Should Every Christian Strive To Follow Apostolic Example, or is Doctrine Enough?

[tatwo]

@Mr. M...Greetings perhaps I'll have a go at this?

The title of the forum…“Should Every Christian Strive to Follow Apostolic Example, or is Doctrine Enough?”…is an interesting way to present this matter. I am reading you here Mr. M…as asking if one is to live like an “apostle” or to simply follow the “apostle’s doctrine” as a lifestyle…it is from here that I will join the discussion…if I have misinterpreted you please feel free to correct me.

First off…are there still “apostles?” From my considerable experience in the “evangelical church”…not many believe that there are apostles today…and they believe this for a myriad of reasons. Where are you with this Mr. M?

Next is the issue of the “apostle’s doctrine”…if one actually understands the “apostle’s doctrine” as reported in the scriptural text…they would invariably come to the conclusion that the institutional structure known as “church” in any denominational flavor stands in stark contrast to the apostles doctrine. Where do you stand with this Mr. M?

It seems to me…that for there to be constructive conversation or debate on this subject matter…we would have to see if we can come to an agreement on the basis for these matters as presented in the Scriptures?

I do have a few additional comments on your post…

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

Hopefully all Christians follow the apostolic teachings of the New Testament.

Umm…not likely…this is according to the prophetic Scripture and also my experience…the institution actually opposes apostolic teaching…and remember “great” is the falling away.

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

Adhering to teaching is one thing, imitating the life of an apostle is another thing altogether.

I can accept the first statement here Mr. M…however to “imitate” the life of an apostle…sounds like the description of a “false apostle.” I say this because scripturally speaking and you know this...the apostles were called and anointed for that role or function in the Kingdom of God by the Holy Spirit.

If your referencing Paul’s statement in 1^st Corinthians 11:1…“Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.” I have always felt that would have been better presented as 1^st Corinthians 10:34 rather than 1^st Corinthians 11:1. The separation right there seems awkward because of Paul’s explanation in 1^st Corinthians 10:23-33 where he is laying out what amounts to his own behavior and finishes it off with…“Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.”

I do not see Paul as telling those who are not apostles to act like apostles and he speaks to this elsewhere in reference to each person having a unique call of their own.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

Must every Christian "labor and toil night and day"?

Referencing 1^st Thessalonians 2:9 and 3:8…as apostles? No not everyone…these seem to be a reminder from Paul to the Thessalonians of “his behavior and lifestyle” when among them as an “apostolic father” highlighting an example for how we are to live among the family of God.

In reference to each ones divine call? Yes I would think so…after the example in which Paul carried himself.

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

This is what Christ meant when He said "Many are called, few are chosen".

Perhaps Mr. M…perhaps…this…"Many are called, few are chosen"…is a complex discussion due to the human reason that has been applied to it for generations…I may see it differently than you.

As the argument goes typically…it would seem that to some there is the “call” of God to come out of the darkness into His salvation and then…there is the unique reconciliation to the predestined “purpose or call” as the particular part of the Body in which one was divinely intended. Are they the same “call?” Of course…I have seen the two sides of this debate…some say it is some say it is not…do most even consider it?

Haven’t you seen for yourself that there are those who you know are “called by God” but do not obey Him in their lives by living according to “His will in their calling”…contrasted with those “who are living out His will for them in their call” as a “living sacrifice…acceptable to God?”

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

This does not mean that the called are not saved, they are not chosen for full time ministry, as were the apostles.

It seems to me that the concept of…“full time ministry”…has its roots in the institution in the same way the church divides the “pastoral leadership” from the “congregation”…the two caste system. The clergy/laity scenario...which is a classic misinterpretation of the words themselves.

In regards to those who are in the “Body of Christ”…the “call”…is likely a reference to a “specific and unique role, function, or part” in...the Body of Christ. Everyone who is in the Body of Christ has a unique call…which is to become their lifestyle…perhaps then fulfilling the concept of “full time ministry.”

I say this simply because in the Body of Christ…we are all called to a lifestyle defined as a “living sacrifice acceptable to God”…which is to “do the will of God and accomplish His works…something the institution largely has lost sight of. Paul said it like this…“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Emphasis mine.

It would seem that those who are “called…are called” according to His predestined purpose…and that in this call they are to spiritually grow and mature in Christ’s likeness as they are conformed unto maturity…in the image of the Lord Yahshua Himself…in their peculiar call.

It is in this that the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

Many disciples He addressed turned away. The chosen apostles remained faithful.

True…and I am sure there were more than just the apostles…wouldn’t you think?

On 10/31/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mr. M said:

here is a false teaching that everyone who is saved is also chosen and one of God's Elect. (Chosen=Elect). This simply does not hold up under the full examination of the apostolic doctrine.

So you are advocating a doctrine…Mr. M…that you are defining as…the “called” can be or are “saved”…but this does not mean they are “chosen” or one of God’s elect…as you stated it?

In terms of the “salvation” experience and subsequent process…where does this leave the “called that are saved but not chosen” in your opinion?

Tatwo...:)

Edited November 2, 2024 by tatwo

[missmuffet]

On 10/31/2024 at 10:37 AM, Mr. M said:

2 Thessalonians 3:

6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother

who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. 

7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us, for we were not disorderly among you; 

8 nor did we eat anyone’s bread free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day,

that we might not be a burden to any of you, 

9 not because we do not have authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us.

 

Hopefully all Christians follow the apostolic teachings of the New Testament.

Adhering to teaching is one thing, imitating the life of an apostle is another thing altogether.

Must every Christian "labor and toil night and day"?

This is what Christ meant when He said "Many are called, few are chosen".

This does not mean that the called are not saved, they are not chosen for full time ministry, as were the apostles. Many disciples He addressed turned away. The chosen apostles remained faithful. There is a false teaching that everyone who is saved is also chosen and one of God's Elect. (Chosen=Elect). This simply does not hold up under the full examination of the apostolic doctrine.

Doctrine

2 Timothy 3:16

 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for ^[a]instruction in righteousness,

1 Timothy 4:16

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

 

[steve morrow]

AN  APOSTLES  DOCTRINE 

 

1 CORINTHIANS 15:9  for I am the least of the apostles that am not meet to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of  GOD

1 TIMOTHY 2:7  whereunto I am ordained a preacher and an apostle I speak the truth in  CHRIST  and lie not a teacher of the gentiles in faith and verity

2 TIMOTHY 1:1  Paul an apostle of  JESUS  CHRIST  by the will of  GOD  according to the promise of life which is in  CHRIST  JESUS 

 

1 CORINTHIANS 11:1  be you followers of me even as I also am of  CHRIST 

--11:2--  now I praise you brethren that you remember me in all things and keep the ordinances as I delivered them to you 

--11:3--  but I would have you know that the head of every man is  CHRIST  and the head of the woman is the man and the head of  CHRIST  IS  GOD

 

2 TIMOTHY 1:8  be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our  LORD  nor of me  HIS  prisoner but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of  GOD

2 TIMOTHY 1:9  who hath saved us  ---and called us with an holy calling---  not according to our works but according to  HIS  own purpose  --and grace--  which was given us in  CHRIST  JESUS  before the world began 

 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:13  but we are bound to give thanks always to  GOD  for you brethren beloved of  THE  LORD  because  GOD  ---hath from the beginning  ---  chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth---

 

GENESIS 1:2  and the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the spirit of  GOD  moved upon the face of the waters 

PSALM 29:3  the voice of  THE  LORD  is upon the waters the  GOD  of glory thundereth  THE  LORD  is upon many waters 

 

2 JOHN 1:9  whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of  CHRIST  --HATH  NOT  GOD--  he that abideth in the doctrine of  CHRIST  he hath both  THE  FATHER  AND  THE  SON

--1:10--  if there come --any-- unto you and bring not this doctrine  receive him not into your house neither bid him  GOD  speed 

--1:11--  for he that biddeth him  GOD  speed is partaker of his evil deeds

 

1 TIMOTHY 6:1 let as many servants as are under the yoke count there own masters worthy of all honor that the name of  GOD  and  HIS  doctrine be not blasphemed 

--1:2-- and they that have believing masters let them not despise them because they are brethren but rather do them service because they are faithful and beloved partakers of the benefit these things teach and exhort

 

--1:3-- if any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholesome words even the words of our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  and the doctrine which is according to godliness 

--1:4-- he is proud knowing nothing but doting about questions and strifes of words whereof whereof cometh envy strife railings evil surmisings 

--1:5-- perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth supposing that gain is godliness from such withdraw thyself 

--1:6-- but godliness with contentment is great gain

 

TITUS 2:11  for the grace of  GOD  that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men 

--2:12-- teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present world 

 

EPHESIANS 4:3  endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace 

--4:4-- there is one body and one spirit even as you are  --called in one hope of your calling--

 

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth the flesh profiteth nothing the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are life 

 

1 CORINTHIANS 1:10  now I beseech you brethren by the name of our  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST  that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment 

 

COLOSSIANS 1:21  and you that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works yet now hath  HE  reconciled 

--1:22--  in the body of  HIS  flesh through death to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in  HIS  sight

--1:23--  IF  YOU  CONTINUE  in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from --the hope of the gospel-- which you have heard and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven whereof I Paul am made a minister 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST