocracy - with Gold. Gold in parable usually shows the things of God, and God's perfect government is a Theocratic Autocracy. Persia, which followed, had the nobles making the Laws and the king enforcing them - an Aristocracy. God deemed this form inferior and accorded it silver. Military was brass and the clay and iron designated Democracy.

We must be consistent in our interpretation. If Gold is Monarchy, then clay is Democracy. Giving it your meaning is to deviate. I'm not against deviating, but you must show how and why.

2. Historically, both Greece and Rome were divided. But scripture gives a "Mother" to God's Kingdom (New Jerusalem) and a Whore Mother to Satan's kingdom - Mystery Babylon the Great. The location is "upon seven hills" (Rev.17:8-9). There is only one city that is BOTH a Capital of a world Empire and on seven hills - Rome. Added to this, the kings that ruled at John's time were Romans. So, from beginning of John's prophecy to the end, which culminated in Christ pulverizing the armies of the Nations (as Daniel predicted), the Gentiles' Leading City and world empire, is Rome.

Thus, the clay and iron is Democracy, and the City THROUGHOUT is Rome.

Thank you for your consideration, and I appreciate your thoughtful study of Daniel - even if we disgaree.

Go well.

[BornAgain490]

End times antichrist will not practice sound doctrine. (1 John 2:18-19).  He will deny that Jesus is the Christ. (v.22).  He will deny the Father and the Son. (v.23).  He is a child of the devil and walks in the way of Cain. (vv.8, 10, 12).  He will not be able to confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (4:3), because he does not believe on the Son of God (5:10).  He will be revealed before the Lord's return (2 Thess. 2:1-3), and before the great apostasy (v.3).  He will oppose God and exalt himself above all that is called God. (v.4).  Many believers will fall away so that antichrist will sit in their hearts (v.4), showing himself that he is God. (v.4). He will come out of that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18), the city tht sits on seven hills (Rev. 17:9), in which is found the blood of prophets and of saints (18:24; Matt. 23:29, 37).  And he will be linked to the global pharmaceutical complex, the ones who've deceived the nations.  (Rev. 18:23).

 

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I think we must take time to define "His People". I'm the first to admit that until the Apostles went to Samaria we could say that Judah were "His People" since He claims to be their King.
 

Thanks for your thoughts! Yes, Israel was and will always be “His chosen people.” Because of their rejection of Him, He has “made them desolate” to Him. This will continue until He decides the “time of the Gentiles” is over. At that time (soon in my opinion), He will remove the blindness from their eyes and restore His relationship with them once again. They still have one important mission to complete for Him. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

But God declared them "Lo-ammi" and only changes this status in their final recovery at the beginning of the Millennium. So when you say "His People" crucify Him and reject His disciples, we must be talking about Israel. They never preached the gospel. They opposed it vehemently - and still do.

Agree. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Although a lot happened in those intervening years, I need you to show me God's plan being fulfilled with "Daniel's People".

 

Not sure I understand this point. It was Jesus who fulfilled His God given mission from His Father during His 3.5 year ministry. He fulfilled all of 9:24. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It seems to me that God put Israel on hold for the next 2,400 years.
 

Agree. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Acts 15:14-16 seems to me to say that once David's House (Israel's unified Monarchy) was in ruins, God was working through and by Gentiles.

I don’t know if I would put it that way. After the cross, it would be His apostles and other Jews who were chosen by God (pottery clay) to go out and preach the Good News. They went to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Prior to the cross? Israel did not go and preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the Gentiles, but kept Him to themselves. It would still be through “the Jews” the Gentiles would be saved - through their command by Jesus to go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If I seem pedantic, please forgive me. I understand Daniel to deal with the Kingdom and not the gospel.

I think we might be saying or thinking along the same lines— not sure because I would need a little more from you on this comment. Daniel is dealing with the Kingdom of God. He is revealing His plan of salvation for mankind through this storyline within Daniel. 
 

God had given Israel the mission to teach / reveal the One true God to the world. They were to learn and obey His commands and worship Him only. Not only did they disobey Him and turn to idolatry, but they failed in their priestly mission to evangelize the Gentiles. They were punished, and because they refused to repent, God brought the Babylonians to completely destroy everything and murder many. They took many captive for a 70 year punishment. But God would use this for good and design a plan to completely restore His people and His city as it was before the destruction. 
 

Everything was restored as He decreed in the 70 weeks of years prophecy. But, in the last week of the prophecy, His people would reject Him. But within His plan of restoration, He would ensure and choose those Jews would accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) from those that would reject Him (ceramic clay), so they would preach the Gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles. The Gospel is bringing His Kingdom to the world - the only way to salvation. 
 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Even Messiah is cut off after a mere 3.5 Years of ministry and His disciples are no match for the Gentile governments.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I believe it might be better to say the Gentile kingdom, at that time it was the most powerful kingdom to come upon the earth, was no match for God.  Despite the small number of Jews that were sent out into a world dominated by paganism, Roman secularism, and the Jewish leadership desperately trying to kill them for preaching Jesus the Messiah, His church would succeed. Everyone was against them for the first 300 years after the Cross, and this was a very violent type of aggression against them. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

If anything, God was, and is, building His Church in this age, but not only is the Church not revealed to Daniel, but its effect is not found in even the 70 sevens.
 

I have to strongly disagree here. His church has been “set up” at the cross. His apostles were not commanded to go out and build a bunch of new buildings, establish a formal church hierarchy, etc., and develop what we commonly refer to today as the “church.” His “church” is every individual who accepts He our Lord and Savior. They went out into the world to preach “the Gospel.” His church will be found within the heart of each individual as we are responsible for our own salvation. In 2:44, God tells us “no longer will the “kingdom” be left to another people. Meaning, the Jews were given the mission to preach salvation through the One true  God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They refused to go out into the Gentiles but kept Him for themselves. Now, God would establish a better covenant- one that would see His Holy Spirit willing and able to preach His Word to every individual should they choose to. Now, unlike the RCC who declares their own way to salvation, every person has the opportunity to be saved. He would no longer allow any people, group or “church organization” to have the ability to decide if they will be saved or not. No more of man’s “fences” or requirements they developed to determine who will be saved and / or how or if they will be saved. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

What is found there is Israel's restoration as a Nation.

True, only God could restore a nation after 2000 years. And, of course, He has a very special purpose for His people to complete before His return. First the physical, then the spiritual!

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Daniel 2:34 has the stone attacking the feet, but verse 35 has it reducing the whole image to powder.

Yes. EVERYONE has declared that both 2:34 and 2:35 take place at the same time- both are end time events. However, during my study of Daniel it was impossible to interpret the most important verses in the Hebrew chapters under this interpretation. 
 

The Stone represents the Messiah at His first coming, not at the end of time. He came to fulfill 9:24 and “set up” His kingdom. The Jews failed to preach the One true God to the world, consequently, God would design a plan to offer salvation to ALL peoples. Now, anyone who accepts Jesus and the cross would be saved. The Jews would no longer be the “gatekeepers.” For this to happen, He would symbolically break apart the clay (His people) from the iron (pagan Rome). God would then determine and select those pieces of clay He would use that would preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus to the world (Jeremiah 18:1-6). The Jews expected the Messiah would come around the time He did, but they were expecting Him to destroy the Romans and set up His Kingdom on the earth. Instead, God would symbolically break into pieces the clay from the iron and then choose those of His people He would mold. This was His plan to save ANY of His creation that would accept Jesus as their Messiah. Now, salvation is available for ALL and He did not have to fire a shot! He did not come to destroy but to divide!

Now, the “time of the Gentiles” would begin and as punishment for rejecting their Messiah, God would make Himself “desolate” to His people. 
 

Verse 2:35 is truly an end time event. And it is why within 2:35 we see the parable of the harvest and the threshing floor. There is 2000 years between 2:34 and 2:35. The Gospel will be preached for 2000 years, then, the end. 

The verses in 2:41-44 describe what will take place AFTER the cross (after 2:34). His chosen people (pottery clay) will start His church. It will mix with the iron (pagan Rome). But you will notice the 4th beast kingdom will be identified as being “partly clay and partly iron,” IN THAT ORDER. Before the cross (2:34) the 4th kingdom was identified as “partly iron and partly clay,” IN THAT ORDER. Meaning, His church would eventually have more “clay than iron.” The church would have taken superiority over pagan Rome. And that is exactly what happened at the time of Constantine. 
 

However, within these same verses, we find the Jews who accepted Jesus (seed of men) would “mingle” with this new church but would not “adhere” to it. This also occurred when the “Christian church” would be successful in removing any sign of its Jewish roots, and remove all Jews from the church. Also, those Jews would not adhere to the church because the church would bring in many pagan practices that corrupted His teachings. 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Compare your statement (my bold) with the verses posted below.

 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. (Da.2:33–35)

I would like to say that in many points we are on the same page. By showing our differences I hope not to make out a total divergence. I would hate to have this constructive dialog be termed "negative".
 

I don’t believe this at all. Different interpretations does not constitute “negative.” I can understand how different these (and so many more than build off of them in the latter Hebrew chapters) are or will be received. They depart from “today’s accepted interpretations,” whether the “accepted interpretations” are of a “preterist or futurist” view. And this is exact why I began my study on Daniel- the scholars, academics, theologians who have given us “today’s accepted interpretations,” are quite far apart in their interpretations. Absolutely no consensus among them. And after years of study, it was found their “approach” was terribly wrong. Daniel is not a history book where we attempt to match the actors and events within OUR HISTORY BOOKS to those we believe are in the verses of Daniel. If we look for how these verses speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of restoration and salvation THROUGH these 4 kingdoms, we will find a very different set of interpretations. Daniel is about our coming Messiah in the last week of the Chapter 9 prophecy and His plan of salvation for all of mankind. 

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I will only address your two leading thoughts here. 1. The "pottery clay" and 2. the four centers. Again, you have not shown the source of your belief.

 

I am sure you are well aware just how much God uses symbolism and metaphors, parables, etc., to convey His message. I have indeed provided the source of these interpretations. Verses 2:33 to 2:45 are given. These are used to unpack their meaning. And, they are indeed supported by what literally took place within the 4th kingdom period when the Messiah arrived, AND after the cross when He”set up” His church. 
 

In the other hand, you have idenythe “clay” as being “democracy.” Further, if I read it correctly, you too have placed these interpretations in the end times as opposed to the time of the Messiah. 
 

So, I believe we are both using the same verses in Chapter 2 but interpreting them quite differently. I really don’t think God is writing about what form of government that man will design at the end times. 

 

Remember, He purposely has given us the “structure” of the 4 kingdoms where He will present His plan of salvation in. He has selected these 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea for a reason. He wants us to concentrate and focus our efforts on interpreting His prophetic verses WITHIN these 4 kingdoms- these are His guidelines and restrictions to keep our interpreting them. Almost all of Daniel covers from 606 BC (time of exile) to the cross (3.5 years before the end of the prophecy) and then He gives us the consequences of the cross - the establishment of His church through the preaching of the Good News (by the potter clay) to the appropriation of His church by the little horn (papacy). 
 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

1. My view is that a dream of four Gentile Kingdoms is to do with Government. The elements that represent them show the different TYPES of Government and God's appreciation of them. Gold is Autocracy. Even though Nebuchadnezzar was an evil king, God equates his TYPE of Government - Autocracy - with Gold. Gold in parable usually shows the things of God, and God's perfect government is a Theocratic Autocracy. Persia, which followed, had the nobles making the Laws and the king enforcing them - an Aristocracy. God deemed this form inferior and accorded it silver. Military was brass and the clay and iron designated Democracy.

We must be consistent in our interpretation. If Gold is Monarchy, then clay is Democracy. Giving it your meaning is to deviate. I'm not against deviating, but you must show how and why.

I agree with your comment on consistency. But once again, the focus should not be on the 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are WHERE AND WHEN His prophecies will take place. 
 
He establishes the type of metals and body parts of a man to ensure we recognize that each kings is separate and unique. The actors and events within each kingdom stay within that particular kingdom. There is no “bleeding” between the kingdoms. Each kingdom will be given a specific mission to fulfill as they relate to His people. The metals do provide us with the identification of each kingdom. The specific body parts provide us with an understanding of their God given mission. But they are not the story! 
 

These verses are not about end times or man’s choices of secular governments. It is all about the coming of the Messiah (first coming) and His plan of salvation for mankind. 

 

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

2. Historically, both Greece and Rome were divided. But scripture gives a "Mother" to God's Kingdom (New Jerusalem) and a Whore Mother to Satan's kingdom - Mystery Babylon the Great. The location is "upon seven hills" (Rev.17:8-9). There is only one city that is BOTH a Capital of a world Empire and on seven hills - Rome. Added to this, the kings that ruled at John's time were Romans. So, from beginning of John's prophecy to the end, which culminated in Christ pulverizing the armies of the Nations (as Daniel predicted), the Gentiles' Leading City and world empire, is Rome.

Thus, the clay and iron is Democracy, and the City THROUGHOUT is Rome.

Thank you for your consideration, and I appreciate your thoughtful study of Daniel - even if we disgaree.

Go well.

You do not have to accept my interpretations! But I would ask that you consist God is giving us His prophetic verses for His first coming and what He was given to fulfill by His Father at His first coming. Nothing is more important than the cross. 

Look forward to your tho! Best wishes.

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, BornAgain490 said:

End times antichrist will not practice sound doctrine. (1 John 2:18-19).  He will deny that Jesus is the Christ. (v.22).  He will deny the Father and the Son. (v.23).  He is a child of the devil and walks in the way of Cain. (vv.8, 10, 12).  He will not be able to confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (4:3), because he does not believe on the Son of God (5:10).  He will be revealed before the Lord's return (2 Thess. 2:1-3), and before the great apostasy (v.3).  He will oppose God and exalt himself above all that is called God. (v.4).  Many believers will fall away so that antichrist will sit in their hearts (v.4), showing himself that he is God. (v.4). He will come out of that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18), the city tht sits on seven hills (Rev. 17:9), in which is found the blood of prophets and of saints (18:24; Matt. 23:29, 37).  And he will be linked to the global pharmaceutical complex, the ones who've deceived the nations.  (Rev. 18:23).

 

I agree with you on so many of your comments!!!

But I would ask you to consider the following:

1) there is absolutely NO person as the “anti-Christ.” There is definitely the “spirit” of anti-Christ, but that term speaks to anyone preaching a different Gospel. 
 

However, Daniel is mostly speaking of the period up to the cross when He will be rejected by His people. He will establish His church after the cross. It will grow exponentially despite all the many groups / peoples trying to kill His followers. 
 

His church will become dominated by Gentiles and around the 4th to 5th century AD, it will become the official religion of the 4th kingdom beast (pagan Rome). 
 

Then, we see the decline of pagan Rome and the rise and succession of papal Rome. The Christian church, headed by the papacy (little horn) will come to power and continue as the 4th beast kingdom (the “divided” kingdom), until His return. It is this “little horn” who will appropriate His church and be guilty of all the things you have mentioned. He is the one in Daniel 7 and 8 who will speak pompous things against God, go against His people and His saints, change times and laws, claim to be God on earth, declare salvation comes only through the church (RCC)… on and on! 
 

God specifically identified this “evil” one in these chapters. He also identified his coming and succession after the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) was slain (7:11). There were only 4 kingdoms that were brought out of the sea in God’s metal man image, and papal Rome was not one of them. Papal Rome came out of pagan Rome - they were not of the 4, nor was the papacy given to come out of the 4. 
 

But God certainly knew what would happen within His church, and purposely had given us everything we needed to recognize the identity of this little horn. 
 
Could there possibly be ANYONE that comes upon the earth that has done more than this little horn AGAINST the kingdom of God? Satan had nothing on them!

Over the past 1500 years, they have murdered and tortured over 50 MILLION people (pagans and Christians) that did not follow and worship under the RCC teachings. They claim to represent God on earth, that the pope is equal to God, they can forgive sin, change His commands and worship idols. Declare salvation is only through keeping their sacraments, and salvation only through the RCC. Can ANYINE possibly come up with a person / group that is more “anti-Christ” than this church? What more do they have to do to meet the definition of an “anti-Christ”  spirit? The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 has been preaching a very different and murderous gospel- one that places them above God Himself. 
 

This is not a Catholic beating set of comments. These are simply mentioning what they have been practicing for over 1500 years. How many billions of people have followed their teachings that will not see the kingdom of God? They have followed a false god! 
 

 

[BornAgain490]

6 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I agree with you on so many of your comments!!!

But I would ask you to consider the following:

1) there is absolutely NO person as the “anti-Christ.” There is definitely the “spirit” of anti-Christ, but that term speaks to anyone preaching a different Gospel. 
 

However, Daniel is mostly speaking of the period up to the cross when He will be rejected by His people. He will establish His church after the cross. It will grow exponentially despite all the many groups / peoples trying to kill His followers. 
 

His church will become dominated by Gentiles and around the 4th to 5th century AD, it will become the official religion of the 4th kingdom beast (pagan Rome). 
 

Then, we see the decline of pagan Rome and the rise and succession of papal Rome. The Christian church, headed by the papacy (little horn) will come to power and continue as the 4th beast kingdom (the “divided” kingdom), until His return. It is this “little horn” who will appropriate His church and be guilty of all the things you have mentioned. He is the one in Daniel 7 and 8 who will speak pompous things against God, go against His people and His saints, change times and laws, claim to be God on earth, declare salvation comes only through the church (RCC)… on and on! 
 

God specifically identified this “evil” one in these chapters. He also identified his coming and succession after the 4th beast kingdom (pagan Rome) was slain (7:11). There were only 4 kingdoms that were brought out of the sea in God’s metal man image, and papal Rome was not one of them. Papal Rome came out of pagan Rome - they were not of the 4, nor was the papacy given to come out of the 4. 
 

But God certainly knew what would happen within His church, and purposely had given us everything we needed to recognize the identity of this little horn. 
 
Could there possibly be ANYONE that comes upon the earth that has done more than this little horn AGAINST the kingdom of God? Satan had nothing on them!

Over the past 1500 years, they have murdered and tortured over 50 MILLION people (pagans and Christians) that did not follow and worship under the RCC teachings. They claim to represent God on earth, that the pope is equal to God, they can forgive sin, change His commands and worship idols. Declare salvation is only through keeping their sacraments, and salvation only through the RCC. Can ANYINE possibly come up with a person / group that is more “anti-Christ” than this church? What more do they have to do to meet the definition of an “anti-Christ”  spirit? The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 has been preaching a very different and murderous gospel- one that places them above God Himself. 
 

This is not a Catholic beating set of comments. These are simply mentioning what they have been practicing for over 1500 years. How many billions of people have followed their teachings that will not see the kingdom of God? They have followed a false god! 
 

 

All the elements of antichrist must be present, don't you agree?  One element is that antichrist will deny that Jesus is Messiah and will deny that Messiah has come, and will deny the Father and the Son.  The RCC cannot be antichrist because it has always confessed Jesus as Messiah and has never denied the Father or that Messiah has come in the flesh. I agree that the leadership of the RCC is apostate, but so are many non-RCC pastors, as are all non-Christian religions.  Unless the RCC renounces Jesus as the Messiah and rejects the Father and the Son, we need to look at other possibilities. 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for your thoughts! Yes, Israel was and will always be “His chosen people.” Because of their rejection of Him, He has “made them desolate” to Him. This will continue until He decides the “time of the Gentiles” is over. At that time (soon in my opinion), He will remove the blindness from their eyes and restore His relationship with them once again. They still have one important mission to complete for Him. 

Agree. 

Not sure I understand this point. It was Jesus who fulfilled His God given mission from His Father during His 3.5 year ministry. He fulfilled all of 9:24. 

Agree. 

I don’t know if I would put it that way. After the cross, it would be His apostles and other Jews who were chosen by God (pottery clay) to go out and preach the Good News. They went to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Prior to the cross? Israel did not go and preach the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the Gentiles, but kept Him to themselves. It would still be through “the Jews” the Gentiles would be saved - through their command by Jesus to go out into the world preaching the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus. 

I think we might be saying or thinking along the same lines— not sure because I would need a little more from you on this comment. Daniel is dealing with the Kingdom of God. He is revealing His plan of salvation for mankind through this storyline within Daniel. 
 

God had given Israel the mission to teach / reveal the One true God to the world. They were to learn and obey His commands and worship Him only. Not only did they disobey Him and turn to idolatry, but they failed in their priestly mission to evangelize the Gentiles. They were punished, and because they refused to repent, God brought the Babylonians to completely destroy everything and murder many. They took many captive for a 70 year punishment. But God would use this for good and design a plan to completely restore His people and His city as it was before the destruction. 
 

Everything was restored as He decreed in the 70 weeks of years prophecy. But, in the last week of the prophecy, His people would reject Him. But within His plan of restoration, He would ensure and choose those Jews would accept Him as their Messiah (pottery clay) from those that would reject Him (ceramic clay), so they would preach the Gospel to both the Jews and the Gentiles. The Gospel is bringing His Kingdom to the world - the only way to salvation. 
 

I understand what you are saying, but I believe it might be better to say the Gentile kingdom, at that time it was the most powerful kingdom to come upon the earth, was no match for God.  Despite the small number of Jews that were sent out into a world dominated by paganism, Roman secularism, and the Jewish leadership desperately trying to kill them for preaching Jesus the Messiah, His church would succeed. Everyone was against them for the first 300 years after the Cross, and this was a very violent type of aggression against them. 

I have to strongly disagree here. His church has been “set up” at the cross. His apostles were not commanded to go out and build a bunch of new buildings, establish a formal church hierarchy, etc., and develop what we commonly refer to today as the “church.” His “church” is every individual who accepts He our Lord and Savior. They went out into the world to preach “the Gospel.” His church will be found within the heart of each individual as we are responsible for our own salvation. In 2:44, God tells us “no longer will the “kingdom” be left to another people. Meaning, the Jews were given the mission to preach salvation through the One true  God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They refused to go out into the Gentiles but kept Him for themselves. Now, God would establish a better covenant- one that would see His Holy Spirit willing and able to preach His Word to every individual should they choose to. Now, unlike the RCC who declares their own way to salvation, every person has the opportunity to be saved. He would no longer allow any people, group or “church organization” to have the ability to decide if they will be saved or not. No more of man’s “fences” or requirements they developed to determine who will be saved and / or how or if they will be saved. 

True, only God could restore a nation after 2000 years. And, of course, He has a very special purpose for His people to complete before His return. First the physical, then the spiritual!

Yes. EVERYONE has declared that both 2:34 and 2:35 take place at the same time- both are end time events. However, during my study of Daniel it was impossible to interpret the most important verses in the Hebrew chapters under this interpretation. 
 

The Stone represents the Messiah at His first coming, not at the end of time. He came to fulfill 9:24 and “set up” His kingdom. The Jews failed to preach the One true God to the world, consequently, God would design a plan to offer salvation to ALL peoples. Now, anyone who accepts Jesus and the cross would be saved. The Jews would no longer be the “gatekeepers.” For this to happen, He would symbolically break apart the clay (His people) from the iron (pagan Rome). God would then determine and select those pieces of clay He would use that would preach His Word and the Testimony of Jesus to the world (Jeremiah 18:1-6). The Jews expected the Messiah would come around the time He did, but they were expecting Him to destroy the Romans and set up His Kingdom on the earth. Instead, God would symbolically break into pieces the clay from the iron and then choose those of His people He would mold. This was His plan to save ANY of His creation that would accept Jesus as their Messiah. Now, salvation is available for ALL and He did not have to fire a shot! He did not come to destroy but to divide!

Now, the “time of the Gentiles” would begin and as punishment for rejecting their Messiah, God would make Himself “desolate” to His people. 
 

Verse 2:35 is truly an end time event. And it is why within 2:35 we see the parable of the harvest and the threshing floor. There is 2000 years between 2:34 and 2:35. The Gospel will be preached for 2000 years, then, the end. 

The verses in 2:41-44 describe what will take place AFTER the cross (after 2:34). His chosen people (pottery clay) will start His church. It will mix with the iron (pagan Rome). But you will notice the 4th beast kingdom will be identified as being “partly clay and partly iron,” IN THAT ORDER. Before the cross (2:34) the 4th kingdom was identified as “partly iron and partly clay,” IN THAT ORDER. Meaning, His church would eventually have more “clay than iron.” The church would have taken superiority over pagan Rome. And that is exactly what happened at the time of Constantine. 
 

However, within these same verses, we find the Jews who accepted Jesus (seed of men) would “mingle” with this new church but would not “adhere” to it. This also occurred when the “Christian church” would be successful in removing any sign of its Jewish roots, and remove all Jews from the church. Also, those Jews would not adhere to the church because the church would bring in many pagan practices that corrupted His teachings. 

I don’t believe this at all. Different interpretations does not constitute “negative.” I can understand how different these (and so many more than build off of them in the latter Hebrew chapters) are or will be received. They depart from “today’s accepted interpretations,” whether the “accepted interpretations” are of a “preterist or futurist” view. And this is exact why I began my study on Daniel- the scholars, academics, theologians who have given us “today’s accepted interpretations,” are quite far apart in their interpretations. Absolutely no consensus among them. And after years of study, it was found their “approach” was terribly wrong. Daniel is not a history book where we attempt to match the actors and events within OUR HISTORY BOOKS to those we believe are in the verses of Daniel. If we look for how these verses speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of restoration and salvation THROUGH these 4 kingdoms, we will find a very different set of interpretations. Daniel is about our coming Messiah in the last week of the Chapter 9 prophecy and His plan of salvation for all of mankind. 

 

I am sure you are well aware just how much God uses symbolism and metaphors, parables, etc., to convey His message. I have indeed provided the source of these interpretations. Verses 2:33 to 2:45 are given. These are used to unpack their meaning. And, they are indeed supported by what literally took place within the 4th kingdom period when the Messiah arrived, AND after the cross when He”set up” His church. 
 

In the other hand, you have idenythe “clay” as being “democracy.” Further, if I read it correctly, you too have placed these interpretations in the end times as opposed to the time of the Messiah. 
 

So, I believe we are both using the same verses in Chapter 2 but interpreting them quite differently. I really don’t think God is writing about what form of government that man will design at the end times. 

 

Remember, He purposely has given us the “structure” of the 4 kingdoms where He will present His plan of salvation in. He has selected these 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea for a reason. He wants us to concentrate and focus our efforts on interpreting His prophetic verses WITHIN these 4 kingdoms- these are His guidelines and restrictions to keep our interpreting them. Almost all of Daniel covers from 606 BC (time of exile) to the cross (3.5 years before the end of the prophecy) and then He gives us the consequences of the cross - the establishment of His church through the preaching of the Good News (by the potter clay) to the appropriation of His church by the little horn (papacy). 
 

I agree with your comment on consistency. But once again, the focus should not be on the 4 kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms are WHERE AND WHEN His prophecies will take place. 
 
He establishes the type of metals and body parts of a man to ensure we recognize that each kings is separate and unique. The actors and events within each kingdom stay within that particular kingdom. There is no “bleeding” between the kingdoms. Each kingdom will be given a specific mission to fulfill as they relate to His people. The metals do provide us with the identification of each kingdom. The specific body parts provide us with an understanding of their God given mission. But they are not the story! 
 

These verses are not about end times or man’s choices of secular governments. It is all about the coming of the Messiah (first coming) and His plan of salvation for mankind. 

 

You do not have to accept my interpretations! But I would ask that you consist God is giving us His prophetic verses for His first coming and what He was given to fulfill by His Father at His first coming. Nothing is more important than the cross. 

Look forward to your tho! Best wishes.

Thanks for your reply. You are right about expositors not agreeing. And I think I know why. Daniel pertains to "Your (Daniel's) People" and three things have occurred that hamper things.
1. The Book is sealed
2. Daniel's people are reaping the fruit of breaking the Law and won't admit it. For this God sends delusion
3. Daniel's people vehemently reject Messiah and, if possible, would murder Christians. God sends blindness

When God sends these restrictions they have an effect on all men - even the sincere. My understanding is that Daniel is written for "Daniel's People". Of course we study "ALL scripture", but just as the New Covenant is made with the two Houses of Israel and is a Covenant of God's Laws (Jer.31:31-33), so also is Daniel written for and about Jews (or Israel if you wish). Even the obvious "gap" in Chapter 9 is consistent with God not counting the years of foreign rule over Israel. In Luke 19:44 our Lord Jesus intimated that Israel could have known the time of messiah's visitation.

So will it be at the end. There is enough hint in Daniel to calculate the end - if you get the start right. But consider ... there is no prophecy for the Church. It is very instructive in seeking the mind of God, and for instruction in God's glory, but nothing pertains to the Church. If we are around on earth when the 1260 days are unleashed, we are appointed to wrath and we are doomed to unspeakable sorrow. If we are raptured away from the scene of the Great Tribulation, Daniel won't mean a thing.

Go well brother ... and may the Lord give you more light. WE all need it.

[Charlie744]

54 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

All the elements of antichrist must be present, don't you agree?  One element is that antichrist will deny that Jesus is Messiah and will deny that Messiah has come, and will deny the Father and the Son.  The RCC cannot be antichrist because it has always confessed Jesus as Messiah and has never denied the Father or that Messiah has come in the flesh. I agree that the leadership of the RCC is apostate, but so are many non-RCC pastors, as are all non-Christian religions.  Unless the RCC renounces Jesus as the Messiah and rejects the Father and the Son, we need to look at other possibilities. 

I do understand and agree with you. But the RCC is guilty of disobeying the first three commandments (and also changing the 4th). Meaning, they claim divinity- breaking the first, they worship idols- breaking the 2nd commandment, they take God name in vain, meaning they profess Jesus in name ONLY. They do not obey the teachings of Jesus. There are many other religious organizations that claim the name of Jesus…. But how many of them have done so AND corrupted the Gospel of Jesus? ABSOLUTELY NO other church has made the claim that their leader is divine and equal to God. 
 

I am not too familiar with the Mormons or the Jehovah Witnesses but I do believe these and many others have no problem claiming they are followers of Christ … 

Look at what they do and profess and teach … everything they do is contrary to what Jesus tells us to do.