Order of the Resurrections

[Diaste]

Jesus is the 1st of the Resurrections. The Primary Resurrected. The Promise of all future resurrections. 

Confess with your mouth His Lordship and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved.

Then the resurrections of the saints and sinners.

The primary resurrection of Rev 20 are those who faced the beast, as it is written:

 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These are the dead in Christ that faced the beast. Clearly.

The following are all that are dead that did not face the beast, the mark or the image.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete

This is all the rest of the dead, the general resurrection at the last day, before the GWT.

The beast is the antagonist of the great tribulation, distress that was never before and never will be again. That's the same beast of the mark, the image, and the beheadings above, in Rev 20

The same great tribulation is seen in Rev 7:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; "

The ones in Rev 20 and in Rev 7 are the same group. They came from the same time and faced the same antagonist.

Therefore, the primary resurrection is only those from the GT, having faced the beast and won, and are now resurrected and translated to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

Everyone else waits till the 1000 years are complete.

There is no general resurrection of all the dead believers from Adam to the 2nd Advent when Jesus returns.

Which means, there is no pretrib rapture. 

 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands.

I see 2 groups here.

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God"....

AND....

"Those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands"

There are many who have been/are being beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. There will be many more before the mark of the beast is instituted.

[Indentured Servant]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Jesus is the 1st of the Resurrections. The Primary Resurrected. The Promise of all future resurrections. 

Confess with your mouth His Lordship and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved.

Then the resurrections of the saints and sinners.

The primary resurrection of Rev 20 are those who faced the beast, as it is written:

 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These are the dead in Christ that faced the beast. Clearly.

The following are all that are dead that did not face the beast, the mark or the image.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete

This is all the rest of the dead, the general resurrection at the last day, before the GWT.

The beast is the antagonist of the great tribulation, distress that was never before and never will be again. That's the same beast of the mark, the image, and the beheadings above, in Rev 20

The same great tribulation is seen in Rev 7:

"“These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; "

The ones in Rev 20 and in Rev 7 are the same group. They came from the same time and faced the same antagonist.

Therefore, the primary resurrection is only those from the GT, having faced the beast and won, and are now resurrected and translated to live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

Everyone else waits till the 1000 years are complete.

There is no general resurrection of all the dead believers from Adam to the 2nd Advent when Jesus returns.

Which means, there is no pretrib rapture. 

 

People prefer the "Rapture Doctrine" over the biblical rapture. 

Most of our understanding of rapture comes from a narrative derived from the manipulation of scripture and of people's minds.

We believe what we're told to believe by our pulpiteers and authors of the various fictionalized interpretations from those who can only hyper-focus on out-of-context words and phrases taken out of scripture.

How any times do we hear mantras like, "God will not appoint us to wrath," "Don't be Left Behind," "taken in the twinkling of an eye," "the Rapture is our blessed hope," "the (word) "church" isn't mentioned in certain chapters of Revelation," "He's not going to beat up his bride," and many religious quotes that reflect a complete misunderstanding of the end times, fostered by the repetition of the concept that believing anything else is heresy.

Nobody in western Christianity has the courage to face, embrace, and chase the Truth because it would upend their lives... Loss of friends, family, job, reputation, etc. 

If we can be convinced that persecution, including death, is only mentioned in scripture for everyone else but the 21st century, western church goers, then we can be convinced that we can remain comfortable and oblivious to those who are suffering for their faith, and watching their family members get murdered for owning a bible in other countries. That is the persecution that we've been taught would never touch us.

Oh, and then we believe rapture means a trip to heaven before those who e actually earned it.

 

...love your boldness to confront this errant, man-made doctrine. God bless.

Edited November 9, 2024 by Indentured Servant

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

I see 2 groups here.

"I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God"....

AND....

"Those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands"

There are many who have been/are being beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. There will be many more before the mark of the beast is instituted.

I agree. I think I mentioned that. If I didn't, I should have. But yes, the idea seems to include any, perhaps from any time, that were beheaded for the Word and their testimony. 

I speculate that even if a person did only one thing, they are in the group. As in, a person would not have to refuse the mark AND, refuse to worship the beast AND refuse to worship the image. But I suppose that if one didn't take the mark, they wouldn't worship the beast. So if you don't do one, you don't do all, and if you do one, you do all. 

I don't know if taking the mark is an offense that of which one can repent. I think it might be. I hope so. I would hope the chance for repentance for doing those things always exists. I know it doesn't after this:

And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

 

 

[douggg]

There are three resurrections to come.

1. the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:13-18.   To happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.     Could happen at any time.    Even today.

2. the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints of Revelation 20:4-6.

3. the resurrection of the rest of the dead for the Great White Throne Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15.

 

 

 

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

. the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:13-18.   To happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thessalonians2:4.     Could happen at any time.    Even today.

Hi dougg,

1 Thes 4:13-18 speaks about the "coming of the Lord" .... verse 15

2 Thes 2 speaks about the "coming of the Lord" ... verse 1

Matt 24:30 speaks about the "coming of the Son of Man" ... (the coming of the Lord)

Matt 24 shows this "coming of the Lord" as happening AFTER the abomination of desolation

2 Thes 2 shows this "coming of the Lord" as happening after the man of lawlessness is revealed (the AofD)

1 Thes 4 does not show timing at all 

[douggg]

53 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

1 Thes 4:13-18 speaks about the "coming of the Lord" .... verse 15

2 Thes 2 speaks about the "coming of the Lord" ... verse 1

Matt 24:30 speaks about the "coming of the Son of Man" ... (the coming of the Lord)

Matt 24 shows this "coming of the Lord" as happening AFTER the abomination of desolation

This one...

John 14:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

53 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

2 Thes 2 shows this "coming of the Lord" as happening after the man of lawlessness is revealed (the AofD)

 The sit-in temple act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4 is the transgression (an act) of desolation,  Daniel 8:12-13.

Differently, the AoD, abomination of desolation, is a statue image of the person after he has become the beast-king, "set up" on the temple mount.     "set up" is the phrase used in Daniel 12:11 kjv.

53 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

1 Thes 4 does not show timing at all 

I hear you.

I get the timing from 1Thessalonians5:9-11, as being before the beginning of the day of the Lord, when God's wrath shall be poured out.  

The beginning of the day of the Lord, I get from 2Thessalonians2:1-4, as being the day when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

I call my rapture timing view as....

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by douggg

[JoeCanada]

15 hours ago, douggg said:

 The sit-in temple act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4 is the transgression (an act) of desolation,  Daniel 8:12-13.

2Th 2:4 ..... "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God"

Although this could be called a "transgression of desolation" .... it is called "the abomination of desolation" in both Daniel and Matthew:

Dan 12:11 ..... “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Mat 24:15  ..... “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

15 hours ago, douggg said:

Differently, the AoD, abomination of desolation, is a statue image of the person after he has become the beast-king, "set up" on the temple mount.

There is no "differently"

It's the same "abomination of desolation".

The temple mount is not called the holy place. Only the temple is called the holy place.

15 hours ago, douggg said:

I get the timing from 1Thessalonians5:9-11, as being before the beginning of the day of the Lord, when God's wrath shall be poured out.  

 

You are correct in seeing 1 Thes 5:9-11's timing for the rapture. It is immediately before the day of the Lord, which is after the opening of the 6th seal. The resurrection and rapture occur at this time ..... and the Day of the Lord follows immediately, later on the same day.

15 hours ago, douggg said:

The beginning of the day of the Lord, I get from 2Thessalonians2:1-4, as being the day when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

2Th 2:1-4  ... "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him 

that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God

Paul is saying that the Day of the Lord will not come before two things happen first:

                    "the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed"

I just don't see beginning of the Day of the Lord as happening on the same day as the "apostasy and the man of lawlessness being revealed"

Those two things need time to be revealed. Those two things, the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, begin the tribulation, not the Day of the Lord.

As Jesus Himself tells us in Matt 24:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

“And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.... (1 Thes 4:15-17)

[douggg]

47 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

There is no "differently"

It's the same "abomination of desolation".

The temple mount is not called the holy place. Only the temple is called the holy place.

 

The abomination of desolation is "set up".  It will be a statue image of the beast king in the standing position, placed on the temple mount.     The temple mount is considered a holy place - that's why there is conflict right now, that the Jews want to build their temple there, but the Muslims forbid them to even pray there.

Also, in Daniel 11:45, it is referred to as God's Holy mountain.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

It is on the temple mount where the beast and the false prophet will be when Jesus returns and they meet their end.

 

 

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

The temple mount is considered a holy place - that's why there is conflict right now, that the Jews want to build their temple there, but the Muslims forbid them to even pray there.

According to Rev 11, the temple is the only place that is holy.

Outside of that, the courtyard, or the temple mount , is not holy.

 Rev 11:1.... Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

 Rev 11:2.... “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months

I don't see a significant difference between transgression and abomination. You say that "transgression of desolation" is the man of sin "sitting" in the temple ..... which scripture says is the abomination of desolation ................  and the abomination of desolation is the image set up on the temple mount ...... which scripture says is not a holy place ..... this is just messed up.

Transgression and abomination are basically the same.

In Psalm 32:5, the psalmist says, “I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, ‘I will confess my transgressions to the LORD.’” In this one verse, “sin,” “iniquity,” and “transgression” are all mentioned. Basically, the three words communicate the same idea: evil and lawlessness, as defined by God

6 hours ago, douggg said:

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;

That's why the King James has a few "flaws"

Are there "seas" in the glorious holy mountain?

NASB says "He will pitch the tents of his royal pavilion between the seas and the beautiful Holy Mountain