When do you think an individual's life begins?

[Dennis1209]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

First let me pay my respects to scientists - true scientists who observe and then formulate.** Without them we would not have the joy of understanding God's creation. The OP is clear about the moment life begins, and then refers to the problems scientists create with their theories and definitions. To this I say that we will do well not to let scientists set the parameters for understanding the Bible. We have language specialists and we have the Holy Spirit. 

Perhaps the matter of the blood, mentioned above in the OP, can be taken as an example. The scientist is not needed because scripture says "OF one blood ... ." (Act.17:26). That is, God made men FROM one blood not the blood from the fetus. This is crucial because in this principle is the sinlessness of our Lord established. Romans 5:12-17 shows the path of sin and death coming from one MAN - yes, the MALE. So Mary, not having known a man carries the first and only Man not a product of Adam's blood. This is why the Lord's blood can be offered as drink unto life (Jn.6). It also makes Jesus the only man worthy to die for another man.

But perhaps the discussion can be sealed in another fact. The Bible is very careful to use "SEED" where we would normally use "Offspring". It establishes a simple chain for the heirs. But it also establishes God's view of life. The "seed" in Genesis 1:11.12 is meant. That is, an heir, a son or daughter, a life, is in existence at the moment of conception. Genesis 1:11-12, the Law of KINDS, says that the "SEED" within makes a "KIND".

** Many are the men who possess brilliant intellects but go out from a THEORY and try to establish it. These men are not scientists. They are superstitious religionists - exactly what they think of us Christians. They BELIEVE something and seek to prove it. But God has left an unassailable journal of proof - His creation - out of nothing. The very foundation of true science is that NOTHING cannot produce something, never mind a universe with so much matter and energy, that it would take 93 billion years going at the speed of light to transverse - probably only to find out that they didn't know the half of it ...

Ah, we are in total agreement on this one!

I want to add that science is no longer science anymore. Since Newton, science has become a religion, the religion of atheists, that there is no creator God. It is an absolute in our institutions of dumber learning to follow the lie of evolution as fact, not open to debate or higher criticism. Else, ostracizing, ridicule, and loss of tenure.

They substitute unproven theory as the gospel. Forget about science being observable and repeatable, but millions and millions of years.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

[Neighbor]

When do you think an individual's life begins?

 

Hi, to "amplify" on that question I have to answer with a question; When did God first know me?

Amplified Bible
"just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ [actually selected us for Himself as His own] before the foundation of the world, so that we would be holy [that is, consecrated, set apart for Him, purpose-driven] and blameless in His sight. In love"

My life was established, began when God knew of me.

[Hinds Feet]

Thanks everyone for your responses!  I hear everyone, but I also can't help but wonder are we taking things for granted and just having the traditional view that is not necessarily based on anything in Scripture? (That is perhaps a man driven tradition)  I believe the way I view this question is more so from the spiritual side, than just the physical.  So that it is the spirit/and or soul of a person, that is the real person.  The egg and sperm cells are physical things that we see, and the newly formed cell they become is again something that is physical.  On the back end of life, Scripture tells us when a person dies, their spirit leaves the body.  The presence of the body we still have, but the person is not there.  The real essence of that person is elsewhere. (Heaven or Hell)  Jesus even tells us what good does it do us to gain the whole world, and yet lose his soul?  For me, all this points to the spirt/and or soul as being the real individual, or at least their core.  If this is true, then I speculate perhaps life happens not at conception, but sometime later when the newly forming mass of cells implant itself onto the uterine wall of a woman. 
 

I would say the main verse we use to say life begins at conception, is where God tells Jeremiah that before he was "conceived" in his mother's womb, He knew him.  Now, we must understand the people's idea of conception back then, is not our understanding of today.  Again God told Jeremiah he was conceived in his mother's "womb", and conception as we know it does not take place in the womb. (It takes place in the fallopian tubes.)  So if we are being literal with the Jeremiah reference, life wouldn't begin at scientific conception.


Some of you also addressed the identical twins and human chimerism problems.  Ultimately alluding that God already worked the details out and the process still begins at conception.  We could say this, that God already has the details worked out.  However, there is a third issue I will now bring up.  Many zygotes never successfully implant themselves on the uterine wall.  Unlike miscarriages where something happens to the fetus, the actual fertilized cell just never implants itself in the womb.  So it's lost in the menstruation cycle, and no one ever knows it existed at all.  If life does indeed begin at conception, which includes God placing the spirit of a person inside the fertilized egg, there are countless amounts of people who have died and no one ever knew nor mourned.

 

13 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

When do you think an individual's life begins?

 

Hi, to "amplify" on that question I have to answer with a question; When did God first know me?

Amplified Bible
"just as [in His love] He chose us in Christ [actually selected us for Himself as His own] before the foundation of the world, so that we would be holy [that is, consecrated, set apart for Him, purpose-driven] and blameless in His sight. In love"

My life was established, began when God knew of me.

Of course even with this, we still had a beginning.  What does it mean for God to know us before we were conceived or before the foundation of the world?  Because God is our Creator, it could mean a couple of things.  If I was a great inventor and decided to build a robot, I would have written out all the schematics of that robot, detailing how it would work, it's purpose and so forth.  I would know that robot intimately, before I tightened in it's first screw.  So it could be like that for God concerning us.  He had a plan for each and every one of us, what we were designed to do and our purpose.  Now, I'm not saying we are robots, but I believe this is an accurate portrait.  Now if our life began the moment God knew us from a conceptual standpoint, we could then argue we always existed just like God.  Why?  Because when was there ever a moment God didn't know something?  And this goes down a different rabbit hole for another topic.

[Luther]

12 hours ago, Hinds Feet said:

So, this thread doesn't concern the topic of abortion.  I would say very clearly life is present by the time a woman finds out she's pregnant.  No, this thread is about what time specifically does a person's life come into existence?  Scripturally speaking, when do you speculate it might happen?


Of course the popular phrase is "life begins at conception".  However, if we are talking about scientific conception (fertilized egg cell), there are many problems with that saying.  And by this I mean spiritual problems.  Take for instance the existence of identical twins.  Identical twins are the result of one zygote (fertilized egg) splitting into two separate embryo cells.  If a person's life began at conception, identical twins would essentially be sharing the same soul and or spirit.  There's also the case of human chimerism where two different zygotes (two separate fertilized eggs) fuse together into one embryo.  For such a person as this, they would essentially have two souls and or spirits in their single body.  So these are a couple of problems with life beginning at scientific conception.


Here is what I say, Scripturally speaking.  We are told by God that the life of all living creatures, is in the blood.  Genesis 9:4-5 states....


"But you must not eat meat with its lifeblood still in it.  And surely I will require the life of any man or beast by whose hand your lifeblood is shed. I will demand an accounting from anyone who takes the life of his fellow man:".......


This is what I figure.  We don't know specifically when an individual's life begins.  However, at the stage where blood is present in the newly forming human, we can be assured life is there.  So this happens, according to our best science, around 2 weeks after conception.  Also, another reason why I argue life doesn't begin at conception is Adam's own creation.  God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.  Even though Adam's body was fully developed, Adam didn't become alive until God breathed into him the breath of life.  Now obviously this is spiritual in nature, and Adam officially became a living person.  I believe it is very much similar in terms of new life today.  At conception, the beginnings of a body take place, but there is no spirit/soul attached to it.  Then sometime after two weeks of development, God places an individual's spirit into the newly forming body.  This is when life begins.

Interesting. God knew us before this world began. In a spiritual sense our lives began even before conception, "on paper", so to speak. Could our souls have been waiting for the time that we are conceived? Where did that soul come from? It leaves us after we die and hopefully reunites with God. Maybe our " soul life " was before this world began as well. 

[Hinds Feet]

2 minutes ago, Luther said:

Interesting. God knew us before this world began. In a spiritual sense our lives began even before conception, "on paper", so to speak. Could our souls have been waiting for the time that we are conceived? Where did that soul come from? It leaves us after we die and hopefully reunites with God. Maybe our " soul life " was before this world began as well. 

I definitely hear you.  I don't believe there is evidence in Scripture to say our spirit/and or souls existed before the foundations of the world.  I would agree to your on paper analogy.  I would say our actual existence began sometime in our mother's womb.

[Luther]

6 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

I definitely hear you.  I don't believe there is evidence in Scripture to say our spirit/and or souls existed before the foundations of the world.  I would agree to your on paper analogy.  I would say our actual existence began sometime in our mother's womb.

Yes.  When an opportunity arises I like to say that God knows exactly how many of us will be brought into this world, how many children we will have. When a newly married couple says something like " well we won't have any children now because of our financial situation" or " We only want two kids", I think to myself.....God will decide....He knows.

[Luther]

58 minutes ago, Hinds Feet said:

Thanks everyone for your responses!  I hear everyone, but I also can't help but wonder are we taking things for granted and just having the traditional view that is not necessarily based on anything in Scripture? (That is perhaps a man driven tradition)  I believe the way I view this question is more so from the spiritual side, than just the physical.  So that it is the spirit/and or soul of a person, that is the real person.  The egg and sperm cells are physical things that we see, and the newly formed cell they become is again something that is physical.  On the back end of life, Scripture tells us when a person dies, their spirit leaves the body.  The presence of the body we still have, but the person is not there.  The real essence of that person is elsewhere. (Heaven or Hell)  Jesus even tells us what good does it do us to gain the whole world, and yet lose his soul?  For me, all this points to the spirt/and or soul as being the real individual, or at least their core.  If this is true, then I speculate perhaps life happens not at conception, but sometime later when the newly forming mass of cells implant itself onto the uterine wall of a woman. 
 

I would say the main verse we use to say life begins at conception, is where God tells Jeremiah that before he was "conceived" in his mother's womb, He knew him.  Now, we must understand the people's idea of conception back then, is not our understanding of today.  Again God told Jeremiah he was conceived in his mother's "womb", and conception as we know it does not take place in the womb. (It takes place in the fallopian tubes.)  So if we are being literal with the Jeremiah reference, life wouldn't begin at scientific conception.


Some of you also addressed the identical twins and human chimerism problems.  Ultimately alluding that God already worked the details out and the process still begins at conception.  We could say this, that God already has the details worked out.  However, there is a third issue I will now bring up.  Many zygotes never successfully implant themselves on the uterine wall.  Unlike miscarriages where something happens to the fetus, the actual fertilized cell just never implants itself in the womb.  So it's lost in the menstruation cycle, and no one ever knows it existed at all.  If life does indeed begin at conception, which includes God placing the spirit of a person inside the fertilized egg, there are countless amounts of people who have died and no one ever knew nor mourned.

 

Of course even with this, we still had a beginning.  What does it mean for God to know us before we were conceived or before the foundation of the world?  Because God is our Creator, it could mean a couple of things.  If I was a great inventor and decided to build a robot, I would have written out all the schematics of that robot, detailing how it would work, it's purpose and so forth.  I would know that robot intimately, before I tightened in it's first screw.  So it could be like that for God concerning us.  He had a plan for each and every one of us, what we were designed to do and our purpose.  Now, I'm not saying we are robots, but I believe this is an accurate portrait.  Now if our life began the moment God knew us from a conceptual standpoint, we could then argue we always existed just like God.  Why?  Because when was there ever a moment God didn't know something?  And this goes down a different rabbit hole for another topic.

It's a great topic. You mentioned Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

" I knew thee" God would already even know what we do with our free will, yet he does not control us ( like a robot as you said). Ultimately  He delights in us when we delight in Him, because we could exercise our will wanting to be closer to Him or not. We make those decisions each day in our sinful flesh, in an ant- Christ world.

[missmuffet]

Psalm 139: 13-16

For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
¹⁴ I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
¹⁵ My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
¹⁶ Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

Edited December 1, 2024 by missmuffet

[Neighbor]

God foreknew and predestined all those that are to be conformed to the image of his son. “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”

Do what you wish in trying to make that into those foreknown and predestined  also being robots. It is still what the Bible declares to be the case.

To make it personal when did God foreknow and predestine me if He knew  me from before the beginning? I say my life began before time itself, that it has been manifested by God alone to bring me about in the flesh for a time, a time that is measured only in the time I am earthbound,  a mere twinkling as  compared to eternity outside the limits of earthbound timings or any concept of time itself.

If that makes me a robot so be it, I am one with much latitude a kind of what we now call AI I guess.

[missmuffet]

31 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

God foreknew and predestined all those that are to be conformed to the image of his son. “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”

Do what you wish in trying to make that into those foreknown and predestined  also being robots. It is still what the Bible declares to be the case.

To make it personal when did God foreknow and predestine me if He knew  me from before the beginning? I say my life began before time itself, that it has been manifested by God alone to bring me about in the flesh for a time, a time that is measured only in the time I am earthbound,  a mere twinkling as  compared to eternity outside the limits of earthbound timings or any concept of time itself.

If that makes me a robot so be it, I am one with much latitude a kind of what we now call AI I guess.

God knew what He was doing when He created us. Why argue over predestined arguments? We trust

in what God does and we really don't have a understanding a lot of the time why He

does what he does. So I just leave it to God