Differences between Rapture and 2nd Coming

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, EddieM said:

I don't believe that believers are mentioned as being judged at the GWT. I haven't studied that enough to confirm this, but it is widely held.

Can you shed some light on this?

The sheep and goats judgement? 

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Why are these people, the sheep on the right, entering into the kingdom? They are judged righteous by what they did. They ask what they did:

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

They didn't even know what they did. Jesus tell them:

And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

I find these people to be believers in the truest sense. Notice how Jesus doesn't mention things like going to church, the worship team, prophesying, casting out demons, large congregations or religious doctrine. Interesting, isn't it?

In Rev 20;

Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

Here we have the dead at the GWT.

And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

Clearly a deeds based judgment. Same as in Matt 25. The sheep enter in based on the love they had for others, deeds, and the goats were not let in based on lack of deeds.

14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

IF a name was not found. Big if. This is a judgement based on deeds, names will be found in the Book of Life at this judgement. This mirrors Matt 25:

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The only way anyone gets in is if their name is written in the book and that is based on deeds. Both Matt 25:31-46 and Rev 20:11-15 are the same deeds based judgement and only believers enter the kingdom. 

[DeighAnn]

On 11/4/2024 at 7:05 AM, EddieM said:

No matter how hard you try, you can't get away from the resurrection and translation that take place at the end of the Second Coming, as described in your quote here as well as in Dan 12.10-13.

You quoted: And they came to life (were resurrected) and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

I don't know why you keep fighting the resurrection and translation that takes place at Christ's second coming. The only believers who will enter the Millennium are those in glorified bodies.

Show me one example of a believer entering the Millennium in his natural body. The post trib position can not do that.

I hope I am not being disrespectful, but I really want a post tribber to show me how believers in their natural bodies enter the Millennium.

 

I am a post tribber and I believe WHAT you are asking cannot be answered by anyone.  There is not a pre, post, mid and/or etc. that will ever be able to show any natural bodies in the Millennium. A few examples 

This now I say brothers, that flesh and blood [the] kingdom of God to inherit not is able, nor the decay the immortality does inherit.  Behold a mystery to you I tell.  All not we will sleep ALL however we will be changed in an instant, in twinkling of an eye
at the last trumpet,

(aka THE SECOND ADVENT of which we are told in 2 Thess...NOW we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.)



the trumpet will sound for and the DEAD will be raised imperishable and we will be changed.  (hence the 'lake of fire' for the 'body and soul' of those judged to it by GOD)

because
"HAS been swallowed up death in victory", so there can be NO DEATH during the Millennium as the only 'death' left once that begins will be of BOTH body and soul in the LOF.  

ALSO, this verse is extremely specific as to ANYONE still being in their flesh and blood body for the Mill
 

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat

(at the TOP of the food chain) the flesh of kings,
(them that serve them) and the flesh of captains,
(other types of rulers and people) and the flesh of mighty men,
(soldiers and such) and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them,

(and the ONE no one can get past without some kind of 'tradition, theory, doctrine or wisdom of man type action) 

and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
 

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

(and in case you missed that specifically written in the words of God witness, He quickly gives us another one)

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

aka NO flesh and blood bodies in the Millennium...HENCE the 'dead' that rise from the place of the dead, the place Jesus went to for 3 days, the place where the captives (break one law break them all so you die) were held captive until He led them to the Father. 

Meaning any 'survivor' from the nations would be one of the DEAD that will rise 'imperishable' yet not immortal since they still face the LOF (as opposed to the DEAD who don't rise until the GWTJ.  Though the DEAD who do rise at Christs return also rise up in their SPIRITUAL body, they will not/cannot receive the status of 'eternal life/one of the living' until AFTER Satan is loosed at the end and that Day for a short season, to be proved and to try to get their names put in the book of life opened at that time.  


another thing to ponder is NO FLESH would be saved if the time were not shortened...


So who populates the Mill? 

1  Those who 'slept' rose and followed Him aka the 'never die's' who return with Him in His army of holy ones, to sit upon the thrones 

2  Those who are 'alive and remain' who are changed and meet up with those in the air who returned with Him to rule and reign with Christ OVER


3  THE DEAD who do 'rise' at His return (as opposed to THE DEAD who don't rise until the end at the GWTJ).  


 23  Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


Because I am presently living and I believe in Him and am watching for Him, I believe that though my flesh and blood body'die', I myself, will continue on living,  that LIFE now being lived in my Spiritual body, in the Spiritual realm, with Him.  Because of that, it would be impossible for me to be amongst 'the dead' who 'don't know the way in which to follow Him' so they 'the dead', await His return to rise up from the place of the dead for the Day of the Lord.   

 

[EddieM]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am a post tribber and I believe WHAT you are asking cannot be answered by anyone.  There is not a pre, post, mid and/or etc. that will ever be able to show any natural bodies in the Millennium.

The Pre Trib position holds that the Rapture happens before the Trib. All believers are resurrected or translated at that time and 0nly unbelievers enter the Trib. Then, during the Trib many will be saved. All those who are saved and make it to the 2nd coming enter the Mill in natural bodies.

Your statement about Flesh and Blood not inheriting the KOG is a reference to the consummation of the KOG which doesn't happen until there is a new heaven and new earth. The Millennium is not the consummation of the KOG.

The reason the post trib doesn't have people in natural bodies entering the Mill is because at the post trib Rapture results in all dead believers being resurrected and all alive believers are changed in the winking of the eye. All believers will be in glorified bodies.

And yes, people die during the Millennium. see Isa 65.20.

You need to be reading post trib scholars to get your understanding of the post trib position. You will only get confused out here if you ask me.

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

As Jesus said, 

So when you see the abomination of desolationa standing where it should not beb (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

17How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 18Pray that this will not occur in the winter. 19For those will be days of tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short.

So no, it is not a long period of time. It's so destructive it must be stopped short of the full duration.

Shalom, @Diaste.

As I've already said, the Olivet Discourse was Yeeshuwa`s method of revealing some of the future in a prophecy. He would start with a near prophecy and then peer off into the more distant future. Then, He would SNAP BACK to the future of the disciples right there in front of Him. Then, He would peer off into the more distant future, again.

This "saw-tooth pattern" was repeated several times. in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

So, how does one tell if He is speaking about the near future or the more distant future? The answer is simple: It's found in the PRONOUNS He uses! At least, the Greek pronouns into which the Olivet Discourse was translated (although He probably spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, which is a dialect of Hebrew from Syria which used to be called "Aram"). When the pronouns were variations of "humeis," meaning "you" in the plural number, then He was speaking to His disciples about things they themselves would experience. When He shifted to "polloi," meaning "many," He was speaking about people in the distant future.

Another point is that "Let" means "Allow" and has a "you" (plural) understood, since it is a command form translated into English! So, when one reads the following, one should at least understand that there are "you's" that are understood in English stemming from the Greek verbs: "So when YOU see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then [YOU] let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 [YOU] let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And [YOU] let no one in the field return for his cloak."

Third, the verbs that end in either "-te" (tau-epsilon) or "-the" (theta-epsilon) are future verbs in the second-person plural, as well.

So, here in Matthew 24, verses 15-20 are in the NEAR future - a future some of His disciples sitting right there would experience!

Indeed, this happened in 66-67 A.D., prior to the destruction of the Temple. The disciples ran to the hills upon the mountains of Israel, and regrouped in Pella in the Decapolis on the east side of the Jordan River (where the nation of Jordan exists today).

Wikipedia gives us this information:

"The fourth-century Church Fathers Eusebius of Caesarea and Epiphanius of Salamis cite a tradition that before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 the early Christians had been warned to flee to Pella in the region of the Decapolis across the Jordan River." (Emphasis mine.)

Fourth, verse 20 is often misunderstood because most generalize what Yeeshuwa` said in verse 19. He didn't say that the TIME PERIOD would be shortened; He said that the "days of tribulation" WITHIN the time period would be shortened! He's telling them that the "days of tribulation" would not be so overwhelming as to destroy the children of Israel, believing and unbelieving, completely! There would be times in between when their numbers would be replenished. This is why we can now group the "days of tribulation" into shorter events, such as the "Spanish Inquisition" or the "Holocaust."

The LENGTH of the time period is determined by how soon the Jews can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," "Welcome, Comer in [the] name (on [the] authority) of YHWH," referring to Yeeshuwa`, God's Messiah, Anointed to be their King! (Matthew 23:38-39)

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ignoring Rev 7?

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands...

...So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Very much in heaven. proven here:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Where are the elders and the living creatures? We see that in Rev 4. The elders and the living creatures are in the throne room with God. The saved from great tribulation are in heaven, with God, around the throne. 

The many OT prophecies of the kingdom are clarified by the prophecies of Jesus in the NT. This is just another case of selective evidence, failing to take ALL the evidence into account. 

I'm curious; why do you think Revelation 7 occurs in this supposed place called "Heaven?" If God is OMNIPRESENT and INFINITE in size and INTIMATELY KNOWS His WHOLE Creation down to the last neutrino and quark, then WHY WOULD HE LIMIT HIMSELF TO A "THRONE" OR A "THRONE ROOM?"

When Solomon was dedicating the Temple to God, he said,

1 Kings 8:22-30 (KJV)

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said,

"LORD (YHWH) God of Israel, [there is] no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled [it] with thine hand, as [it is] this day. 25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying,

"'There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.'

26 "And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, THE HEAVEN AND HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; HOW MUCH LESS THIS HOUSE THAT I HAVE BUILDED? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, [even] toward the place of which thou hast said, 'My name shall be there': that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place (Hebrew: וְאַתָּה תִּשְׁמַע אֶל־מְקוֹם שִׁבְתְּךָ אֶל־הַשָּׁמַיִם = "V'attaah tishma` 'el-mqowm shiVtkhaa 'el-hashshaamayim" = "And-thou hear toward-[the]-place thou-remainest to/toward-the-skies"): and when thou hearest, forgive."

The point is that Shlomoh ("Solomon") KNEW that a simple house - a Temple - couldn't house the God of the UNIVERSE! Even the UNIVERSE can't contain Him!

What do you do with the NINE verses that say that "He dwells between the two cherubim," referring to the mercy seat above the ark of the covenant?

These are ...

Exodus 25:22 KJV - 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Numbers 7:89 KJV - 89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that [was] upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.
1 Samuel 4:4 KJV - 4 So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth [between] the cherubims: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, [were] there with the ark of the covenant of God.
2 Samuel 6:2 KJV - 2 And David arose, and went with all the people that [were] with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth [between] the cherubims.
2 Kings 19:15 KJV - 15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou art the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
1 Chonicles 13:6 KJV - 6 And David went up, and all Israel, to Baalah, [that is], to Kirjathjearim, which [belonged] to Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God the LORD, that dwelleth [between] the cherubims, whose name is called [on it].
Psalm 80:1 KJV - 1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest [between] the cherubims, shine forth.
Psalm 99:1 KJV - 1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth [between] the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
Isaiah 37:16 KJV - 16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Even the New Jerusalem, which will be a HUGE city, won't be even remotely large enough to house Him! And, this city upon the New Earth, will be our eternal home, not some "Heaven!"

The words for "heaven" (or "heavens") in the Bible are the Hebrew word "shaamayim," which is a DUAL word meaning "skies," dual referring to the fact that there's a nighttime sky and a daytime sky; and the Greek word "ouranos" which means "sky" and is singular. The plural "ouranoi" is also used, and there are also compound words from this word: "mesouraneema" ("middle of the sky"), "epouranios" ("above the sky"), "ouranios" ("of the sky"), and "ouranothen" ("from the sky"). 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Diaste.

As I've already said, the Olivet Discourse was Yeeshuwa`s method of revealing some of the future in a prophecy. He would start with a near prophecy and then peer off into the more distant future. Then, He would SNAP BACK to the future of the disciples right there in front of Him. Then, He would peer off into the more distant future, again.

This "saw-tooth pattern" was repeated several times. in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

So, how does one tell if He is speaking about the near future or the more distant future? The answer is simple: It's found in the PRONOUNS He uses! At least, the Greek pronouns into which the Olivet Discourse was translated (although He probably spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, which is a dialect of Hebrew from Syria which used to be called "Aram"). When the pronouns were variations of "humeis," meaning "you" in the plural number, then He was speaking to His disciples about things they themselves would experience. When He shifted to "polloi," meaning "many," He was speaking about people in the distant future.

Another point is that "Let" means "Allow" and has a "you" (plural) understood, since it is a command form translated into English! So, when one reads the following, one should at least understand that there are "you's" that are understood in English stemming from the Greek verbs: "So when YOU see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then [YOU] let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 [YOU] let no one on the housetop go back inside to retrieve anything from his house. 16And [YOU] let no one in the field return for his cloak."

Third, the verbs that end in either "-te" (tau-epsilon) or "-the" (theta-epsilon) are future verbs in the second-person plural, as well.

So, here in Matthew 24, verses 15-20 are in the NEAR future - a future some of His disciples sitting right there would experience!

Indeed, this happened in 66-67 A.D., prior to the destruction of the Temple. The disciples ran to the hills upon the mountains of Israel, and regrouped in Pella in the Decapolis on the east side of the Jordan River (where the nation of Jordan exists today).

Wikipedia gives us this information:

"The fourth-century Church Fathers Eusebius of Caesarea and Epiphanius of Salamis cite a tradition that before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 the early Christians had been warned to flee to Pella in the region of the Decapolis across the Jordan River." (Emphasis mine.)

Fourth, verse 20 is often misunderstood because most generalize what Yeeshuwa` said in verse 19. He didn't say that the TIME PERIOD would be shortened; He said that the "days of tribulation" WITHIN the time period would be shortened! He's telling them that the "days of tribulation" would not be so overwhelming as to destroy the children of Israel, believing and unbelieving, completely! There would be times in between when their numbers would be replenished. This is why we can now group the "days of tribulation" into shorter events, such as the "Spanish Inquisition" or the "Holocaust."

The LENGTH of the time period is determined by how soon the Jews can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," "Welcome, Comer in [the] name (on [the] authority) of YHWH," referring to Yeeshuwa`, God's Messiah, Anointed to be their King! (Matthew 23:38-39)

I'm curious; why do you think Revelation 7 occurs in this supposed place called "Heaven?" If God is OMNIPRESENT and INFINITE in size and INTIMATELY KNOWS His WHOLE Creation down to the last neutrino and quark, then WHY WOULD HE LIMIT HIMSELF TO A "THRONE" OR A "THRONE ROOM?"

When Solomon was dedicating the Temple to God, he said,

1 Kings 8:22-30 (KJV)

22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said,

"LORD (YHWH) God of Israel, [there is] no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled [it] with thine hand, as [it is] this day. 25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying,

"'There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.'

26 "And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.

27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, THE HEAVEN AND HEAVEN OF HEAVENS CANNOT CONTAIN THEE; HOW MUCH LESS THIS HOUSE THAT I HAVE BUILDED? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, [even] toward the place of which thou hast said, 'My name shall be there': that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place (Hebrew: וְאַתָּה תִּשְׁמַע אֶל־מְקוֹם שִׁבְתְּךָ אֶל־הַשָּׁמַיִם = "V'attaah tishma` 'el-mqowm shiVtkhaa 'el-hashshaamayim" = "And-thou hear toward-[the]-place thou-remainest to/toward-the-skies"): and when thou hearest, forgive."

The point is that Shlomoh ("Solomon") KNEW that a simple house - a Temple - couldn't house the God of the UNIVERSE! Even the UNIVERSE can't contain Him!

What do you do with the NINE verses that say that "He dwells between the two cherubim," referring to the mercy seat above the ark of the covenant?

These are ...

Exodus 25:22 KJV - 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which [are] upon the ark of the testimony, of all [things] which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.
Numbers 7:89 KJV - 89 And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that [was] upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him.
1 Samuel 4:4 KJV - 4 So the people sent to Shiloh, that they might bring from thence the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth [between] the cherubims: and the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, [were] there with the ark of the covenant of God.
2 Samuel 6:2 KJV - 2 And David arose, and went with all the people that [were] with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth [between] the cherubims.
2 Kings 19:15 KJV - 15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou art the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
1 Chonicles 13:6 KJV - 6 And David went up, and all Israel, to Baalah, [that is], to Kirjathjearim, which [belonged] to Judah, to bring up thence the ark of God the LORD, that dwelleth [between] the cherubims, whose name is called [on it].
Psalm 80:1 KJV - 1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.]] Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest [between] the cherubims, shine forth.
Psalm 99:1 KJV - 1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth [between] the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
Isaiah 37:16 KJV - 16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest [between] the cherubims, thou [art] the God, [even] thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Even the New Jerusalem, which will be a HUGE city, won't be even remotely large enough to house Him! And, this city upon the New Earth, will be our eternal home, not some "Heaven!"

The words for "heaven" (or "heavens") in the Bible are the Hebrew word "shaamayim," which is a DUAL word meaning "skies," dual referring to the fact that there's a nighttime sky and a daytime sky; and the Greek word "ouranos" which means "sky" and is singular. The plural "ouranoi" is also used, and there are also compound words from this word: "mesouraneema" ("middle of the sky"), "epouranios" ("above the sky"), "ouranios" ("of the sky"), and "ouranothen" ("from the sky"). 

I didn't read your whole book but it doesn't matter. If one blithely ignores a major prophetic component in the timeline no understanding will arise. 

The starting gun is the A of D. It's just that simple, no deep linguistic analysis required. 

The A of D is the same one as described by the Jews as occurring circa 167-169 BC here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/353-abomination-of-desolation

By this guy, described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

The prophesied A of D, as described in antiquity, the jumping off point of GT as foretold by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, has not yet occurred. 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/8/2024 at 4:54 AM, Diaste said:

The sheep and goats judgement? 

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Why are these people, the sheep on the right, entering into the kingdom? They are judged righteous by what they did. They ask what they did:

Shalom, @Diaste.

The sheep and goats judgment doesn't come at the END of the Millennium; it comes at its BEGINNING! It's RIGHT AFTER His arrival! A quotation should be made in its entirety to be sure of its context.

This part of what was quoted must be included:

Matthew 25:31-32 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: ..."

One must remember that there are TWO Kingdoms in view! Yeeshuwa` had already given that information in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.' "

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is (=) the Son of man;
38 The field is (=) the world;
the good seed are (=) the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are (=) the children of the wicked [one];
39 The enemy that sowed them is (=) the devil;
the harvest is (=) the end of the world (Greek: τοῦ αἰῶνός = tou aioonos = "of-the age");
and the reapers are (=) the angels.

At this point, one can now use these identified elements, plugging them into His parable as originally stated:

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed the children of the kingdom in his world: 25 But while men slept, the devil came and sowed the children of the wicked [one] among the children of the kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked [one] also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked [one]?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'the devil hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked [one], ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the world (Greek: τοῦ αἰῶνός = tou aioonos = "of-the age"): and in the time of the end of the world (Greek: τοῦ αἰῶνός = tou aioonos = "of-the age") I will say to the angels, "Gather ye together first the children of the wicked [one], and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn."' "

Now, we can add the rest of His explanation:

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: τοῦ αἰῶνός = tou aioonos = "of-the age"). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS (the Son-of-man's) KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

This is another instance where understanding the difference between the Son and the Father is important!

The Kingdom (Empire) of the Son of man begins at His Coming and will be within this age for a thousand years. Then, at the end of this age and the beginning of His Father's Kingdom will be at the Great White Throne Judgment and the re-forming of this earth into the New Earth. This is where 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 come in: Speaking about the important resurrections, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 "For he hath put all things under his feet." {But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."} 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

More later ...

 

[Retrobyter]

59 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I didn't read your whole book but it doesn't matter. If one blithely ignores a major prophetic component in the timeline no understanding will arise. 

The starting gun is the A of D. It's just that simple, no deep linguistic analysis required. 

The A of D is the same one as described by the Jews as occurring circa 167-169 BC here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/353-abomination-of-desolation

By this guy, described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

The prophesied A of D, as described in antiquity, the jumping off point of GT as foretold by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, has not yet occurred. 

Well then, the "starting gun" was in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! The disciples had to be able to see it! That's what Yeeshuwa` said in Matthew 24!

Edited November 10, 2024 by Retrobyter
to add clarity

[DeighAnn]

11 hours ago, EddieM said:

The Pre Trib position holds that the Rapture happens before the Trib. All believers are resurrected or translated at that time and 0nly unbelievers enter the Trib. Then, during the Trib many will be saved. All those who are saved and make it to the 2nd coming enter the Mill in natural bodies.

Your statement about Flesh and Blood not inheriting the KOG is a reference to the consummation of the KOG which doesn't happen until there is a new heaven and new earth. The Millennium is not the consummation of the KOG.

The reason the post trib doesn't have people in natural bodies entering the Mill is because at the post trib Rapture results in all dead believers being resurrected and all alive believers are changed in the winking of the eye. All believers will be in glorified bodies.

And yes, people die during the Millennium. see Isa 65.20.

You need to be reading post trib scholars to get your understanding of the post trib position. You will only get confused out here if you ask me.

17For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

NEW Heaven and NEW earth,  comes after the Millennium, no babies dying, no old men dying...

 DEATH/Satan will be bound for the 1000 years.  

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


The 'dead' are the corruptible that put on the incorruption, the 'never die' receive the immortality.  The dead that are raised up CANT 'come to life/put on immortality' UNTIL the end of the Mill at the GWTJ by getting their names in the book of life.  


Please share with me the verses where you find a body that has gone BACK TO DUST being raised up from the grave being made AGAIN of 'flesh and blood'.

 

The DEAD who rise are raised up, are raised up in an incorruptible/spiritual body STILL as SPIRITUALLY DEAD as when they went into the grave BUT facing the 2nd death, hence not immortal.    

Please share me the verses where during the Millennium, one man kills another man.  And wouldn't THAT ADD a THIRD DEATH?

  
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well then, the "starting gun" was in the FIRST CENTURY A.D! The disciples had to be able to see it! That's what Yeeshuwa` said in Matthew 24!

No. The only A of D Jesus could be referring to, and the one prophesied in Daniel, is the one committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It is described here:

https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes

I'll give the highlights[lowlights] of the A of D, in bold

then the true character of the Hellenism that Antiochus desired was revealed to the Jews. He entered the Temple precincts, not out of curiosity, but to plunder the treasury, and carried away valuable utensils, such as the golden candlestick upon the altar and the showbread table, likewise of gold. This spoliation of the Sanctuary frustrated all the attempts of Jason and the other Tobiads to Hellenize the people, for even the most well-disposed of Hellenizers among them felt outraged at this desecration....

Antiochus had no time for Palestine; but when the Romans compelled him to forego his plans of conquest, his rage at the unexpected impediment was wreaked upon the innocent Jews. An officer, Apollonius, was sent through the country with an armed troop, commissioned to slay and destroy. He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city. Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected. The officers charged with carrying out these commands did so with great rigor; a veritable inquisition was established with monthly sessions for investigation. The possession of a sacred book or the performance of the rite of circumcision was punished with death.

On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (http://d3sva65x0i5hnc.cloudfront.net/V01p635001.jpg, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem.See Abomination of Desolation.

 

 

Images of pages

http://drtgfht421y7f.cloudfront.net/EE1E634X.jpg
V:1 P:634

 

http://drtgfht421y7f.cloudfront.net/EF1F635W.jpg
V:1 P:635

"

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Diaste.

The sheep and goats judgment doesn't come at the END of the Millennium; it comes at its BEGINNING! It's RIGHT AFTER His arrival! A quotation should be made in its entirety to be sure of its context.

We have already discussed this, and no, the Sheep and Goats isn't at the beginning, it's the GWT, just two sets of details from the same event. 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This part of what was quoted must be included:

Matthew 25:31-32 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: ..."

One must remember that there are TWO Kingdoms in view! Yeeshuwa` had already given that information in Matthew 13:

Two Kingdoms? huh?

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

This is where 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 come in: Speaking about the important resurrections, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 (2) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 27 "For he hath put all things under his feet." {But when he saith "all things are put under [him," it is] manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him."} 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

More later ...

 

You're misreading. Jesus has all power and authority in heaven and earth. That's an important tidbit. Jesus has the keys to the kingdom. Jesus is going to put it all right in heaven and on earth. Not all is right in heaven, Satan is there. He has has to done away with. 

Once Jesus sets it all right, reboots, resets. He give the entire kingdom back to the Father. There aren't two, there's one. It simply has to be cleaned up. Only after the 1000 years is there a new heaven and new earth, which is not 'new' it's refreshed, cleaned, untainted by evil.