This is well said....

[JoeCanada]

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1786739886017708032/vpS74RMP_x96.jpg

 

Chris

 

@5PointBaptist

 

Have you ever considered why the armies come against Jerusalem at Armageddon? I'm sure you have, but do you know why? Allow me to share a thought or 2...

 

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ***“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ***; and He will reign forever and ever.” — Revelation 11:15 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and ***have begun to reign***. — Revelation 11:17

 

Did you notice in the above passages we are told this is when Christ takes possession of His kingdom and begins to reign? More importantly, did you notice this occurs after the 7th trumpet which is prior to Armageddon and so called "2nd coming?" https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f914.svghttps://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f914.svghttps://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f914.svg

 

Now notice the immediate reaction of the world... And the nations were enraged... — Revelation 11:18 The nations are "enraged" as a result of Christ reigning. This "rage" is what leads to the great final battle, which I believe is what Psalm 2 is all about. Read it slowly and carefully....

 

Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!”

 

He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.” “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

 

‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’” Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! — Psalm 2:1-12

 

This "installment" of the King where He begins to "reign" is what leads to the nations "taking their stand" at Armageddon where they attempt to "tear their fetters apart."

 

for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. — Revelation 16:14

 

And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon. — Revelation 16:16

 

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. — Revelation 19:19

 

Most Christians see this battle of Armageddon one where the armies of the world gather to destroy Israel. I do not believe this to be the case. The armies aren't there to take out Israel, they're there at "Har-Magedon" in order to take Jerusalem where Christ is literally, physically reigning (likely the initial stages in establishing His kingdom). They're there because Jesus is there.

 

Think about it. How can the nations be in an "uproar" over the reigning of Jesus unless He is physically there reigning? If this is just some symbolic or proxy reigning, the world wouldn't even be aware of it. Their knowledge of and reaction to His reigning is evidence in itself that Jesus is physically on earth at this time.

 

Christ then leaves, grabs His "army" (angels, not believers. Believers don't descend until chapter 21), rides in on a white horse and "shatters them like earthenware."

 

We have been missing the obvious for so long. This is what happens when we fail to understand that Christ's 2nd coming begins with the rapture (after the 6th seal), not with Armageddon. Christ is already here, reigning from Jerusalem.

[Diaste]

I hate to base a whole interpretation on a verb form but many times it's a key.

In this case "ōrgisthēsan" is an aorist. The aorist doesn't carry tense or duration, it's an 'is', or an 'exists'. 

In some reading about the Greek aorist, a linguist said the aorist is like taking a photo of a parade while flying overhead. We have no sense when it started or the duration, just that it exists.

So in that way the rage of the nations in Rev 11:18 doesn't show a proximal cause. 

My understanding is the nations are just angry, in a state of angry existence, all the time. 

Jesus is coming because it's the right time and one of the conditions of the nations is the unreasonable anger of the nations when He returns. imo.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/30/2024 at 10:39 AM, JoeCanada said:

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1786739886017708032/vpS74RMP_x96.jpg

 

Chris

 

@5PointBaptist

 

Have you ever considered why the armies come against Jerusalem at Armageddon? I'm sure you have, but do you know why? Allow me to share a thought or 2...

 

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ***“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ***; and He will reign forever and ever.” — Revelation 11:15 saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and ***have begun to reign***. — Revelation 11:17

 

Did you notice in the above passages we are told this is when Christ takes possession of His kingdom and begins to reign? More importantly, did you notice this occurs after the 7th trumpet which is prior to Armageddon and so called "2nd coming?" https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f914.svghttps://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f914.svghttps://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f914.svg

 

Now notice the immediate reaction of the world... And the nations were enraged... — Revelation 11:18 The nations are "enraged" as a result of Christ reigning. This "rage" is what leads to the great final battle, which I believe is what Psalm 2 is all about. Read it slowly and carefully....

 

Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!”

 

He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.” “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

 

‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’” Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! — Psalm 2:1-12

 

This "installment" of the King where He begins to "reign" is what leads to the nations "taking their stand" at Armageddon where they attempt to "tear their fetters apart."

 

for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. — Revelation 16:14

 

And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon. — Revelation 16:16

 

And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. — Revelation 19:19

 

Most Christians see this battle of Armageddon one where the armies of the world gather to destroy Israel. I do not believe this to be the case. The armies aren't there to take out Israel, they're there at "Har-Magedon" in order to take Jerusalem where Christ is literally, physically reigning (likely the initial stages in establishing His kingdom). They're there because Jesus is there.

 

Think about it. How can the nations be in an "uproar" over the reigning of Jesus unless He is physically there reigning? If this is just some symbolic or proxy reigning, the world wouldn't even be aware of it. Their knowledge of and reaction to His reigning is evidence in itself that Jesus is physically on earth at this time.

 

Christ then leaves, grabs His "army" (angels, not believers. Believers don't descend until chapter 21), rides in on a white horse and "shatters them like earthenware."

 

We have been missing the obvious for so long. This is what happens when we fail to understand that Christ's 2nd coming begins with the rapture (after the 6th seal), not with Armageddon. Christ is already here, reigning from Jerusalem.

 

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

I hate to base a whole interpretation on a verb form but many times it's a key.

In this case "ōrgisthēsan" is an aorist. The aorist doesn't carry tense or duration, it's an 'is', or an 'exists'. 

In some reading about the Greek aorist, a linguist said the aorist is like taking a photo of a parade while flying overhead. We have no sense when it started or the duration, just that it exists.

So in that way the rage of the nations in Rev 11:18 doesn't show a proximal cause. 

My understanding is the nations are just angry, in a state of angry existence, all the time. 

Jesus is coming because it's the right time and one of the conditions of the nations is the unreasonable anger of the nations when He returns. imo.

Shalom, gentlemen, both @JoeCanada and @Diaste.

It also helps to keep in mind what is meant by "the Christ" or "the Messiah." He is the One "Anointed" to be the King of Israel, who will also annex the nations of the world.

The reason why the "nations are angry" is that this is a QUOTE from Psalm 2:

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (Hebrew: יְהוָה = the Name of God), and against his anointed (Hebrew: מְשִׁיחוֹ = mshiychow = "His Messiah"), [saying],

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord (Hebrew: אֲדֹנָי = 'Adonaay = "my-Founder") shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set MY king upon MY holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD (Hebrew: יְהוָה = the name of God) hath said unto me,

"'"Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling! 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him!"

When people suggest that the Millennium will be a "time of peace," it's true ... FOR HIS OWN NATION! But, it will ONLY be true for those who accept Him as their King, as well! Many will NOT want Him to be their King - their Emperor - but they will not find it easy to resist Him! Indeed, Paul said, speaking about THREE significant resurrections,

1 Corinthians 15:21-25 (KJV)

21 For since by [a] man (Adam) [came] death, by [a] man (Yeeshuwa`) [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (Greek: ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ = "en too Christoo" = "in the Messiah") shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits (singular); (in the First Century, 30 A.D.)
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (in the near future)
24 (2) Then (Greek: εἶτα = eita = "afterward") [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN HE SHALL HAVE PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. (after the Millennium, the FIRST 1,000 years of His reign)

25 For he must reign, till HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.

Some (like Dr. David Jeremiah) suggest that He will do this "through love and compassion"; but He will also WIELD "THE SWORD that proceeds out of His mouth!"

This is what will win the battle at Har-Megiddown (Hebrew: הַר  - מְגִדּוֹן  Greek: Ἁρμαγεδδών = Harmageddoon), the "Hill at Megiddo," southeast of Haifa!