The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

The great multitude is made of the Church which is mostly Gentiles and then there is a second harvest of who the 144,000 from the 12 tribes across the earth are first fruits. There are two folds or two raptures. The two folds will become one fold.

You say the above, then you say:

4 hours ago, The Light said:

They are not members of the mostly Gentile Church that is already in heaven. They are of the 12 tribes across the earth, which is why there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest. 

But this is the same group. The ones martyred in Rev 6 are not the pretrib church, and the great multitude in Rev 7 is not the pretrib church, so both the Rev 6 and Rev 7 groups are either the same, coming from the same time of crisis, or you've added yet another gathering. 

Further, the 144,000 are the first of the primary resurrection of the ones who have faced the beast and then live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. 

The 144,000 are mentioned twice, and neither time is there indicia they are a separate harvest. 

I don't think you understand a harvest. When harvest time comes, the entire field is ripe at the same time. We don't glean a small portion of the plot, then wait several months for the rest of the field to ripen. What the first fruits of the harvest is the initial portion of a single harvest, the best, to be kept aside from the main harvest, which main harvest continues and is indistinguishable from the beginning of the harvest. 

 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

You interpret this as replacement. I do not. Other facts do not bear out replacement theology, and in fact refutes the idea the 'gentile church' has replaced Israel. 

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

After the Church is raptured before the great tribulation

Show me this group pictured in heaven. The saints that came out of GT are pictured. The ones who faced the beast and won are shown to be living and reigning with Jesus, but there is not description of a vast, innumerable group of pretrib believers shown to with the Lord, anywhere throughout scripture. 

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The dispensationalists always make a big deal out of this like it's the key to understanding all eschatology. It's always out of context and leaves out the necessary grafting in of the gentiles to the natural olive tree. It's really just poor understanding repeated ad nauseum. 

4 hours ago, The Light said:

On 11/9/2024 at 8:57 AM, Diaste said:

What do you all mean, "The church isn't in Revelation after the 4th Chapter"?

Just what the Word says. The Church is not mentioned after Revelation 3 until the end of Revelation.

Those brethren, saints, believers and other such names are referring to those of the seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth. The 70th week is when God will turn His attention to the people of Daniel. There are two raptures, two harvests, two folds just as the Word proclaims.

Incorrect. 

Rev 6

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

These are believers. Paul says there is no ethnic distinction in believers in Jesus.

Rev 12

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Again we see believers, and again we have to keep in mind Paul refutes any notion of ethnic distinction. 

Rev 20

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Here we have believers again. They gave up their lives and live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. They aren't pretrib, they are what the dispensationalists call tribulation saints.

They live and reign with Jesus. Where are those pretrib saints? 

Nowhere.

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, abcdef said:

Jn 5:39, The OT saints also held the witness of Jesus in the scriptures.

Adam held the testimony, Gen 3:15.

Moses held the testimony of Jesus through the scriptures.

All those OT saints who held the scriptures were a testimony of Jesus.

John the Baptist held the testimony and was beheaded.

So those seen in heaven in the Revelation in the first century did hold the testimony of Jesus by speaking the scriptures.

Those OT saints, including beheaded John the Baptist, were resurrected by Jesus in 33 Ad. 

They are in heaven now.

Point being the ones holding to such testimony and the word of God ARE the church. They are in Christ. They are the seed of Abraham. They originate from GT, not pretrib. 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, tatwo said:

Perhaps…as silly as it may sound…we should see if we can agree on the actual “identity of the church”…which…if we can…should allow us to be able to establish the spiritual and scriptural standard of the matter at hand…“The Church isn't in Revelation after Ch 4”…among other things.  

One of the things I observed in this forum is the appearance of a number of different definitions for the “church.” There really is no way to have a constructive discussion about anything in the Kingdom of God if we do not have the “de facto Scriptural/spiritual standard” which has been clearly established…as a basis from which to discuss any matter really.

On top of that…the term “church” in any of its designations does not adequately depict the reality of “Christ…Head and Body”…when you consider the many descriptive scriptural terms such as…“Temple of God…Body of Christ…Bride of Christ…House of God…One New Man…Household of God…Kingdom of God…Christ…sons of God…dare I say…Man Child”…there may be more depending on your preference of translation.

Given these abundant scriptural designations of…“Christ…Head and Body”…doesn’t that render the necessity of the word “church” irrelevant in any context…really? Consider Paul in his description of the subject matter…emphasis mine…

“But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  (15)  having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  (16)  and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.  (17)  And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.  (18)  For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.  (19)  Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,  (20)  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,  (21)  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,  (22)  in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” Ephesians 2:13-22 NKJV

Here in Paul…we see designations like…”in Christ Jesus…made both one… to create in Himself one new man from the two…both to God in one body… have access by one Spirit to the Father… fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God… the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord...in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

I don’t use the term “church” personally when referencing the “Christ”…it does not testify to the entirety of those “in Christ.” All the terms that Paul uses in those 9 verses paint a much more complete picture of what constitutes the reality that the Lord Yahshua is concerning Himself with…and what God the Father initially intended to bring forth from His creation.

This…“one new man…fellow citizens…members of the household of God…the building being fitted together…growing into the holy temple of the Lord…built together for a dwelling place of God…in the Spirit” is the only entity that anyone who considers themselves “sons of God” concern themselves with.

This “One New Man” is a “spiritual Man”…constituting the “dwelling place of God”…meaning…He will not be confined to the extents and limitations of creation…anymore than the Lord Yahshua Himself was...that is...once He is fully mature...this will be soon...He is Spirit! 

Now…for those who cannot see…“HIM”…in the book of Revelation…it is very likely that you cannot see…“HIM”…anywhere in Scripture. “HE”…is not the “church”…the “church” as a whole does not recognize Him…and rejects Him…this is what is referred to as the apostasy...the church is of another spirit.

Can we work from here?

Tatwo...:)

In the context of the followers of Jesus it's the congregation of believers. It's the set apart, called out, sanctified members of a corporate body all following a dictate by a leader. In this case, the leader is Jesus Christ.

How the ekklesia is defined is by their attributes. As I am pointing out, this group is clearly defined as having the attributes of  their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God.

Obviously, if one holds to a particular testimony under the umbrella of a written word, they are members of the group. 

The OP is asking if the church is in Revelation after Ch 4 not, how do we define the church based on personal or group bias.

If one cannot see a body of believers in Jesus Christ is present past Ch 4 of Revelation by the written words in Revelation, the context of Revelation, the attributes of the group, and the understanding the only group going to death because they kept their testimony and the commands of God is the believers in Jesus[which is the 'church'], I don't think a wide range of personal or group defined attributes of 'church' is going to help.

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, abcdef said:

Are the 2 witnesses Christians? If so, wouldn't they be in the kingdom (church)?

 

Rev 1:9, Says that John was a companion in tribulation and in the kingdom.

Doesn't that say that John is in the trib period?

Doesn't that say that the kingdom that John is a part of is in the tribulation in the 1st century?

In no way is that equivalent. If you can show when the A of D occurred as spoken by Jesus and referenced from 168 BC A of D committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, then you might have an argument.

If that hasn't happened, then no; the GT has not yet happened. 

15 hours ago, abcdef said:

---

Dan 7 shows a terrible 4th beast, the Romans.

Not Rome.

15 hours ago, abcdef said:

See how all of the heads are part of the Roman beast, extensions of the original 4th beast, still the 4th beast, but different forms of the beast.

We know that Rome invaded Israel in 63 BC and continued for centuries after that.

Is it so hard, to consider, that the time of Jacob's trouble, tribulation, was the time of the 4th beast beginning in 63 BC and continuing for centuries?

It's been considered. No alignment.

15 hours ago, abcdef said:

It would show that the events of the kingdom and the 4th beast were happening in the time of John in the 1st century.

If that were true, where is the 1000 reign of Christ and the saints recorded in history? Then after that reign, a great city is supposed to be on earth and the whole earth is supposed to be new. 

When did that happen?

15 hours ago, abcdef said:

It would also show that the events of the Revelation were happening to John and the kingdom. One example would be Rev 17 where John says that one head "is".

There were 5 heads past, it means that the beast nation was in John's past, present, and future.

No. How is it possible for the events of Revelation to be happening to John when he was recording the prophecy and the prophecy wasn't yet distributed? That would make it a secret prophecy. Does that make any sense? 

What prophecy happens as it's being recorded? That isn't prophecy, it current events.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

There is no such thing as the Gentile Church. That's some doctrine associated with the dispensationalists and replacement theologians, a doctrine not only do I reject, but so does scripture. 

Where is the identification of this group as 'not members of the mostly Gentile church'? Paul says,

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Which truth cancels replacement and dispensation, both doctrinal heresy. 

There is neither Jew nor Greek..........in the kingdom. It should be pretty obvious there are currently Jews and Greeks. The Jews, for the most part, are currently blinded, to bring salvation to the Gentiles. If there are not Gentiles how is Paul the apostle of the Gentiles.

Romans 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

If there were no Gentiles, why did Jesus instruct His disciples not to go to the Gentiles?

Matthew 10

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 

Your quote says there is no male and female. Do you believe that there are currently no males and females?

To say that the Gentiles and Jews are something that dispensationalists or others have made up is clearly not understanding the written Word of God.

Additionally, I don't think you understand what heresy is.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You say the above, then you say:

But this is the same group. The ones martyred in Rev 6 are not the pretrib church, and the great multitude in Rev 7 is not the pretrib church, so both the Rev 6 and Rev 7 groups are either the same, coming from the same time of crisis, or you've added yet another gathering. 

Further, the 144,000 are the first of the primary resurrection of the ones who have faced the beast and then live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. 

The 144,000 are mentioned twice, and neither time is there indicia they are a separate harvest. 

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the fruit harvest. Here we can see that they are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven BEFORE the main harvest.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 

Here is the harvest.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't think you understand a harvest. When harvest time comes, the entire field is ripe at the same time. We don't glean a small portion of the plot, then wait several months for the rest of the field to ripen. What the first fruits of the harvest is the initial portion of a single harvest, the best, to be kept aside from the main harvest, which main harvest continues and is indistinguishable from the beginning of the harvest. 

I don't think you understand what first fruits are. They are the first to ripen and are removed from the field and presented to God before the field is fully ripe.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

You interpret this as replacement. I do not. Other facts do not bear out replacement theology, and in fact refutes the idea the 'gentile church' has replaced Israel. 

I do not interpret those verses as replacement. There are two folds. The first fold will be the Gentiles as they currently are the ones that accept Christ as the Messiah. After that harvest, blindness will be removed for part of Israel. The Jews will then see that Jesus is the Messiah. After the Gentiles are removed from the earth in the first fold what do the Jews say?

Jeremiah 8:

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Jews will be next up.............the fruit harvest seen in Revelation 14. Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection, the two witnesses and unbelievers will be on earth during the 7th seal wrath of God. No believers are appointed to wrath.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Show me this group pictured in heaven. The saints that came out of GT are pictured. The ones who faced the beast and won are shown to be living and reigning with Jesus, but there is not description of a vast, innumerable group of pretrib believers shown to with the Lord, anywhere throughout scripture. 

Here is the Church in heaven before the great multitude is in heaven. This is the first fold.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The dispensationalists always make a big deal out of this like it's the key to understanding all eschatology. It's always out of context and leaves out the necessary grafting in of the gentiles to the natural olive tree. It's really just poor understanding repeated ad nauseum. 

And leaves out the necessary grafting in of the Gentiles??????????

Not sure where you got that false belief from as the Word clearly says that natural branches are broken off so wild branches can be grafted. 

Romans 11

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Incorrect. 

Rev 6

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld."

These are believers. Paul says there is no ethnic distinction in believers in Jesus.

Rev 12

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

The children of the woman are the seed of the woman. A person is considered a Jew if they are born of a Jewish mother. The seed of the woman are Jews. God clearly tells us not to be ignorant of the fact that part of Israel will have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Again we see believers, and again we have to keep in mind Paul refutes any notion of ethnic distinction. 

You are taking things out of context. 

Romans 11

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Rev 20

" And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Here we have believers again. They gave up their lives and live and reign with Jesus for 1000 years. They aren't pretrib, they are what the dispensationalists call tribulation saints.

They live and reign with Jesus. Where are those pretrib saints? 

Nowhere.

Very good. At this point, the two folds will be merged into one fold. At this time there is neither Jew nor Greek.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

[Diaste]

On 11/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, The Light said:

Here is the Church in heaven before the great multitude is in heaven. This is the first fold.

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Sorry, but no. 

"

8When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp, and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 

"These aren't pretrib saints. As the verse says it's the four living creatures and the elders, only. That context makes the next bit a better rendering of the Koine Greek:

 

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals,

because You were slain,

and by Your blood You purchased for God

those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10You have made them to be a kingdom

and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign uponb the earth.”

This doesn't place a pretrib group in heaven.

On 11/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, The Light said:

And leaves out the necessary grafting in of the Gentiles??????????

Not sure where you got that false belief from as the Word clearly says that natural branches are broken off so wild branches can be grafted. 

If you read the passage it doesn't say what you think it says.

"17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

On 11/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, The Light said:

 

The children of the woman are the seed of the woman. A person is considered a Jew if they are born of a Jewish mother. The seed of the woman are Jews. God clearly tells us not to be ignorant of the fact that part of Israel will have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Nope. The seed of the woman are those that:

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.", per Rev 12:17. That's the believers, and they are about to war with the dragon.

On 11/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, The Light said:

You are taking things out of context. 

Romans 11

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Doesn't refute the fact Paul says all one in Christ.

 

On 11/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, The Light said:

 

Very good. At this point, the two folds will be merged into one fold. At this time there is neither Jew nor Greek.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Diaste]

On 11/17/2024 at 7:34 AM, The Light said:

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the fruit harvest. Here we can see that they are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven BEFORE the main harvest.

Revelation 14

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 

You're inserting a time element. We only know that when the harvest occurs, these are the ones that are the initial gleaning. There's no when here in relation to any other event to show there is a long or short time between.

On 11/17/2024 at 7:34 AM, The Light said:

 

Here is the harvest.

Rev 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is wrath, not the gathering of the elect.

On 11/17/2024 at 7:34 AM, The Light said:

 

I don't think you understand what first fruits are. They are the first to ripen and are removed from the field and presented to God before the field is fully ripe.

No field of crops work like that. There is no wheat field I have ever harvested where a few plants in a small area ripen before the rest, and then are gleaned weeks before the rest. The first fruits are just the first of the main harvest taken for a special purpose. That's the analogy. 

On 11/17/2024 at 7:34 AM, The Light said:

I do not interpret those verses as replacement. There are two folds. The first fold will be the Gentiles as they currently are the ones that accept Christ as the Messiah. After that harvest, blindness will be removed for part of Israel. The Jews will then see that Jesus is the Messiah. After the Gentiles are removed from the earth in the first fold what do the Jews say?

I think you are. You continue to assume there is a church apart from the Israel of God. Then you mix in the nation of Israel, Jews, and misinterpret based on a dispensational doctrine. Equating the Israel of God with the nation of Israel and the Jewish religion, while claiming there exists a 'church' apart, set aside for special privilege, is a man construct. 

On 11/17/2024 at 7:34 AM, The Light said:

Jeremiah 8:

20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The Jews will be next up.............the fruit harvest seen in Revelation 14. Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection, the two witnesses and unbelievers will be on earth during the 7th seal wrath of God. No believers are appointed to wrath.