The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, abcdef said:

The great eternal city of Jerusalem is completely spiritual.

It is a living city of souls, on the living mountain of Jesus, with a living heaven of God the Father above.

This material heaven universe and earth fly away at the last judgment before death is destroyed.

No. Rev 21 describes physical attributes of the City. This cannot be spiritualized away.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, abcdef said:

This is why I spoke about defining terms and words.

The children of Israel were "called out" before the kingdom came on Pentecost. We who are in the gospel kingdom are also "called out", both are called out.

But there is a difference between those who are before the kingdom and those who are in the Pentecost kingdom.

The difference is that those in the Pentecost gospel kingdom have received the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. This difference is essential in determining prophecy.

Adam, Moses, and others did have the testimony of Jesus, but they were not  members of the Pentecost gospel Kingdom.

So when we discuss the "church", we need to define the meaning of the word as to which group we are centering on.

The Old Testament records the Holy Spirit's presence in the believers pre 1st Century. There is one congregation, One God, One Spirit, One Lord Jesus Christ.

12 hours ago, abcdef said:

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When someone would ask about the "church" after Rev 4, then we might say, "Are the members of the gospel kingdom which began on 33 AD Pentecost mentioned after Rev 4?"

In my opinion they are.

--

 Are members of the 33 AD gospel kingdom seen in heaven with John and Jesus at the time of the writing of the Revelation? No, they are not resurrected yet, they will be resurrected with us.

Those who were resurrected with Jesus are seen in heaven in 96 AD ish.

I think this is more speculation than reason. 

12 hours ago, abcdef said:

--

One reason that the kingdom is not recognized is that people are looking for a "church of gentiles" instead of a "flesh children of Israel gospel kingdom".

The Revelation is about the children of Israel both believing and unbelieving and not about the gentiles in the gospel Pentecost kingdom, although they seem to be mentioned in Rev 12:17. The woman was Israel before Jesus was born Rev 12:1-4, the flesh children of Israel flee into the wilderness of the gentile nations from Jerusalem, and then return after her time is finished.

This shows the flesh children of Israel, in the 33 AD Pentecost gospel kingdom, fleeing while the gentiles in the kingdom did not, mostly. 

 This division shows that the main theme of the Rev 12 story is about the believing flesh of Israel in the 33 AD kingdom.

It's fine to speculate, but you should acknowledge it.

12 hours ago, abcdef said:

----

In the 1st century context, this passage is a message to the flesh children of Israel in the kingdom. Jerusalem fell, how long would it be before it was under the control of Israel again?

The answer in not specific in the years of men, but is symbolic of the 70 AD-1967 time period of tribulation/trouble.

 

No mark, no image, no beast, no dragon, among many other missing elements.

[Diaste]

On 11/29/2024 at 12:44 PM, The Light said:

Here is the order of events. The fathers of Israel were seen as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served Baalpeor. Those of Israel will not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God will remove blindness from part of Israel and they will see Jesus is the Messiah. After the Church is raptured there is a need for first fruits of the second harvest, hence the 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes. Take off those goggles and see.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The order of events is spoken by Jesus in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, not by wishes and hope. 

On 11/29/2024 at 12:44 PM, The Light said:

I missed the part where Paul explained what the last trump was. Did Paul write to the Churches and say that he was sorry for the confusion about the last trump. Did Paul say, "Don't worry John is going to have a Revelation about the last trump and he will fill you in." NO. The Jews all know what the last trump is.........it is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. You not understanding that, doesn't change a thing.

Poor argument. This is the feast of trumps:

Leviticus 23

23The LORD also said to Moses, 24“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts.e 25You must not do any regular work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD.’ ”

Numbers 29

1“On the first day of the seventh month, you are to hold a sacred assembly, and you must not do any regular work. This will be a day for you to sound the trumpets.

2As a pleasing aroma to the LORD, you are to present a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram, and seven male lambs a year old, all unblemished, 3together with their grain offerings of fine flour mixed with oil—three-tenths of an ephaha with the bull, two-tenths of an ephahb with the ram, 4and a tenth of an ephahc with each of the seven male lambs.

5Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. 6These are in addition to the monthly and daily burnt offerings with their prescribed grain offerings and drink offerings. They are a pleasing aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.

If you can, show me any first, middle or last trump in those passages.

The facts are we have a series of trumps associated with the end of the age, Jesus' arrival, the gathering of believers, and the outpouring of wrath. We have a 1st trump and a last trump as eschatological anchors for the understanding of prophecy concerning the end of the age.

There is only one last trump that covers all the bases and answers all the questions of eschatological order and timing; the 7th trump of Revelation.

On 11/29/2024 at 12:44 PM, The Light said:

Secondly if you are waiting for that 7th trumpet to sound before the rapture, you have the Church going through the wrath of God when we are not appointed to wrath. Another unscriptural belief.

Incorrect. This argument is used by the dispensationalists to marginalize the opposition. What I present is the order, timeline, and time periods within the final years of the terminal generation. I've said this before but it bears repeating:

In the last 7 years Jesus tells us there will be an A of D. Jesus also tells us it is the A of D as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel indicates this A of D will occur in the middle of the week. So far I am in agreement with the dispensationalist doctrine.

Jesus says that only after the A of D will there be GT:

"For at that time [the time of the A of D] there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again."

From the two great prophets of God, one being God Himself, we see GT doesn't begin till the middle of the week. 

Then Jesus tells us He arrives only after the days of GT:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:" is when Jesus arrives, as we can see from Matt 24:29-31. Since Jesus only arrives after the GT, and this is when the tribes of earth mourn, this is the parallel to Rev 6:12-17 and Rev 11:15-19, the moment wrath begins.

Even if you don't consider the timing and parallel of Rev 6 and 11 equivalent to Matt 24:29-31, it can't be denied wrath does not occur until after the days of GT, and after the moment Jesus arrives. 

So equating the entire last week with the wrath of God is unsupported by scripture and in fact is a strawman argument employed by the pretrib, dispensational, replacement theology of Darby and MacDonald. 

 

[Diaste]

On 11/29/2024 at 12:30 PM, The Light said:

And yet those of the woman, Israel, that flee to a place of protection won't be Gentiles. On that we can be sure.

Wrong. It's right there in Rev 12 if one reads all the way to the end of the chapter:

"16But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. 17And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

I don't know what you have heard but Jews don't hold to the testimony of Jesus. In fact, the Jews are looking for an earthly king as their Messiah.

This would indicate you place doctrine and tradition over the facts of scripture, using faulty identification and improperly defined terms and ideas, likely of dispensational parentage fostering the idea of replacement theology. 

We see here in Ch. 12 the very church you say isn't there, and within the wrath of God, and ill defined wrath of God and misunderstood timing of events and conditions. 

But let's say you actually meant 'Israel' and not 'Jews'. That would equate believers in Jesus with Israel since the ones who flee, "hold to the testimony of Jesus", as only believers, the elect, the friends of Jesus hold to His testimony, and these are clearly the seed of Israel. 

But again, you would place these believers in the wrath of God when at this point it's concisely defined as the wrath of the dragon; "And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children"

 

[Diaste]

On 11/29/2024 at 12:28 PM, The Light said:

Oh, here they are.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And you expect absolute, concrete proof that "that you are able to understand", showing without any doubt in your mind, that this is the Church in heaven.......for sure.

Who is singing? "When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:"

The elders and creatures are not the church. The church isn't named here. If the church isn't supposed to appear in Revelation after Ch. 4 because we don't see the words 'the church', and that is an argument used to support pretrib, how is the church in Ch. 5? 

This is a better rendering:

"

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign uponb the earth.”

They aren't singing about themselves, they are singing about the soon to be redeemed.

On 11/29/2024 at 12:28 PM, The Light said:

 

It's not good enough that He tells you He is coming in and hour that we think not.

That's day and hour, not year, month, week. Behold!

"

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the homeowner had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect.

32No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on your guard and stay alert!g For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

34It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. 35Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. 36Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. 37And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

What are we supposed to be watching for, staying alert for, be on guard about? The above is explicit, we can't know the day and hour, but we will see the day and hour approaching, else what do we watch for?

This is just another poor argument, in a long series of poor arguments, pretrib uses to justify the unjustifiable. I mean seriously, equating 'day and hour' with week, month and year and arriving at imminence as a doctrine? 

Pretrib has got to be one of the most harmful doctrines extant. It dupes people into complacency and ignorance.

"No prophesied events will occur before the rapture."; when Jesus says exactly the opposite. 

On 11/29/2024 at 12:28 PM, The Light said:

It's not good enough that there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest from the 12 tribes as all we need do is wave our wand, put on our goggles, deny what is written and claim the 144,000 are the Church.

The 144k are the first of those taken up at the gathering. The choicest of the main harvest. 

On 11/29/2024 at 12:28 PM, The Light said:

It's not good enough that we are told that the harvest in Revelation 14, which occurs at the 6th seal has those that have gotten victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are of the twelve tribes.

So, again, you need to consider all the facts. Rev 6:9, "those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." This isn't limited to 12 tribes, this is anyone and everyone so slain under the conditions listed, "the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

I'm sure some of them are from the 12 tribes, but only from the 12 tribes is not justified by the verse:

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. "

This is anyone who overcame. There's no genealogical limit.

 

[Diaste]

On 11/29/2024 at 12:15 PM, The Light said:

So do you think there were any before the flood, that accepted Christ as Messiah?

Many. Paul tells us this.

On 11/29/2024 at 12:15 PM, The Light said:

Oh, there is plenty of evidence, but you need to put down the goggles to see it. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why so many want to make the 70th week of Daniel about the Gentiles is beyond my level of understanding. 

That's because you still haven't the insight for the correct definitions of the terms. You still think the Gentile church replaced the Israel of God. Can't get a bunker buster cruise missile through those fortifications. 

[The Light]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The order of events is spoken by Jesus in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, not by wishes and hope. 

There is a plethora of order of events spoken of in the Bible. However, it you want to speak of Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, we have the exact same order of events in Revelation 6. The coming of Jesus in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 occurs at the 6TH SEAL. Tribulation is over. It has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with the 7th trumpet at end of the wrath of God. You have the Church on the earth during Gods. We are not appointed to wrath.

Here is Paul telling believers that they did not miss the gathering from heaven and earth and that they are not in the Day of the Lord, the seventh seal, one year wrath of God.

2 Thes 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Again, you have the Church on earth during the Day of the Lord, when the Word is clear that the gathering occurs BEFORE the Day of the Lord. You views do not line up with scripture.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Poor argument. This is the feast of trumps:

If you can, show me any first, middle or last trump in those passages.

Leviticus 23

24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

The Feast of Trumpets is a memorial of blowing trumpets. Why don't you go ask a Jew what the last trump is instead of guessing. And you think the last trumpet that sounds will be the sound of an angel? You probably should study the Feasts of God.

After the 7th trumpet blown by an angle there will be Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. There will be a trumpet blown on that day. And there will be more as these feasts do not stop.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The facts are we have a series of trumps associated with the end of the age, Jesus' arrival, the gathering of believers, and the outpouring of wrath. We have a 1st trump and a last trump as eschatological anchors for the understanding of prophecy concerning the end of the age. 

The facts are we have a series of trumpets blown by angels each of which is part of the seventh seal wrath of God. But Jesus comes at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth BEFORE the wrath of God. The gathering is BEFORE the wrath of God. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, is when the last trump sounds. It is when the mystery of bodies change of the people of Daniel.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The people of Daniel are raised immediately after the tribulation of those days. The Church has already been raised and are in heaven. After the tribulation, the 7th seal one year wrath of God begins.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is only one last trump that covers all the bases and answers all the questions of eschatological order and timing; the 7th trump of Revelation.

Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.........immediately after the tribulation of those days..........and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

Again, you have the Church going through the wrath of God which is unscriptural.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Incorrect. This argument is used by the dispensationalists to marginalize the opposition. What I present is the order, timeline, and time periods within the final years of the terminal generation. I've said this before but it bears repeating:

In the last 7 years Jesus tells us there will be an A of D. Jesus also tells us it is the A of D as spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel indicates this A of D will occur in the middle of the week. So far I am in agreement with the dispensationalist doctrine.

Bingo

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Jesus says that only after the A of D will there be GT:

"For at that time [the time of the A of D] there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again."

Bingo.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

From the two great prophets of God, one being God Himself, we see GT doesn't begin till the middle of the week. 

Then Jesus tells us He arrives only after the days of GT:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days:" is when Jesus arrives, as we can see from Matt 24:29-31. Since Jesus only arrives after the GT, and this is when the tribes of earth mourn, this is the parallel to Rev 6:12-17 

Bingo

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

and Rev 11:15-19, the moment wrath begins.

NOPE.

Wrath is OVER at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 7

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. ARMAGEDDON IS ALREADY OVER. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

The trumpets and vials occur in the same frame........the seventh seal Day of the Lord, one year wrath of God. Look at the end of Revelation 11 and then look at the end of Revelation 16.

Revelation 11

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In summary. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, wrath is OVER. Christ has set up His kingdom on the earth.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals of Revelation 6. When you are reading Revelation 15, you are in Revelation 7. When you are reading Revelation 16 you are in the 7th seal, Day of the Lord.....so you are in the same timeframe of Revelation 8-11.

Christ sets up the millennial kingdom when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet. It's over, it's finished, it's complete. You are just getting addition information of the same timeframe when you are reading Rev 13-16.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Even if you don't consider the timing and parallel of Rev 6 and 11 equivalent to Matt 24:29-31, it can't be denied wrath does not occur until after the days of GT, and after the moment Jesus arrives. 

You are exactly right that Revelation 6 is the coming of Jesus, the second coming, immediately after the tribulation. You are incorrect that Revelation 6 has anything whatsoever to do with Revelation 11.

Revelation 6 is the end of the tribulation...............then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Revelation 8-11 is the 7th seal, Day of the Lord. Likewise, Revelation 16 occurs in the 7th seal day of the Lord. It is additional information of the same timeframe

It's time for you to understand what is really happening. You're a smart guy. When the 7th trumpet sounds Christ has returned, set up His kingdom and it is the time of judgement. Armageddon has already happened.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So equating the entire last week with the wrath of God is unsupported by scripture and in fact is a strawman argument employed by the pretrib, dispensational, replacement theology of Darby and MacDonald. 

 

I am not equating the last week with the wrath of God. You, however, understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then you erroneously equate the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth, to the coming of Jesus at the end of wrath when Christ sets up His kingdom. So you are equating the tribulation to the wrath of God.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal it is for a harvest BEFORE the wrath of God. When Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet, it is to set up the millennial kingdom. Wrath is over. Armageddon has happened.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Many. Paul tells us this.

You got a chapter and verse of Paul telling us that people accepted Jesus as Messiah before the flood? 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's because you still haven't the insight for the correct definitions of the terms. You still think the Gentile church replaced the Israel of God.

Can't get a bunker buster cruise missile through those fortifications. 

Are you kidding me? You got the wrong guy. I believe that the Gentiles are the first harvest..........just as the Word says. I believe, the seed of the woman, the tribes across the earth are the second harvest........just as the Word of God says. I believe there are two folds, that make up the Israel of God. The Gentiles, who know Christ and hear His voice are the first fold. Then blindness is removed from part of Israel and they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ........just as the Word says.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The are two folds........two harvests..........grain and fruit........two raptures.....when will the light go on?

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Wrong. It's right there in Rev 12 if one reads all the way to the end of the chapter:

"16But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. 17And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

I don't know what you have heard but Jews don't hold to the testimony of Jesus. In fact, the Jews are looking for an earthly king as their Messiah.

Exactly. But Jews will be regrafted after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in as part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

This would indicate you place doctrine and tradition over the facts of scripture, using faulty identification and improperly defined terms and ideas, likely of dispensational parentage fostering the idea of replacement theology. 

Come on. Dispensationalists don't think they have replaced Israel. That is people that think the Lord only comes one time. They think God has rejected His Chosen.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

We see here in Ch. 12 the very church you say isn't there, and within the wrath of God, and ill defined wrath of God and misunderstood timing of events and conditions. 

What are you talking about? Those events in Revelation 12 where the seed of the woman, who keep the commandments of God and now have the testimony of Jesus Christ, occur during the tribulation period. This does not happen within the 7th seal, Day of the Lord, one year wrath of God.

The Church, the first fold is, in heaven. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Why you insist on making it about the Gentiles is puzzling.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

But let's say you actually meant 'Israel' and not 'Jews'. That would equate believers in Jesus with Israel since the ones who flee, "hold to the testimony of Jesus", as only believers, the elect, the friends of Jesus hold to His testimony, and these are clearly the seed of Israel. 

NO SIR. The Woman, Israel, that flees to her place of protection do not have the testimony of Jesus Christ at the time of the 6th seal or they would be raptured along with the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. 

Those that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses. They are the twelve tribes across............not those of Israel that flee to a place of protection. The woman remains on earth during the wrath of God. The Church and 12 tribes across the earth that have the testimony of Jesus Christ will be in heaven for the marriage supper.

Revelation 15

² And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

³ And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

But again, you would place these believers in the wrath of God when at this point it's concisely defined as the wrath of the dragon; "And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children"

 

No, no, no. The dragon goes after the woman during the tribulation. The woman has fled to her place of protection. When the dragon can't get to the woman, he goes after her seed, which are the Jews all over the world.

The Church is sitting in heaven for the wedding feast. Jesus will return for the seed of the woman as they will know He is the Messiah with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Luke 12

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

[The Light]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Who is singing? "When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:"

The elders and creatures are not the church. The church isn't named here. If the church isn't supposed to appear in Revelation after Ch. 4 because we don't see the words 'the church', and that is an argument used to support pretrib, how is the church in Ch. 5? 

This is a better rendering:

"

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign uponb the earth.”

They aren't singing about themselves, they are singing about the soon to be redeemed.

That's day and hour, not year, month, week. Behold!

"

Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the homeowner had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect.

32No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on your guard and stay alert!g For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

34It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. 35Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. 36Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. 37And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

What are we supposed to be watching for, staying alert for, be on guard about? The above is explicit, we can't know the day and hour, but we will see the day and hour approaching, else what do we watch for?

The first thing we need to know is the scriptures. When is He coming? Which time? Which fold? Which rapture?

It seems both folds will have a chance to know............if they watch.

 

Revelation 3

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

This is just another poor argument, in a long series of poor arguments, pretrib uses to justify the unjustifiable. I mean seriously, equating 'day and hour' with week, month and year and arriving at imminence as a doctrine? 

Pretrib has got to be one of the most harmful doctrines extant. It dupes people into complacency and ignorance.

Boy. We are to watch...........FOR THE LORD.........for the master, not the Antichrist.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

"No prophesied events will occur before the rapture."; when Jesus says exactly the opposite. 

Well, I understand why you are not watching.

If we can't watch, why does He tell us to watch.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

The 144k are the first of those taken up at the gathering. The choicest of the main harvest. 

No. The barley and wheat harvest will occur first. This is the grain harvest and the rapture of the Church.

Then the fruit harvest will occur next. The seed fo the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth.

The 144,000 are the first fruit of this harvest, which occurs at the 6th and is seen at the end of Revelation 14.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

So, again, you need to consider all the facts. Rev 6:9, "those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld." This isn't limited to 12 tribes, this is anyone and everyone so slain under the conditions listed, "the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

I'm sure some of them are from the 12 tribes, but only from the 12 tribes is not justified by the verse:

Those in the 5th seal are talking about the great tribulation. Those that were killed in the 1st century.........etc., etc., are already in heaven as the dead in Christ rise first..........the barley harvest. Those at the 5th seal will be mostly of the 12 tribes except for gleanings of the poor and stranger of the Gentiles.

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. "

This is anyone who overcame. There's no genealogical limit.

 

They are singing the song of Moses. That should tell you who they are.

Revelation 14

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The 144,000 first fruits from twelve tribes, should tell you who they are.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The first fruits of the harvest are of the 12 tribes, so the harvest is of the 12 tribes. If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins.

If you would read the Word of God as it is written and quit changing things to make your doctrine work, you would change your views.

Don't change the Word to fit your doctrine, change your doctrine to fit the Word.